I like this guy. I love his approach, specifically how he addresses the direction you will be facing as you work.

Thanks to many people on this forum, as I was reading I was thrilled that a good majority of the key points he mentioned, I have incorporated into my kitchen design, right down to my bumped out windowsill counter that leaves plenty of room for a nice herb garden - and more space just outside the back door for potted plants on the patio, not to mention that the window overlooks a flowering dogwood and my actual garden.

Thanks for bringing this article to my attention.

I think the eating while standing thing is kindof cool if you have the room, but I think an island may provide that anyway. I find people are just as likely to stand at my island as they are to sit.

I would disagree a little. I don't think we look enough at the social characteristics of kitchens - we're great on keeping pathways out of THE WORK AREA (we haven't quite given up that triangle) and efficiency but not so good on having rooms where the cooks have a lot of interaction with each other, the family and friends or the outside world.

I like his multiple height surfaces, the roundness surrounding his islands and the soft shapes. I LOVE the carpentry. I like a lot of his thoughts and writings, but I don't know what I think about his kitchens having never been in one. I'd like to try using one. (If someone would just step up to pay for it?)

I don't care for eating standing up either. I can understand using a food bar for family meal service - as in a buffet where each person fills their plate and then takes it to a table. But some of what he described sounded like eating at a mall with leaning counters. Yick!

I am new to this forum, and not familiar with his work. It sounds like he is British? One thing I have noted, based on having many British relatives, is that the British and American cultures are still quite different when it comes to family structure and eating - but then again, there are vast differences in the United States. Maybe it all comes down to how your particular family works!

For my family - we always eat dinner at the table, as a family. In fact, we have breakfast together as a family most days too. It is the critical time for us to talk and spend time together. For this reason, the placement of the kitchen table and even the type of kitchen table that we have is critical to me.

One thing I wondered - when he commented that it is ideal for the cook to be facing out when cooking - does this mean he is an advocate of the cook top being on an island? This forum seems to hate cooktops on islands from a functionality standpoint. I have a cooktop on my current island, and it uses so much work space. But, I can see out into the kitchen when I am cooking, which is nice. In my next house, it looks like we will have a range that is on a wall. My sink will probably be on the island, with a view through the windows behind the breakfast table, so I will have a nice garden view despite the fact that the sink will be on the island.

Very interesting article, thanks for pointing it out!

While I do not like to eat standing up, my DH and DS do it all the time. I hope by adding an island with stools they will sit down. My teenage son also eats without dishes. I am forever saying "please get a plate or bowl". He stands or walks around eating sandwishes, toast, snacks, etc. all without a plate. He says the dog will eat the crumbs. He also drinks without cups...Now if Johnny could only design a kitchen for that issue : )

I don't buy that having a "food bar" helps "keep the family together for eating." Anyone standing while eating wants to finish quickly and move on to something else-like bolting out the door, etc. I think having a food bar would actually encourage social deconstruction. It's not at all the same interaction as nibbling at appetizers at a cocktail party.

I do agree that overbuilt kitchens can give a closed-in feeling. And that less furniture could be more functional, if well-designed.

"What is very clear to me is that when you are prepping or cooking you should face into the room. Any kitchen that does not have that is, in my opinion, disobeying the core laws of human emotional needs."

The direction the cook faces when working is my personal hot button! That was my #1 criteria when planning my kitchen -- that I have a great place to work with a nice view. No wall-facing for me!

I agree with ThingsThatInspire that this forum tends to have a bias against island cooktops. (And there are some valid arguments against them -- venting, additional safety conerns.) But once you handle those disadvantages, an island cooktop can be fabulous. I love working in my own arrangement, which has an island prep sink and prep counter next to an island cooktop with an overhead vent. Yes, it's a lot of island -- but it keeps me in the thick of all the socializing and also defines a "cook's zone" that welcomes visitors to the periphery but keeps them out of my way.

That's pretty cool that Elizabeth David is his aunt.

Interesting that the kitchen photo featured, has a stove that doesn't face out.

I have one of his books and I learned alot from it. Although naturally, not everything worked for me. I can't stand eating standing up, for example. At cocktail parties, I always try to find a place to sit for the nibbling. As to facing the crowd when cooking. I dunno, maybe. I kind of like that I can "tune out" for a second and focus on the cooking, then turn right around and socialize again. Or they can stand next to me and socialize while I'm stirring or even help. Everyone's in the kitchen anyway, do I really have to be facing them every waking moment?

I do have to admit though that it's fun as a GUEST to have the cook facing out. Like on a stage. Especially with friends who can do the cool pan flip thing.

I also noticed that the kitchen featured has the range against the wall.

I never really encountered the bias against island cooking until GW either, not in design school, not in kitchen books that I have accumulated (except the limitations of venting in that location)

I sometimes eat standing up but I am not sure that I would dedicate an area to promoting it. However I did notice more standing areas for eating in London fooderies when I was there (compared to say, NYC), and even the seating at the McDonalds near Leicester Square was slanted forward so you had to plant your feet to stay "seated" --they clearly want you "out". (McDs in particular was early 1990s so it may have changed since then)

I had the range turned into the room and I loved it. After all the window changes, I couldn't pull that off again (kept running out of room). I will miss it and would definitely do it again.

For me, it wasn't about chef as entertainment - most cooking is for dh, followed by family. It might have something to do with where prep is and what kinds of things you cook... I seem to spend a lot of time hanging out out range-side doing this and that.

I think edge-on social space, to the cook's side without a tall intervening object, is ok.

I know lots of people who do the "stand and eat" thing. It's usually for lunch or snacks, not dinner. Running out the door for breakfast, and you do the wrap or toast sandwich. Or you do the quick "grazing" of leftovers out of the fridge while you're doing housework on your day off. I think these people, including me, still take time for a more traditional sit down type of dinner, but for breakfasts and lunches, I've got things I need to do and places I need to be and don't really take time to sit down to eat unless it's in the car on the way somewhere. That's why I've begun to routinely suggest incorporating a "snack area" into a kitchen. It doesn't have to be more than a small stretch of counter next to the fridge with paper towels and a MW. But, that's how much of America eats and runs!

Good. I'm glad you all enjoyed the article.

Bmore, did you 'disagree a little' with the article? Or with my saying we use his ideas here a lot? (I figure the latter, and you meant we should think in the social framework more. And I agree with that.)

In addition to the social emphasis and debunking the 'work triangle', my other favorite part was his promoting a pantry as a cost saver. Well placed and well done, a pantry can do the work of 10 cabinets. But since design trends are driven by industry (and cabinet maker profit), I'm not expecting magazines will ever promote building pantries over buying cabinets.

Guess we'd have to spark that revolution from here...

Thanks for posting the link, celticmoon, very interesting article. I agree with the posters who said they don't get the eating standing up for meals thing, neither do I, but one thing I have noticed is that as my kid gets older (she's now 11), we can eat a little later, so often we have hors d'oeuvres (read: olives, veggies and dip, cheese and crackers, etc., not clams casino), even on a school night, to keep body and soul together while we cook. Those seem to land on the hutch that sits just out of the work area, so the cook, the kid, the partner and any guests can nibble while hanging around the kitchen (and often standing up!).

I love our pantry, and our minimal uppers, our windows in the kitchen and the notion that a kitchen doesn't have to be a top heavy room full of cabs in which stuff gets lost. I was imbued with that notion from this forum (over the past 6 or so years) and I will be forever grateful to all those who share their pics, ideas and links.

sandyponder

I have a library copy of Johnny Grey's book "Kitchen Culture". Although I don't care for his rounded cabinets and tables, or the multiple height counters - just a personal taste thing - I do like some of his analyses about kitchens working as a space related to the rest of the house. He has a good section in the book on ergonomics and also a good diagram laying out the maximum desirable runs between various kitchen elements. It's an interesting book, as it's very different from the standard (American) kitchen books in my library - a lot more psychology and musing.

I have to admit that I was never a huge Johnny Grey fan. Didn't dislike him, but also never felt all of his ideas or his designs were for everyone.

It'd be difficult (impossible) to have a kitchen in which you could face out while doing everything...so when we have to choose between prepping or cooking, it often seems prepping is more the task that one can do while also having a conversation, so I think that's one reason why the forum leans more toward the range on the wall, and the prep facing the adoring crowds. :-) That, and the venting issue, which people here feel strongly about. It also takes more room to put a stove on the island than a prep sink..and an island, since surrounded by other things, can't always be very large. He did say 'prepping or cooking' so I don't see a strong mandate for island stoves in his words.

I don't think we've given up the triangle, or are holding onto it either...but instead have added more to it, or maybe have a set of triangles and rectangles instead of the 1. Those original 3 parts of the triangle are still important.

Standing while eating to be together as a family? No, thanks. I agree with those who say standing is a hurrying thing, not the same as 'sit and talk to me awhile about your day.' Every nutrition and diet book discourages standing and eating...A way to shove in too much, or the wrong thing without thinking about it, taking the time to realize one is full, or even taking the time to chew sometimes! It happens, but I'm unlikely to plan a kitchen that encourages it.

I certainly am all for natural light, air circulation, and the connection with outside.

Ha! My architect is a huge Johnny Grey fan and based many of his design ideas on Grey's principles for kitchen design (not many cabinets, staying in touch with your corners, and a large dresser for pantry/storage). Many of those ideas - shot down! :-) No worries, I still plan on incorporating many of the ideas into my kitchen (after all, it's a funky space, no getting around that).

I do dislike Grey's aesthetic though - all the curves and inlays and random height changes seem somewhat *dated* to me. I also didn't like the colors in the books my architect gave me to look through. Very 80's jewel tones. I wonder what Grey current color palette looks like.

I've tried to see what Grey says in terms of aisle width, because I am telling you, getting my architect to see the wisdom of 42" aisles proved very difficult. In fact, he just doesn't see the value of them *at all*! Somehow my architect also thinks that many people can work quite well and be social in a much smaller place than do most GW-ers.

My favorite kitchen in Grey's book wasn't his at all, but rather his aunt's. And that was before he "updated it" because she was a touch embarrassed about its homely nature. I thought it charming, actually.