If you want to qualify for the tax credit, you'll want to look into Carrier's products (25HCB5, 25HPA5, 25HNA9). The Infinity is a nice system with many comfort features but it shouldn't be bought on efficiency alone and rather more for its comfort advantages. If humidity is a concern for you, you'll either want a good single stage unit with a good thermostat to control humidity, or a 2-stage unit such as the Carrier Infinity. As for heat, you'll want to bring this up to your contractor, as maybe more electric heat strip kW are needed (not sure what you have now, one is quoting 8 kW and the other 10 kW). I prefer Trane products over Carrier products for personal preference (especially in coastal environments, Trane units just hold up better), but Carrier's new products appear to be very good and should do the job well and give you the tax credit.

Are the Carrier quotes from the same dealer? Looks like the Infinity 19 proposal includes the most thorough scope of work. No matter which route you go make sure you get your ductwork inspected since this is step 1 to a well-performing and efficient system; it needs to be properly sized to deliver 4 tons of air. The variable speed blower can help. The fact that your 4 ton has done well for 16 years and maintain 70 degrees suggests your current setup is probably on target.

I think 2 stage cooling systems are overrated, especially those with the unloading scroll where low isn't that much less than high.

In the Trane family, the 15i is the only real good heating unit. The 16i is very weak at heating.

The Infinity control is superb for dehumidification. Next would be putting the 900 on a communicating Trane or a Vision Pro IAQ on a 15i with variable speed blower.

My vote would be the 15 SEER Carrier but with Infinity control. Put the money you saved into windows, tinting, insulation, etc.

Man, you guys are great, I just found an informative post by ryanhughes and tigerdunes from the middle of march with some very specific model numbers for the Comfort 13 and Performance 15 4 ton Carrier units coupled with infinity handlers and the regular variable speed/thermidistat system. Also info about the "H" model and "A" model and the tinned coils. You confirmed my suspicions about the dual stage/twin compressor units. I am a firm believer in keeping it simple.

Most of the contractors made some suggestions regarding sealing the ducts that are apparently cooling our attic. One contractor suggested increasing duct size at the two far ends of the line that supply the two far rooms on opposite ends of the house. Another contractor suggested adding a return to those two far rooms. I think I remember something about the duct size should be reduced as it travels further from the A/H for backpressure???? those two rooms are always warmest in summer, coldest in winter.

25HPA548H30 FV4BNB006T00 Performance 15, Var. speed A/H, thermidistat
25HPA548H30 FE4ANB006T00 Performance 15, Infinity A/H & stat
25HCB348A30 FV4BNB006T00 Comfort 13, Var. speed A/H, thermidistst

I just wanted to be sure I had the models correct and I will get my quotes tomorrow. My local Carrier dealers never mentioned the Performance series to my wife. I want to see how these systems price out and then compare them with the Trane.

In case I run into the "special order" issue with the "H" units, how much of a difference do you think that will truly make?

Thanks a million for taking time out of your Sunday.

"I am a firm believer in keeping it simple." - I myself and many others agree. I would take a reliable, quality single stage unit with good controls anyday, especially with the premium 2-stage units often carry.

Regarding the ducts: probably one of the most important, if not the most important, aspects of the system. You'll want the ducts sealed well for performance and efficiency. For the warm/cool rooms, returns can really make a difference if that's what's needed.

The "H" revision Performance heat pumps were really geared toward climates where heating is a big thing. In your area, having a little less HSPF (heating efficiency) to me shouldn't be a big problem, especially when any new unit you get will be better than what you have, just about. The "H" revision models in some sizes can also be a bit louder, though not significantly. In other words, if the "H" models can't be ordered or obtained as easily, no issues with going with the standard revision if you ask me.

With that said, I'd look at the following two setups in particular:

Carrier Comfort 13 Puron Heat Pump:
- 25HCB348A003
- FV4BNB006T00 (tin-plated)
- 10 kW heater package or similar
- Carrier Thermidistat TP-PRH (controls humidity)

Carrier Performance 15 Puron Heat Pump:
- 25HPA542(A/H)003
- FV4BNB006T00
- 10 kW heater package or similar
- Carrier Thermidistat TP-PRH

** You could always use the Infinity controls (and the Performance units can even do the Infinity diagnostics) by using the Infinity controller and substituting the air handler for the FE4ANB006T00.

boat

I prefer Trane for a coastal/salt water environment. But it is clear this brand is falling behind in performance/efficiency numbers. I don't believe there are any four ton Trane HP systems with air handlers that qualify for the tax credit.

Here are several Carrier configurations and all qualify.

1158713 Active Systems INFINITY 19 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA948A30 FE4ANB006+UI 46500 12.60 16.80 48000 9.30 26800

903980 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548A30 FV4BNB006 48000 13.00 15.50 47000 8.70 29400

1258753 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548A30 FE4ANB006+UI 48000 13.00 15.50 47000 8.70 29400 1

1125973 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548H30 FE4ANB006+UI 48000 13.00 15.50 48000 9.00 30000

1125975 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548H30 FV4BNB006 48000 13.00 15.50 48000 9.00 30000 1

3034540 Active Systems COMFORT 13 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCB348A30 FV4BNB006 48000 12.50 15.50 46000 8.80 29400 1

I really don't believe the "H" mdl Performance 15 is a big deal considering your area/climate since AC is more important than heating. But you definitely want the tin plated coil in air handler.

IMO
Good Luck!

the 15i with an appropriate air hanlder does qualify for stimulus $$$$.

andre

show me where a four ton 15i with air handler qualifies for the Fed Tax credit. I just looked at the AHRI HP directory and did not see any.

TD

My appologies tiger, I have a 3 ton...wow I assumed the technolgy would trascend the tonnage...so a 4 ton unit can not be as efficient as a 3T thus no rebate....that stinks...maybe the person is better off with 2 zones and two smaller units...ehh proabaly costs more than the rebate would save them.

andre

anything above a three ton with Trane pumps and the efficiency numbers really drop off. not so with Carrier products and clearly Trane is falling behind. that is why I hear that Trane dealers have chopped their prices when competing against larger Carrier sizes because so many of their configurations do not qualify for the so called HVAC stimulus-ie tax credit.

IMO

wow...sounds like someone's head should roll...probably loosing a ot of business.

And I thought this was going to be easy once I knew my model #'s and knew exactly what I wanted. I believe ryanhughes made a small typo on the Carrier Performance 15 and should be a 48 instead of 42 for the Condenser.

Anyway, one of the salesman got back to me and quoted a comfort 13 and comfort 15 and did not even address my request for quotes on the Performance series. He also told me the infinity controls work only with the infinity outside units. I also checked the Carrier website and they state that the Performance series IS compatible with infinity controls and the comfort series is not.

Arrrgh...salesmen.

Infinity control can be used with a Comfort unit if you really wanted to. The indoor portion is what matters (FE4A air handler). Only thing the Performance gets you is the Infinity "diagnostics."

boat

there is nothing wrong with the Carrier Comfort series if your decision is based on a budget consideration and you don't expect to live in home for foreseeable future. However, it would be a waste to pair with an Infinity air handler/control. Stick with the Performance var speed air handler and Carrier thermidistat.

You have a rare opportunity though to get a better system with the tax credit. Since AC is more important than heating based on your area/climate, I would stick with the Performance 15 "A" model version and go with one of the configurations below.

903980 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548A30 FV4BNB006 48000 13.00 15.50 47000 8.70 29400

1258753 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548A30 FE4ANB006+UI 48000 13.00 15.50 47000 8.70 29400

you will need a new refrigerant lineset and you do want the "T" tin plated coil in air handler.

I would expect price difference between the two systems to be in the $1K range.

IMO
Good Luck!

Tigerdunes... am I reading you right? I'm just a satisfied homeowner, but shouldn't he go with the Infinity controller w/ what you just detailed?

I mean, the humidity and comfort control and diagnostics are awesome compared to the Thermidistat, and worth the extra dollars.

dallasbill

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

My point is you get the exact same AHRI performance/efficiency numbers with the Performance 15 "A" mdl version whether paired with the Performance var speed or Infinity air handler.

No doubt the Infinity controller/stat is the best on the residential market. Customer has to decide if he wants the upcharge that comes with the Infinity air handler and Infinity controller. A nice choice and decision to make on two very good configurations.

IMO

Gotcha -- makes sense!

I've got a similar dilemma --
Had a 2-ton York heat pump that died after 5 1/2 years -- fried compressor. We need to put in a larger unit anyway, since we put on an 800 sq ft addition this winter.
Our specs: 1970's single story ranch; 1800 sq ft on main level, 1000 sq ft basement (700 finished), with 800 sq ft insulated/concrete crawl space under addition.
We live in South Dakota, so winters can get awfully cold, and summers are hot and humid.

We've gotten multiple quotes for heat pumps and have narrowed it down to two units we're seriously considering. Any advice/experience with these or similar units would be most appreciated. Wondering if one is superior to the other as far as problems/service calls in the long-term.

Carrier Infinity 3-ton
Trane XL16i 3-ton

both would be installed with variable speed 3-ton electric auxiliary heat units in basement of house. We've been told we need to install larger ductwork leading out of the air handler to increase the efficiency of the unit and decrease the risk of strain on the system. We don't want to end up needing to replace another system in 5 years, but we also don't want to end up doing more work than is necessary.

thanks for the opinions

"We've been told we need to install larger ductwork leading out of the air handler to increase the efficiency of the unit and decrease the risk of strain on the system."

Yes, that very strain is likely what caused the previous compressor to fail. Many ductwork systems are undersized, leading to poor airflow (poor return air and supply air). This could have very likely been the case with the old unit, and increasing tonnage will only make it worse if ductwork is not addressed.

I would pick the Carrier Infinity with matching indoor unit and control over the Trane XL16i for sure. The XL16i is not great at heating or the best at dehumidification compared to the Infinity system. The Infinity, depending on the model you get, in the 16 SEER model runs around 50% on low stage, meaning longer runtimes and more dehumidification. The 19 SEER model (would not actually be 19 SEER in 3 ton size) runs more around 70-75% capacity.

We're talking $2000 difference in price between the carrier and trane. Is the carrier worth the difference? I understand the trane may not heat as efficiently, but either system is an improvement over what we had -- I want the system that will best suit our needs without going overboard on cost, features, etc...

If you want something more cost effective yet still reliable and good for comfort, I suggest dropping down to a good single stage unit with a good thermostat for humidity control. This would be the XL15i or the Carrier Performance 15 with a Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ thermostat (or the Carrier "Edge" thermidistat if going Carrier). I wouldn't consider the 2-stage XL16i if it were my house (I would consider the Carrier Infinity), because low stage is already around 75-80% capacity, so not much difference anyhow.

jim

it would be best if you start your own thread.

however,I agree with Ryan. I am not a fan of two stg condensers and for most homeowners they are not necessary. Two stg condensers marginally improve comfort and operating cost. I would not have Trane's XL16i period.

I also recommend Carrier's Performance 15 "H" mdl HP condenser(or sister company Bryant Preferred 15 "H" mdl). The "H" mdl provides better heating eff which is important for your area. Also you might want to take a look at Trane's XL15i and sister company mdl AmStd Heritage 15. All above are excellent units. Pair with best matching var speed air handler and thermidistat. All above qualify for tax credit.

IMO
Good Luck!

trane or carrier which is quiter?

Depends on what exact model and size you're looking at. The XL15i and Performance 15 are both very quiet and comparable.