I purchased an XV95 (100k btu and XL15i AC 4-ton back in april 2008 for 2800 sq. ft. house in NJ. I don't know the breakout I was only quoted a total price of $9800 before rebates which were $700 from utility company and $300 from trane so my net cost was $8800 where $200 was for the humidifier.

This price included the TC803 Tstat which is the top out of that T800 series, a 5-ton ADP e-coil was included, a run of 30 ft 3-inch PVC dual pipe out the side of my home with a dual pipe cover to keep birds out, a chimney liner, a new plenum, new line set, 410A refrigerant,removal of old equipment, 10 year parts warranty, 2 year labor warranty.
Key1

What coil model number, if any, was provided with the air conditioner? I'd prefer the matching Trane coil; sometimes 3rd party coils are used to save money on the dealer's end.

If they want to do ductwork changes, chances are it's a real good idea. No system will get optimum performance without the proper ductwork necessary, so there is a chance that your return air situation needs to be taken care of (especially if only one return), and good for the contractor for pointing that out. Key1CC (above) can tell you all about ductwork, as if I recall he too ran into some trouble with getting the ductwork to where it needed to be for the system to operate effectively.

Fairly steep price, but you're looking at good equipment, and the most important thing is that you find the right contractor to do the job--seems like you're happy and confident in this one. Would never heart to get at least 2 estimates on a job like this.

I'm checking on the coil for the AC. I'm sure it will be a Trane unit but it's good to double check.

I think the installer is being very careful about what they want to do and how they want to do the installation... as the person who did my quote is coming back out again on Thursday and he's bringing one of the techs with him.

The main problem seems to be our cold air return system, which only pulls air from near the top of the stairs to the 2nd level (next to the living room with a cathedral ceiling, so it's visible and audible). The ductwork from the grill is only 12" dia and that runs about 6 feet into the garage attic and then feeds into an 8x24 rectangular duct that goes from the garage to the laundry room where the furnace is located. With our current furnace this cold air return makes a lot of noise that is easily heard in the living room and elsewhere and is probably a restriction on the furnace, which does not have the ability to compensate for higher static pressure like new units do.

I do think the price is a bit high, but if I had a choice of a good installation at a bit higher price, or a poor installation at a bargain choice I know which one I'd choose.

Should know more on Thursday. I also had two Lennox guys out to the house. Both were nice, but don't think they took the job as seriously as the 3rd contractor as the 1st did not mention anything about reworking the cold air return, and the 2nd was even more expensive than the Trane quote, and frankly, too much of a salesman than a technician, which being an engineer myself, did not appeal to me.

Thanks for the information.

tom

several observations

1. I think your pricing is on the high side

2.I would substitute HW VisionPro IAQ for the stat your dealer is quoting.

3.I would substitute the AC condenser for the XL15i HP version. Don't you have inexpensive electric rate?

4.If accessibility is reasonable, ductwork changes/modifications should be relatively cheap.

The Trane equipment you are being quoted is certainly top end HVAC. Am Standard(Trane's sister company) has exact same equipment usually not as expensive. you should get another quote.

IMO
Good Luck!

tigerdunes,

1. I agree the pricing seems high. I need to get another quote on Trane, and possibly Am Standard too.

2. I'll look into the IAQ thermostat.

3. I talked about a HP with all three guys. The 1st Lennox dealer wanted to sell me the G60V 80% variable speed furnace and a HP. Our temps are fairly mild, might only have one month below 30 degrees, and it's usually closer to 40 and up, and yes, I do believe our electricity is reasonable. I spoke with Puget Sound Energy, our gas and electric supplier, and they estimated a HP would save about $240/year.

2nd Lennox dealer gave me the option of a HP, but was still quoting a 95% furnace. This option did not make sense since the HP would supply almost all of the heat and the furnace would be a backup. That's kinda like leaving the Porsche sit in the garage for the very few days the Civic isn't running.

Trane dealer said 95% furnace and regular AC was the way to go and that it would take many years to get the payback on the HP. He casually mentioned something like $4000 more for the HP, but I know it's really less than $1000. Will talk to him again about this on Thursday.

4. Ductwork is pretty easy to get to. I have the whole lower level torn apart for a major remodel.

Thanks again for the input.

tom

If operating costs are important to you, then a high eff HP with 80% var speed furnace or even air handler would be a better choice than the XV95 with straight AC. Don't you have very reasonable electric rate for your area?

The HW VP IAQ stat has "dehumidify on demand" feature and if humidity is a concern in your area/climate, then this is the way to go.

"Trane dealer said 95% furnace and regular AC was the way to go and that it would take many years to get the payback on the HP. He casually mentioned something like $4000 more for the HP, but I know it's really less than $1000."
absolutely nonsense and makes me question the credibility of your dealer. The XL15i HP condenser should be no more than $750 if your dealer is not gouging you.

"That's kinda like leaving the Porsche sit in the garage for the very few days the Civic isn't running."
absolutely agree with that statement!

I am attaching a link for a fuel comparison calculator. run your numbers and decide for yourself.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Fuel Comparison Calculator

"Our temps are fairly mild, might only have one month below 30 degrees, and it's usually closer to 40 and up, and yes, I do believe our electricity is reasonable."

Tom:

TD is right. A heat pump condenser instead of straight a/c is the smart choice. Heat pumps make cheap heat. With your mild winters, very cheap heat. The 80% efficient gas back-up furnace won't be used much in your mild climates, and you save purchase $$ versus the 95% condensing furnace.

If you post your electric rate (cents per kw-hr), and gas rate ($ per therm or ccf), someone will run the costs for you for both fuels.

Good luck.

Gary, on the note of electric rates, how are your bills up in Baltimore? Neighbors and myself are paying upwards of $690/month (my bill was $730). It's outrageous. August alone myself and others used less than half of what we're using (kwh) this month. I know January was cold, but am puzzled by the strong increase. Pepco claims they haven't changed their rates.

At this point, I'd recommend the highest efficiency heat pump or air conditioner to anyone whose electric bills are on the rise.

Ryan:

For the month of January, I used a little over 2000 kw-hrs. At 15 cents per kw-hr delivered, my bill was $300. Similar 2000 kw-hr consumption for December '08.

Summer bills are rarely over $200/month. Many shoulder months are less than $100.

It's the aux heat usage when temps are in the 20's, plus aux for the defrost cycle, that hits the electric bill hard.

Take care.

These are my energy rates from my last bill:

Electric:
- 600 KWHS @ $0.084772 per KWH
- 159 KWHS @ $0.102581 per KWH
759 total used

Gas:
- 130.35 Therms @ $0.34039 for delivery
- 130.35 Therms @ $0.89776 for cost of gas

Average temp per day last mo, 40 F, last year 38 F, $240 bill
Average temp per day prev mo, 37 F, coldest mo so far, $300 bill

I don't really like the 80% variable speed because my furnace is in the laundry room next to the family room and it's noisy. The room also needs to be vented with a louvered door or other means, which is why I like the sealed combustion furnace. I also have a powerful (1500 CFM) exhaust vent up on the roof for a large hood for our new gas rangetop, and I don't want to pull combustion air from the furnace. Wondering if I need a make-up air solution...

Compare the cost of 1 million btu's of heat for heat pump and natural gas furnace with your rates.

Heat pump w/electricity at 10 cents per kw-hr delivered, C.O.P. = 3 at 35F ambient
(1,000,000 / 3414) x .10 / 3
= $9.76

90% efficient gas furnace w/gas at $1.24 per therm
(1,000,000 / 100,000) x 1.24 / .9
= $13.77

The heat pump costs 30% less for the same one million btu's of heat.

As the ambient temp increases from the 35F example, the COP increases, and the heat pump is even cheaper to run.

Take care.

Tom, you are on Puget Sound Energy. Same rates as I have. Going with a heat pump and natural gas furnace is the best solution. Yours is a little fancier than mine. I have a trane 14XLi Hp with a 90% furnace, all single stage. My aux heat is locked out until 25 degrees and the heat pump is locked out at 20. That's when only the furnace runs. Factory sets thermostat lockouts at 40 degrees no matter what part of the country you live in. Depending on your building envelope, windows, etc., the setbacks I have might not be for you. I would at least try locking out the HP at 25 and the aux heat at 30. If the HP can't keep up, go with 30 and 35 respectively.

I'm in Olympia.
My heating bills for this month was $216. Last month was $246.

I used 2115 KWH of electricity and 7.65 therms of natural gas this bill. Last month's bill I used 2248 KWH and 20.82 therms. That included Christmas lighting and holiday baking. My neighbors all pay between $85 and $200 more than I because of insulation I've added, adjusting the balance points of the HP, setbacks on the Honeywell IAQ thermostat (it's the best with this system) and a KVAR unit (9% measured savings).

I personally think it's a big mistake to go furnace and A/C.

Thanks allot speedymonk. That's great information. If I go with a HP, which now seems likely, I may go with an 80% variable speed furnace since those are quite a bit less costly. Otherwise I'll have to jump up to the 95% since Trane doesn't make a 90% in downdraft.

Our house is about 2300 sq ft. The downstairs has recent Andersen wood/vinyl double pane windows and French doors, and I'm thinking of using closed cell spray foam on the walls, which are down to the studs now. Ha, just getting some insulation back in and sheetrock should help a lot with the efficiency.

Tom

Tom, here are my Honeywell IAQ settings for temp

WAKE: 69

LEAVE: 67

RETURN: 70

SLEEP: 66

There three degree setback works really well.

That spray foam ismthe best. WIsh I would have thought of that when building my place. Wall R factor would have doubled.

Tom... on your noise problem. I just replaced my cold return register with a register grill that cutt about 75% of the noise out. Used to sound like a jet engine sucking air. Now it is very quiet. I think when I have the new service company do service work in the fall, I'll also have them look at the returns and possibly have them install another if needed.

My furnace, BTW is a 90% downdraft. XR 90 model. Builder originally tried to slip in builder grade heating stuff and that wasn't in the original specifications for the home. I ewanted energy star rated stuff and that's what I got. My unit is R-22 and not R-410. Missed by about a year.

tom

I hope you took notice of SpeedyMonk's gas usage. practically nothing. What's my point? Unless you just want a nat gas furnace for backup, a matching var speed air handler with a high eff HP is really a better choice. Why? Better overall operating costs. Now the only obstacle to that choice/system is whether your electric service/breaker panel has to be modified for electric strip heat backup. I still would suggest a quote on Carrier's Performance 15 "H" model HP that has more matchups that qualify for the Federal tax credit over the Trane Pumps. Just a couple of ideaa if you are so inclined.

IMO

I would have done things a little differently before I built the house had I known about this site and another HVAC site. Variable speed airhandler would have been nice.

I didn't go with the 15i because of the heating specs. The 14 was better. Learned that after the builder installed the builder grade that he wasn't supposed to install. There was only an $800 difference between the 14i and 15i (and something like $2,000 difference between the 14i and 16i as I recall) but it only improved cooling. In 20 years I'l know a little better.

MY ARI number is #1216945

EER 11.8
SEER 13.75
HSPF 8.5
Heating BTU @47F 39,000
Heating BTU @ 17F 25,000

If I went with a HP and air handler, is electric strip heating backup required, or would our 40,000 Btu/hr gas fireplace insert be sufficient to qualify as a backup heat source? The insert has not been installed yet so I don't know how effictive it is but they claim it can heat up to 2000 sq ft.

Interestingly, if I plug in all the specifics about our home and location into the Trane Customizer it recommends a XC95 furnace and XL19i AC for the Ultimate, and a XV95 and XL15i for Superior. No mention of a HP. I did the same with the Am Std calculator and got the same results, furnace and AC, no HP.

On paper, the HP looks better, but is it really? Are there other issues, such as rate of heating that just can not match a good furnace? A 3-ton HP just isn't going to have the heating capacity of a good furnace.

Thoughts?

The Trane specialist is coming back today for another look. Hope to make a decision soon.

Thanks.

Tom, we are in the absolute best location for a heat pump. I have no idea why this Trane dealer wants to saddle you with an A/C and a furnace. Our heating degree days outnumber our cooling degree days 58:1. We are in a heating climate.

Concerning the Trane customizer.. they recommended the top of the line furnace and heat pump. Suprise! The 19Xli is way overkill for this climate. It's weighted towards cooling.

I would go to your phone book and look up at least two other dealers (Trane) if you like Trane equipment. Get the people to do a Manual J. If they do an eyeball rule of thumb, show them the door. They should be taking measurements and it should take a little time. Also need a Manual D. You want your install done properly.

Your HP will heat sufficiently and yes, a fireplace insert can be used to heat the home for backup. I use mine when I want the room up to temperature faster. I did that when we had the high teens and low 20s.The HP had a harder time getting to the set point but once it got help from the fireplaces (or the furnace when I used it), it maintained the set temp just fine.

I should have gone with a variable speed air handler and an 80% furnace, but I didn't know about this or another HVAC site. I would have made some different choices. My system does just fine but I might have inquired about a 4 ton HP ( I have a 3.5 with a 4 ton coil)with a 4 or 5 ton coil if my heating specs improved (BTU heating specis should have). Would have to weigh possibility of short cycling vs. heating capacity. Not worried about cooling as the radiant barrier I installed really did the job. We only used the A/C perhaps an hour in the early evening to drop the humidity level when we got days in the high 80s and low 90s temps.

The heat pump is 3X efficient as electric heat strips or a straight electric furnace. With our electricity pricing vs. natural gas, the HP is the best choice.

"Interestingly, if I plug in all the specifics about our home and location into the Trane Customizer it recommends a XC95 furnace and XL19i AC for the Ultimate, and a XV95 and XL15i for Superior. No mention of a HP."

This combo represents the top-of-the line furnace and a/c. Makes the most $$ for Trane without consideration of your energy costs. The operating costs that I posted are real numbers, Trane's Customizer is a sales lure. Knowledgeable people on this site are trying to steer you in the right direction.

Good luck.

Trane dealer (via Home Depot) was out to the house again with another tech. They mainly wanted to confirm options for return air. Everyone that's been to the house agrees the return air system is undersized. I think we have a good handle on what can be done to improve it now. I am comfortable they would do an excellent installation, just not comfortable with the equipment choice right now.

Still seems like a HP and air handler would be the most efficient and cost quite a bit less than a $5000 95% condensing furnace and $5700 outdoor AC unit.

The Trane XL 16i HP has an HSPF of 9.2 and is two stage with a single compressor. If that were combined with a variable speed air handler I think it would make a very nice system. I like the idea of some kind of 2-stage unit as the short cycling we get with our single stage furnace is annoying.

Going to call another dealer today and see what they recommend and how their pricing compares. Would like to stick with the dealer partnering with HD if possible since I can do 12 mo, no interest on my HD CC.

Thanks for all the input, it's very valuable.

I would not recommend the XL16i heat pump. Check the heating output on this system: just a little over 3.5 tons for a 4 ton system (5-6000 btu's short). That means more work to heat the place assuming it's sized right and more electric backup heat usage. The HSPF means little to me if it has poor btu output. Also that's just the rated value. Your actual performance can vary greatly depending on ductwork and leaks, etc.

The XL15i would be a much better heat pump.

You could probably getting the rated BTU for tonnage with a 4 ton indoor compressor. Still a match. I would ask them to give you best indoor coil/furnace match with your outdoor unit (if it's a 3.5 ton.... they will know) to get the best heating output, SEER and HSPF. Don't let them just give you whatever they have in stock. If you need to wait to get what you want, then wait. Might as well do it right.

Ask to have the ARI certificate of performance. That will give the models of your components and the rated performance levels at 47F and 17F.

Monk with a heat pump and air handler 40-43,000 btu's is the most you're gonna get out of the 16i, and it's worse with a furnace and coil. A good heat pump should give you more for what you're paying for it. The XL15i is better, putting out around 50,000 btu's. These are the ratings, not necessarily what he'll see.

Ryan, yeah... I t looked at the ARI site and the 15i numbers were better. This is now R-410A as opposed to R-22 when I had mine. I saw those 50,000 BTU numbers and was drooling as opposed to my 36,000 BTU figures. Mine is 3.5 ton and the 50,000 I saw was for 4 ton.

My place is 2,981 sq. feet and 1.5 stories. The unit seem to heat and keep up, though. My lower bills are nice, too.

Ryan, I also noticed that my particular setup has the best numbers available for the 14i when the furnace is factored into the equation.

Had a 2nd Trane dealer out Friday. If their quote is reasonable I believe I will go with them as they seemed to know more than anyone else (been in business since 1959 and the guy that was at the house has worked for them for 25 years). Not sure what they will propose but should know by Monday. Think they will quote both HP + furnace or AC + furnace. He wasn't sure what they would recommend as he needed to check all the specs on the various models and come up with the best system.

Not entirely sure a HP is the way to go even if it does save energy. They run a lot different than a furnace and I was told some people don't like what they feel is low output air temperature, of say 95 F, versus a furnace of maybe 135 F.

May just depend on the price, rebates and tax credits available which turns out to be better. Trane is running a special on the Clean Effects air system at 1/2 off, normally $1200 for $600. Not sure this is worth it since I already have a Honeywell 300 EAC which I would then want to sell, but the stats on the Clean Effects sure look impressive.

Will know more Monday.

As an aside, I read in the paper that the new so-called stimulus bill has up to $1500 tax credits for installation of doors, windows, and energy efficient furnaces, etc. Anyone seen anything more specific?

Thanks.

Tom, you are correct about the lower output temps. I've had a heat pump for over 20 years now and wouldn't go back, especially in tis climate. Yes, they run longer than does a furnace. With a smart thermostat like the Honeywell IAQ, your home will be at temp when you need it. Despite the longer run times, your bills will be lower. See y earlier post on what I paid. And, my home is 600 sq ft. larger. Also a "greener" solution than fossil fuels alone.

If nothing else, you know what has been happening with our power rates. And with Puget Sound Energy being purchased by the Australians and Canadians, the rates aren't going to go down.

Electricity s simply cheaper for us. My therm cost based on 80 therms of gas used (which I have never used that much) is $1.37 with all charges, taxes, etc. Yours is close to that. Maybe slightly lower because your volume is higher. However, I don't know what taxes you pay on that portion of the bill.

I'm sure your dealer will give you all the facts. I'll be suprised if he recommends furnace and A/C. The heat pump gives you both heat and A/C .... and we are in a heating climate by 58:1 HDD based on 65 degrees. Info courtesy of Weather Underground.

Keep us posted, please. Ryan was correct. That 15Xli HP has better heat output than the 16xli. Also depends on the indor coil match. Make sure he quotes you the best match and when installed, make sure that's what you get. The 410A refrigerant is better than the R-22 I was compared against.

If the cost for the HP is a reasonable delta that would be the way to go. With two, essentially independent heating systems the chances of them both being down at the same time for maintenance are more remote. The tech did say the HP is more finicky though and should be checked annually, whereas the furnace could be semi-annual. For HP installations they use the Trane version of the Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ.

Also, having heating based on either gas or electric hedges my bets for the future pricing on utility costs. You never know, the Bonneville Power Administration might decide they need to raise electric rates more than the gas company.

It's always a good idea to have an annual inspection/service done on your HP or furnace. Keep them clean and they work better. Regular filter changes, etc. It also keeps the warranty intact. No reguylar service and smething goes wrong and there's an expensive part to replace, you might be on your own.

And in these cases, the extended parts and labor warranty is a good thing. Some companies tack them on as a mater of course. It's worth it. Mine cost $493 for the HP, air handler and furnace combination. If I lose a compressor in 10 years, it's no cost vs. perhaps a grand (parts and labor). Cheap insurance for a system that is not exactly cheap to buy.

BTW: it was 30 degrees this morning. My heat pump brought the 2,981 sq. foot house up to temp inside of three hours. That's about a degree an hour and still cheaper than a furnace. If I wanted it faster (and for more money), I could have opted for either the furnace or the fireplaces to bring it up. The thermostat knows how long it takes vs. outside temp. It "learns" as it goes. When I got up, the house was at temp.

Finally got the quote from the 2nd Trane dealer:

Furnace:

XV95 + Honeywell VisionPro IAQ, new air supply ducting to upstairs bedroom, new cold air return on main - $5865.
Furnace Model No. TDH2B080A9V3VA

This has an output of 49,400/76,000 BTUH for stage 1 and 2.
My current 80% AFUE Heil is rated 75,000 BTUH input, so this XV95 has at least 25% more heating capacity.

Heat Pump Option:
XL15i - $5905 complete.
Model No. 4TWX5036B1000A (3 ton capacity, house is 2300 sq ft, 2-story)

Installed with Trane Coil, Model No. 4TXXCB036BC3HCA
(other dealer quoted a 4TXCB036BC3HCA, so maybe the above is a typo?)

ARI Ref# 1384223

Cooling Capacity, 34800
EER (cooling), 11.40
SEER (cooling), 13.5
Heating Capacity @ 47F, 37200
Region IV HSPF (heating), 8.3
Heating Capacity @17F, 24200

This doesn't exactly look like a very stellar system combination for the price as none of the specs on the HP/coil combo would qualify it for the $1500 tax credit. I do believe the XV95 would qualify however.

The other problem is I don't think the furnace or the HP would qualify for our local utility rebate of $350 since you can't get the rebate on a 90%+ furnace if installed as a backup system with a HP, and I don't think the HP listed here would qualify on it's own. Guess I would have to install the furnace and coil 1st, claim the rebate, then install the HP or AC if I felt like it.

It's all too damn confusing. Pricing from all the dealers is pretty close, but the quotes are not exactly apples to apples so it is a bit hard to judge.

I thought the XL15i had much better efficiency ratings that listed above. Think I need a quote on an AC unit instead of the HP as I still don't like the idea of the 95% AFUE furnace just sitting there most of the time.

Would love any input or suggestions.

Your dealer quoted you a 3 ton HP and a 3 ton coil. What happens to your heating numbers is you go with a 4 ton indor coil? I think they'll be better. I don't remember if they make a 3.5 ton indor coil. That would probably be better if they do. See what your dealer says.

I checked the ARI site and the numbers to use a 3.5 ton or 4 ton indoor coil are only marginally better. I assume your dealer did a Manual J calculation to arrive at the 3 ton figure. Depending on the amount of insulation, leakage, etc, a 3.5 or 4 ton outdoor unit might be more appropriate. However, it will be he Manual J that tells the story (if done properly).

Regardless of the HP numbers--the unit should keep you warm-- I think a 95% or even a 90% furnace if used as backup is a waste of money. This is the one thing I would have changed. I would have opted for an 80% variable speed furnace to save some money. I don't use it much as my XL14i 3.5 ton heats my 2,981 sq. ft. home just fine. Mine is also paired with a 4 ton indoor coil for better heating numbers.

I talked with one of my neighbors yesterday and his original HVAC contractor did not do a Manual J and gave him a grossly undersized HP and furnace for his 3,200 sq. ft. home. I think he has a 2.5 or 3 ton HP (builder grade). The HP won't heat the place under 40 so he uses natural gas. He paid $497 for is January bill (reflecting december's cold temps). I paid $246. My point is that sizing is important. My neighbor thought that was normal until after he got the first heating bills during the cold season. The HVAC contractor also went out of business (go figure). And, the same HVAC contractor did other installs in the neighborhood and those people are having similar problems.

If your dealer did the Manual J and manual D-- and took real measurements and not just an "eyeball measurement with vast years of experience", go with what he says on sizing.

I'm beginning to think Trane is not the way to go as their HP numbers are looking pretty mediocre.

A 95% furnace does seem like a waste of money as a backup system [I still have not gotten an answer why I would NEED a backup system, and why I can't just install a correctly sized HP and an air handler without furnace]

If I have a furnace I would really like something that's sealed combustion as the laundry room where the furnace is installed has zero ventilation... so it's never really had a proper source of combustion air for the furnace.

Have had two Lennox and two Trane dealers to the house. To the best of my knowlede NONE of them have done any heat load calculations. They all just say "Once you've done so many installations you know what works and what doesn't." Well, when I'm looking at spending well over $10K I want to know for sure that it will work. I may have to do the calc mayself.

Take Tigerdune's advice and check into Carrier. Their models at least meet the new criteria for rebates under the "stimulus" package.

When you call the next dealer, insist upfront that a load calc with measurements be done pn site or don't bother coming out. I think I was one of the lucky ones in my custom development that actually had one done by the HVAC crew.

When I bought my home and insisted on Trane (because I had one for 16 years prior) I was suprised that the 15i (R-22 refrigerant at the time) had poorer heating numbers than my single stage 14i. I also considered the 16i but it would have involved swapping out the furnace and airhandler to get the right match and that was too much money. The builder originally installed builder grade and wasn't supposed to. That was the price, therefore any "upgrades" to be born by me. I paid extra to get the 14i and my numbers are fine. It heats the house.

Trane is going to have to deal with their specs because I think a lot of folk who buy this year and going to drop them like a hot rock when they find out the units don't measure up to the "stimulus" rebate requirements.

You will be bettrer off with a HP, Tom. Just get the right one to go with your home. Be curious to see what you come up with.