Bathroom Exhaust Fan -- Broan L200?

13 years ago

We have a bid to install this fan in our master bathroom. The bath is 12 X 14 with a 12-foot ceiling. On one wall are two sinks and the bath entrance. Opposite, in a row, are toilet room (w/own exhaust), airjet tub, and separate shower (open top). The installer proposes to mount the exhaust fan in the ceiling, centered on the tub. Fan will vent across the attic and out a soffit on the side of the house. (Bath is in the front of the house.)

Just checking with you experts before we give the go-ahead.

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Comments (12)

energy_rater_la
13 years ago
its a common enough install in my area. not lots of folks vent thru the roof.
some things to be aware of:
cut in sheetrock being oversized so that there are
gaps between sheetrock opening and the housing of the
bath fan.
I use mastic tape to seal these gaps as they let
not only attic temps but the insulation particles into the house.

back draft damper..only 2 ways you can install it.
1 where damper is closed when fan is off.
2 where damper is open when fan is off.
#1 is the correct way, but I often turn the back draft
damper around on installs where they used method 2.

This damper should be attached with my favorite
hardcast brand mastic tape #1402. this same tape will
seal the gap at the sheetrock to the housing of the bath fan also.

then the venting. if the fan is installed where the back draft damper faces the soffit rather than where it faces into the attic, then venting will make a straight run to soffits, this is what you want. if the fan is installed the othe way the venting will have to make a 90 degree turn to get to the soffit.
this will cause air flow issues.

there are different types of venting. the dampers are the same size as a dryer vent, so with dryer vent there are the cheap plastic white vents that dry out quickly and split. don't use that one!
there are the flex silver dryer vents that are flexible.
and rigid dryer venting.
I usually use the flex silver venting, and you got it
mastic tape it to the damper, then mastic tape the damper to the fan and then vent through soffit.
there are covers that cover the venting thru the soffit.

make sure that your back draft damper is correctly installed, I've picked many of them up off the trash plies
after electrician doesn't install them. Take a look at his work during the install.

quiteness is always an issue. bath fans are rated in
sones, the lower the sones the quiter the fan.

thats my .02!
have a good one.
mike_home
13 years ago
If you live in a cold climate, then I suggest the vent in the attic is insulated in order to prevent condensation.

I also suggest adding a timer. I like the electronic push button type.
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Babka: ha. they (fixtures) are vented to the space above, (which is under the stairs), not to the outside - which is against the code, I know that much. I guess they (whoever added this bath) ran into the same problem with venting fixtures as we are facing trying to figure how to vent the exhaust fan. and maybe that's why there is no exhaust fan to start with. The bathroom is under the staircase whichi s in the middle of the house, and there is space directly above it because the ceiling is short. But then the ceiling height changes as you go to any neighboring room (the rest of the house around has much higher ceilings). Basically, you can put the duct vertically through the ceiling above the bathroom, but then as you turn it 90 degrees towards in the direction of any outside wall, it would have to come out through the wall of any room around, not in the ceiling above the rooms. And if you try to go higher with the duct so that the turn is at the level of the over-the-ceiling space for these rooms, then the duct would have to come out through the staircase! Hard to explain, but I hope you go the picture. Also, even if we could somehow get the duct to the space over the ceiling of any adjacent wall, then we still can't open up that high ceiling to run the duct further because it has some fancy beams and moldings (house is over 100years old) so we cannot touch the ceiling. That's why I wrote "absolutely no way" for the ceiling route Unless, as somebody above suggested, we place the fan in the ceiling, but run the duct through the wall down to under the house (actually through the under-the-stailrcase part as the stairs go down). But as far as I understand that comment, we will have to install some inline fans in the duct to keep the air moving down...
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If you're not trying to be 'defiant' of our reasoning, you're certainly trying to convert us to your way of thinking, and I don't think it's going to happen. Clearly you are not open to this idea, but others may at least consider it. So far the inspectors have not said anything. I consulted with two of them, the city engineer, my contractor, and fan suppliers before doing it. Firstly, I'm not going to contradict a building code, especially when there's no discernible logic (ok you disagree but fail to impart what actual advantage your system offers) or advantage to it. I'm not going to run to the library immediately to check the code, but I do get there reasonably often and will check. Again, the inspectors who are familiar with the code are okay with my installation. It could be that a fan is not required simply because I have ventilation into the room via the AC ducting and/or a window, so whether I have a fan in the room is my call. You mentioned your area does have mould issues....(as do all areas I guess) - your system is particularly unwise due to that. You are creating an unnecessary hazard. There seems to be no mold issues in the southwestern deserts or the Rocky Mountains. Our weather is heavily influenced by the Gulf of Mexico so we have humidity in the summer. I don't think it is going to be a problem but is certainly is an issue. Definitely not a hazard. You may even have created a fire hazard You're being alarmist. Explain to me how my house catches fire because the bathroom doesn't vent to the outside. There are a couple advantages to my system. First the fan draws only dry air into it. This keeps the wet dust from collecting on the fan blades and reducing the fan efficiency to near zero in a few months. Second, the fan is mounted 24 inches above the floor in the bedroom. If I need to clean it, which I doubt I will anytime soon, its right there at knee level instead of overhead on the ladder. Third, the air at 24 inches is blown up to the ceiling in the adjacent bathroom 9 inches down from the 9-foot ceiling. As you pointed out, warm air rises. My system blows relatively cool and dry air in a the ceiling height to thoroughly mix the warm/moist air with cool/dry air to get a more uniform air temp and moisture throughout the room. Fourth, air sucked into a fan is only sucked extremely locally. Without a few classes in aero I can't really get into how that works, but you'll notice the exhaust of a jet engine, or even an electric fan for that matter, can be felt much farther away from the blades than the intake air induction can be felt. You have to hold your hand directly to the back of a fan to feel any air intake at all. My system, even with a diffuser at the opening into the bathroom, blows the air into the room hard enough that I can feel it against the far wall, thus ensuring thorough air stirring and mixing. Fifthly (?), in the winter humidity is not a problem here. In the summer it can be if your AC is not properly designed. Mine seems to be but this room has not endured an entire summer. Actually spring is slightly worse for humidity because the humidity is up but the temps are not warm enough to trigger the thermostat. In the summer the AC runs day and night as the outside temps sometimes don't come down into the 80s for several days at a time. It's rather like 'vacuuming' or should I say reverse vacuuming, a room by blowing it all out with compressed air. There may be something about that system you like, but you're just taking the dust from one room (read humidity and bathroom smells) and spreading it throughout the rest of the house. And your vacuum system sucks dust in from outdoors and blows it all over the house. Which is better - the dust you already have indoors or the new dust your vacuum system is sucking in? I knew which fan you were talking about, but I was way off on my house fan power specs. Apologies. I'm not sure what model of blower I was looking at but mine is 3/4 horsepower - more like under 500 watts versus the 750 watts used by my directed fans. If one of my little fans wears out, I have backup. If my furnace fan wears out, it's a service call and a $12,000 AC system (mine is ready to be updated). Your bizarre method and logic may make the condensation evaporate more rapidly (or so you may think) because you are encouraging it to evaporate I guess into a larger area, however, that capacity would diminish over time, since the overall humidity will increase to the point of what is it - equilibrium? Where the air will hold no more moisture, and condensation begins to reform. This is where the structural damage sets in, mould forms and it becomes an unhealthy environment. From a heat transfer point of view, you need to watch your terms better to make that make sense but I think I know what you were trying to say. Still, the last sentence is the important one. The humidity increase from a shower is unlikely to saturate the 18,000 cubic feet of air in the house. However, this is exactly what I'll be looking for in the summer. These bathrooms are at the far end of the house. The concern is getting that air moved out of the confines of the bedrooms and out to the AC air intake in the living/dining rooms. I don't think it will be a problem in the summer with the AC on all the time, but we'll see. I'm more afraid of freezing my butt off in the shower with all that dry air coming in on me. I may have mentioned that I do not get any condensation in my bathroom now and I do not get any even when the fan is off. The reason for that is not clear. I'm working on the theory of massive tile heat sink where the moisture is actually condensing on the cooler tile but there is so much tile that I'm not noticing it. But there is never any fog in the bathroom and no condensation on the mirrors. Ceiling fans may have their drawbacks and I don't love cleaning them either, but I think I'd prefer them to a bunch of fans sitting around on the floors Clearly I'm not going to change your mind on that either but I have convinced several friends to use floor fans, especially in the winter, to mix the hot air at the ceiling with the cold air on the floor. Suddenly my short friends can get warm and my tall friends don't have cold feet. If the thermostat is at 5 feet off the floor and you're 5 feet tall, you live in a world where all the heat is above your head no matter what you set your thermostat to. But if you're six feet tall or taller, your face is always hot and your feet are always cold. With the little fan on the floor pointed at the ceiling behind the sofa, the air mixes in the entire room and everyone is comfortable. Everyone I demonstrate this effect to is amazed. A ceiling fan can be reversed and pointed at the ceiling, but you get into the problem again of the air intake being at 8 feet off the ground blowing air up to the 9-foot level. You really have to have the fan honking to blow that air to the walls and down. Then people seem to complain about the wind in the room. My little fans simply punch a localized hole in the thermal layers and mix them up. I keep ignoring the indelicate subject of bathroom odor, because that does not seem to be a problem in my household. It must be all the lard in the tamales down here ;-) Actually my wife pumps the veggies and fruit into us - I'm not a dietitian. Sorry I'm getting so wordy. Maybe this will stop now that we realize we're not going to change each other's minds.
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My parents never listen to me and altho they have all the money they need to buy top notch materials, they don't (I guess that's why they have money they need :o) Anyway, they go with things like American Standard and Broan from the big box stores. "Dad, stop buying AS. You know their fixtures craze and discolor. You know Broan is so loud you won't use it." So their kitchen sink, bathroom sinks and tubs are crazing and the bathroom fans are so loud they won't use them. Mom DID listen and by a Toto Washlet tho :) If someone makes a quieter bathroom exhaust fan than Panasonic, I don't know who it is. Whisper Warm is what we have. 110cfm for my 10x11 bathroom and an 80cfm for hubby's 5x8 bathroom. The reason for the timer is so you won't forget they're on. That's how quiet they are. And they do a GREAT job of removing steam and rude odors! I don't know about the lighted versions or what ERV stands for. Funny story....when DH and a friend installed the one in DH's bathroom, they flipped the switch and everything was quiet. One of them said, "I don't think it's working". It was. It was just that quiet :)
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chisue
Original Author
13 years ago
mike -- Don't know that we will need a timer. It's just DH and I -- retired -- can remember to turn it off, I think. BTW, how long should it run after a bath or shower?

energy rater -- The specs say the backdraft damper is within the 8" duct connection portion of the fan, not whether it faces in or out. I need to ask that they face it away from the fan itself, right? Or are you saying the damper should be not at the fan, but at the soffit?

The bath is on the NW corner of the house. Air and moisture will go UP through the bathroom ceiling into the fan, ACROSS about ten feet of attic floor, then out a West soffit. Is it at the soffit that you want metal-flex flaps? Does moisture acclumlate there? Drip outside the exterior wall? (Yeah, where DOES the water go?)

I see round aluminum-looking flex-ducting in the attic. Is that what I should expect to see on this install -- not hard metal ducting like a forced air furnace?

Is this capacity appropriate? I want to eliminate excess moisture, but don't want to be taking baths or showers in a wind tunnel! (It is meant to run *while* one bathes and a short while afterwards, right?)

Is a sone rating of 1.7 good? Is Broan a good brand?

This installer is also going to correct three other, smaller bathroom exhaust fan ducts that now empty INTO the attic instead of outdoors. Price is $900 all in for Broan unit and all work. He says it will take about four hours. We are north of Chicago in a high-*address tax*-suburb, as my DH terms it.

Thanks so much for your time and trouble. Much appreciated. I'm probably overly concerned, but we keep finding faults (like these fan exhausts) in a house that passed city inspection when it was built only 10 years ago. I'm sure it was not code to vent into an attic!
mike_home
13 years ago
I turn the fan on before I start my shower. I will usually set the timer for 20 or 30 minutes. There is no set period of time. If you are good about turning it on and off, then the timer is not required.

I personally like the Panasonic bathroom fans. There are several models some of which have built in lights and heaters. I would not get overly concerned about the sound rating. The sound of the running water drowns out most of the sound.
energy_rater_la
13 years ago
Maybe this link will help.
look at the fans and the plastic damper that attaches to it.

http://broan.com/display/router.asp?CategoryID=100355

the back draft damper it the plastic piece attached to the
housing of the fan.

the fan's damper should point at the eaves where it will be vented out of the attic space.
if it is installed where the damper does not face the
eaves (soffit) the venting will have to make a 90 degree
bend to reach eaves to be vented through.

the damper is a square to round plastic piece.
the square end connects to the housing of the bath fan
the round end is where the venting connection is made.
both should not be installed with duct tape.
The damper itself is within the damper. what is of
import is that it is installed in a position so that
it remains closed when not in use.

8" damper is bigger than I have seen. In my hot humid climate it is normally 4" ocassionally 5".
check the install directions that come with your product.
larger than 4" you may need to use insulated flex duct.
It depends upon the mfg specs, location of your home
and cfm output of the fan.

best of luck
chisue
Original Author
13 years ago
OK, I *think* I get the sequence for what goes where; no 'duct tape';, damper closed when fan not in use.

Please look at my more basic questions too. Is a Broan L200 appropriate for a 12 X 14 X 12-high bathroom? Are 1.7 sones going to be pretty loud? Will it be drafty with this running? (Remember, I'm sitting in a tub 11 feet lower and directly under it.)

We have under-tile floor heat and some forced-air central heat in this bathroom. It's OK temperature-wise NOW; don't want a drafty bath -- just want the moisture out.

You can see this model from energy's link to Broan: L200. BTW, I don't need a heater or a light; would Panasonic be superior? I'd heard that Panasonic is of lower quality now that it is made in Korea.
mike_home
13 years ago
You have a big bathroom with a high ceiling, I doubt you will feel any draft even with a fan pushing 210 CFM.

This is a big fan, it is not going to be silent. If you want a quieter fan than look at the Panasonic FV20vq3. It is rated at 1.3 sones and 190 CFM.

The Panasonic fans have been made in China for a long time. Who told you they are made in Korea? Do a search in the Bathrooms forum. You will find Panasonic fans are very popular.
chisue
Original Author
13 years ago
Thanks, Mike. I'll ask the electrician about Panasonic fans.

I assumed everything Panasonic was being made in Korea because I was told that about Panasonic air conditioners.

We have a 10-year-old Panasonic through-the-wall in a condo on Maui that's still working fine. When we put another Panasonic in another room there four years ago the supplier said the brand had slipped because it was now being manufactured in Korea, not Japan. It failed this year.

Thanks for your help and patience.
energy_rater_la
13 years ago
Panasonic makes a Whisper Quiet fan
something like .8 sones.
best of luck
Fishinguy
13 years ago
I put in 2 Panasonic fans and I need to put them on a timer because they are so quiet you can hardly hear them. I have 2 small baths and went one third higher on the cfm's and I still get a small amount of condensation but it clears quickly. I put an elbow directly off the fan exaust and went straight up approxamatly 3 feet with insulated duct. Then I went through the roof with roof caps. I am not sure if the elbow dirtly off the fan exaust is the optimon was to go. Maybe someone can chine in.
mike_home
13 years ago
If you are going to vent through the roof, then you will need to have at least one elbow. Is this a hard elbox, or did you connect the duct directy to the fan port?

If you connect the duct to the fan, you have the ability to make the radius of the elbow larger. This will allow better air flow. I don't think you have be overly concerned about this. I doubt it will make a significant difference on the air flow.

Below is a link to calculate the amout of air flow you need based on the size of the bathroom. The numbers are based on general guidelines. It is not a big issue to have a fan which is a little bigger or smaller than the calculator estimates.

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vCeilingContinuousFan?storeId=15001
Fishinguy
13 years ago
Hey Mike....the elbow is hard duct chanped and taped on both ends and covered with insulation. I purposly closed the bath door and showered with the fan on. The space is only 8x10. I had some steam on the mirrow and the top of the walls but it cleared in minutes. Thanks for the reply

Bathroom Exhaust Fan -- Broan L200?

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