carol

I know the NC Mtns very well. For your area/climate, heat pumps are quite common where nat gas is not available. And as you said, this past January was been extraordinarily cold, way below the average winter temps for your area and mine.

what size is your current system?

here are my minimum specs for new HP system

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset

my personal favorite is Trane's XL15i or sister mdl AmStd Heritage 15 HPs. Basically identical units except for the XLi series proprietary special top which is quite helpful to keep out leaves as well as snow/ice wintry mix which has been the rule the past month and may again this weekend.

If operating cost is not a consideration, there is always propane backup furnace-I will assume nat gas is not available.

This would be my starting point if I was in your shoes.

Let me know if you have any questions.

IMO
Good Luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Trane XL15i Heat Pump

carol

BTW, a HP from the 1980s has done its job and should properly be put out to pasture.

TD

Thank you, tiger, for all information.

The original HP bill has the following information:
model # BWR736E-A Cooling capacity BTUH 34,600 and SEER 10.25

I had been under the impression that it was much more economical to have a heat pump than natural gas heat. I saw bills from the previous owners here and their top charge was $ 157 compared to around $ 300 for a similar sq. footage home with natural gas. Also, no carbon monoxide poisoning possible with the heat pump, right?

We also have a propane tank for gas logs fireplace but have not used it.

Out HP is on the south east side of our brick house where it gets sun regularly. The neighbor's HP is on the north side of a wood house where it gets no light at all. Is there a benefit to having it in a certain location? Ours has lasted 24 years while hers is only 10 years old.

Guess I won't need to perform an autopsy on that old Trane : ))))

"I had been under the impression that it was much more economical to have a heat pump than natural gas heat. I saw bills from the previous owners here and their top charge was $ 157 compared to around $ 300 for a similar sq. footage home with natural gas. Also, no carbon monoxide poisoning possible with the heat pump, right? "

There are many factors that go into whether NG is more/less economical than a HP. I live near Raleigh where I know it is warmer than the mountains. I have NG and Heat Pump (which obviously is the best of both worlds). NG is cheaper when the weather is cold - no question. A Heat Pump works best when the outdoor weather is say above 30 degrees, even better at 40, and pretty spectacular at 50. Interestingly, around here, almost everyone has NG except in townhomes/apartments/rural areas without access to NG.

Why have NG in a mild climate such as Raleigh? It costs more to install - but not by much and only because you need a/c as well. It costs a bit more to run.

Well - here is my theory. People are afraid of HP. They run more often (and in typical noisy systems - this is a big downer) and don't heat as fast as gas. If used without a humidifier - I think they will tend to dry the air more (I'd like some expert confirmation on this). Very few callbacks on gas that heats the house quickly.

Gas prices are far more volatile than electricity so there are times when gas is expensive and people always seem to remember their peak bills. Right now - NG is pretty cheap. Back when oil was $140, NG was not so cheap. Where the future goes is anyone's guess but most people expect higher NG prices with more stable (but climbing) electricity prices.

My last house was 2600 sq feet, 80% gas furnace - that was probably close to 70% based on HVAC tech; and we never saw over $200 for gas bill (which included hot water). Now we are warmer here but this is just a point of reference for you.

Another point of comparison is we probably had a $120 bill for 4000 sq feet (with too many windows/doors 34/5) with a new house (gas/HP). I say probably, because I am trying to deduct off the household electricity use. This is for Dec/Jan. Each bill is different days so it is really hard to get a good guesstimate. Gas was $60 and Electricity was $150. We have heated tile and a recirc hot water pump, 48 in fridge, wine fridge .... you get the idea - lots of power hungry things.

carol

you mentioned ice buildup on your condenser. this can be an indication that your defrost function is not operating correctly. ice buildup can affect your system's operating efficiency so this condition bears watching.

I assume your condenser's current location has worked out fine. I do not like a location where condenser gets direct afternoon sun in the summer. However, even more important is a location that has the best direct and shortest route for refrigerant lineset from condenser to air handler. where is air handler located?

It appears your current system is a three ton size. any idea of heat strip size? those old Tranes were a tank-they don't build them like that anymore. However, I would not spend a dime on a system this vintage. Keep in mind the HVAC tax credit will expire this year unless it's extended.

I personally would stay all electric and use the propane logs for extra BTU capacity on these extreme cold days and if you lose power.

IMO
Good Luck!

tiger,
The outdoor unit has deciduous shade ( river birch) in summer. It is close to the crawl space where the air handler and whatever else is part of the system is located. To be truthful, I've not ventured in there!

I'm guessing we should have everything replaced.

Today I heard of another resident having a separate heat pump and A/C installed. I will ask them for particulars since I have not spoken directly to them. Their home is larger with a basement. They found it was cheaper to do the A/C separate from heat, apparently.

There was ice today, which knocked out power here for a while.

If I go with the Trane, I will likely ask the same company that installed in 1986 since they did a good job and the unit lasted so long. They are still in business.

Here is a link that might be useful: ice storm

carol

thanks for sharing those pictures. beautiful area but scary situation with all that ice/snow. we were on the edge of that storm and thankfully just missed that mess.

TD

The outdoor unit has a lot of ice inside. Will switching to emergency heat help?

I'm hoping to wait until next week to have a new unit installed. Any ideas on how long that would take ? Since the weather is cold, I wouldn't want to be without heat for an extended period of time.

Thank you.

carol

usually ice at the outdoor condenser is an indication of a freon leak or faulty defrost function. I assume you are changing your filter(s) on a regular basis.

any idea of size of your heat strip? It probably is a good idea to go to straight emergency heat. perhaps ice will melt by tomorrow afternoon and you can fire up the system in normal mode.

a routine replacement should take no more than 1-2 days if installers are organized correctly.

IMO
Good Luck!

tiger
Thanks for the quick reply. I was searching on line for advice.

I have no idea of the heat strips.

I've seen the green light( auxillary) come on and the red ( emergency) briefly on the thermostat.

Now I've set it on emergency heat.

I noticed the neighbor behind me has a completely iced up system. Their unit is white from top to bottom and all sides. ( not one I mentioned before)

the fan is still free to go around in the outside unit, but there is a huge build up of ice around the inside of the casing below the fan and on down. I used a stiff brush to clean off what I could on the sides. There is no accumulation on the top of it. I then swept everything icy away from the base of the unit.

First thing tomorrow I'll photograph it and post here. Looks like a snowmaking machine. : (((

We changed the filter which is in the crawl space back in Oct/Nov. My husband could not find where the filter was so we asked the neighbor who changed it for us last time. It was not dirty at all this time.

I've changed the return air duct filters in the house recently.

I guess there is nothing I could pour over the outside ice to melt it?

carol

I read too many horror stories about homeowners trying to "clean or scrape the ice away". This can cause unintended damage so I do not recommend this approach.

If you must attempt to eliminate the ice buildup, wait until outside temp at least gets in high 30s-low 40s. cut the power to the condenser either at the breaker panel or possibly an outside disconnect. Pour hot water on the ice. based on your description,it will take many trips. I really prefer that the ice melt on its own.

Of course you realize it would be a poor decision to repair your existing system. I assume you have already laid some groundwork on a new system. Your dealer should advise you of current size heat strip. To better manage operating costs, you do want heat strip staged. I know Trane makes at least two sifferent size combos, one being a 10/15KW module.

IMO

tiger,
The emergency heat worked fine all night. I know it is a lot more expensive to run. I won't pay anything to have this old unit fixed. That would be throwing money down a hole.

What about the spray cans used to de-ice windshields? Is that formula caustic? Could it be used, then followed up with hot water?

I'll try to let nature take its course but we are not going to have temps much above 40 today though it will be sunny.

There is a switch to shut off that unit. We found that.
We are retired people with no mechanical, electrical, technical knowledge.

The bricks were the base for a hose holder. I moved them because a mole was tunneling and my dog was barking at it.

Thanks again.
Carol

carol

it is possible that the recent snow/ice storm has just overwhelmed your system's defrosting capability or it has been faulty for some time and you just did not realize it.

I know ice on a condenser bothers most homeowners. however, my best advice is to let unit defrost on its own. however, considering unit's age, these spray de-ice solutions probably won't do any harm and who really cares if you intend to replace system next week. I personally would not spend the time or money and just run emergency heat.

IMO

tiger
The original installers of the Trane unit on site came out to give me an estimate.

For the top of the line, 2 compressors, it will run $ 8250
It should save on energy usage. The extra cost will be defrayed over time. ( years)

the cheaper unit with one compressor is $ 7250

The men told me that the inside and outside units must match. ( no old heat strips and air handler with new unit as it won't pass inspection)

Is this a decent price? Would all Trane installation be comparable?

I found out the neighbors had a Payne HP installed. They went for the cheapest price since their house is for sale.
We plan on staying here and want the most reliable.

Thanks for your advice!

Carol

glad to see you are laying some groundwork on a new system. keep in mind that Trane usually offers factory rebates for their premium HVAC in mid to late March. Amounts vary depending on models.

It appears you have been quoted Trane's XL20i which is top of line heat pump. I am not a fan of two stg condensers unless one just wants the best regardless of cost. Certainly payback justfication is rather long. If you do decide on the XL20i model, I would want the new communicating air handler with the Trane XL900 communication thermostat.

here is the AHRI HP Directory numbers.

3221082 Active Systems XL20I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWZ0036A1 4TEE3C04A1 36600 13.00 18.60 35200 9.00 19400

my first choice would be their sgl stage workhorse, XL15i mdl paired with HW VisionPro IAQ stat.

1384031 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F40B1 37400 12.70 15.00 36200 9.00 23400

I would also insist on Trane's two stg heat strip module. Your dealer may not be aware of it. I know it is available in a 10/15 KW split and one smaller size.

pricing among Trane dealers can vary. I see nothing excessive about yours but certainly not a super deal either. I will assume this is an authorized Trane dealer you are working with. That's a must in my book.

let me know if you have any questions. of course both qualify for tax credit.

IMO
Good Luck!

Thank you very much, tiger!

Yes, they are authorized and the top section of the estimate shows TRANE, plus my name, address, etc which I left off purposely.

OK, so no need to spend $ 1000 more for something I don't need!

I'm wondering if I can barter with them or if their offer is written in stone. ( Feeling like I'm at the bazaar in Marrakesh :-)) )

I was unaware of the rebates. So, waiting until March would mean I could likely receive a rebate? Work done prior to that means no rebate? What would be a ballpark rebate for what you recommend?

I will ask them to revise the estimate with your specifications. I can go there and pick up the paper to save them the trip!

By the way, another authorized Trane representative went out to inspect my friend's HP. I mentioned having a filter in my crawl space. The rep. told the neighbor there wasn't one in her system's crawl space where the air handler is located!
I asked the Trane people here today about it and they said there HAD to be a filter there.

Since the friend has no income, I am going to try to get a refund on the $ 100 she paid for a service call since the technician did not seem to know much at all and did not fix anything nor did he check the filters as was promised by the dispacher.

I felt that the company I dealt with today has a long-standing history. It goes back further than the 23 years ago of installing the heat pump here.

Only drawback is the son is 6'9" tall! I told him I bet he wished he wasn't so tall when he entered the crawl spaces. He even had to duck when going through the door frame here! ( 6'8" )

carol

just because dealer has a Trane logo on letterhead does not necessarily mean they are an authorized dealer. They probably are but I would go to Trane residential website to verify. see link below.

I can't remember what if anything you said about filters. do you have central return(s) with slot for 1" filter? I always recommend that a quoting dealer inspect ductwork both supply and return before a homeowner purchases a new system.

A new qualifying system must be purchased and installed during rebate period. I did go back and checked on the rebate for the XL15i during Spring 09 rebate program-it was only a couple of hundred dollars. Of course it would more than likely be significantly more for the XL20i system.

You are a good neighbor if you can get other dealer to forgive that $100 service call. Operating a HP system with a dirty filter or no filter is strictly a no-no!

These crawl spaces are meant for small people-not BBall players.

you can always make an offer to a dealer or try to get some type of concession.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Trane Residential

tiger,
The company does appear on the Trane dealer site. It does not have the NATE listing, but the company that sent the technician to my friend's house DOES have the NATE listing.

Which would I prefer? Someone that knows there is a filter in the crawl space and is willing to go inside the crawl space to locate it!

My husband is going to inspect the neighbor's crawl space to locate the filter today. I will bet it is very dirty and in need of replacement.

My phone conversation with the dispatcher was on behalf of my friend and before she phoned to have someone come out. The person to whom I spoke told me the cost and said it covered a thorough check of the system and included the filters. The woman told me that dirty filters could cause icing.

Here is a link that might be useful: ice problems

carol

good deal about your dealer.

you are correct. poor airflow can cause freeze-ups as well as decrease a system's operating efficiency.

just to be clear, where is your filter located? in crawl space at air handler or in slot inside home at return?

post back.

IMO

We have two filters. One is in the return air in the master bedroom. 14" x 14"

The other is in the air handler in the crawl space. That one is much larger. 20" x 15"

carol
so you have how many return registers inside your home?

TD

tiger,
There are four returns. I have found foam type of filtering in some vents. We were left with only two return air size filters. I asked the previous owners about it.

There is also a part of a license plate in one of the living room floor registers! Guess the air flow was annoying someone sitting on a sofa, perhaps.

carol

unless I have misunderstood your returns and filter location, I would install a 4-5" pleated filter media cabinet like the Honeywell 200 or AprilAire. This filter will last up to one year before changeout. Changeout is easy, takes less than a minute, and replacement filters are readily available and not expensive.

just a thought.

TD

I'll look into that, tiger.

I'm definitely not sold on the electronic air filters as I had a Honeywell with the former hot air/ gas heat system in PA. I really didn't notice any benefit. It was expensive ( about $ 500) and stopped working a while after the warranty expired. That one had two metal sections that had to be washed every couple of months. I would place them in the dishwasher. In order to do that I had to remove the racks in the dishwasher.

I then ordered a permanent washable filter from AllergyRelief products which I cleaned every couple of months with a hose.

The real nuisance here with the filter is having to go into the crawl space to change it.

Ok, tiger, here's the friend's heat pump which has ceased to work. My husband went into the crawl space but couldn't locate a filter. He saw " electric heater" and said this system is much different than our 1986 special.

I guess she will have to ask a different Trane serviceman to see. Perhaps she can phone the same people that were here this week for us to give her an estimate on a new system. How old is this one? The fan ceased to run. Ours will still run but gets frosty.

We were at the friend's crawl space for about 45 minutes.

carol

The XE1000 Trane heat pump in its day was a very good unit and a dependable workhorse. rated about 10 SEER and probably 7-7.5 HSPF. I suspect that unit was purchased around mid 90s. Look at that cabinet-still looks good. If it's just the outside condenser fan, then I would consider repairing.

As far as air filter, it has to be in a filter rack in air handler or at the central return inside the house. Somewhere between the air handler all the way to the return register. If you don't see one, then it may be missing in action. Not having a filter though will ruin the blower motor and evap coil.

Like you, I am not a fan of EACs. The pleated 4-5" filters do a good job and like I said changeout lasts up to one year.

IMO

Thank you, tiger.
I'll suggest that my friend has a visit from the same company that gave me the estimate. They will have to visit the crawl space to determine what is there.

There is a return air filter in a closet inside the house. That filter has been changed about a month ago.

I agree, the cabinet looks brand new, especially compared to ours!

It seems like ground source would eliminate icing and poor performance in cold weather. Does it cost too much to do it that way?

It seems like ground source would eliminate icing and poor performance in cold weather. Does it cost too much to do it that way?

I have a question.....Since my HVAC heat pump went out ...I've been researching a lot. I wasn't aware that a heat pump shouldn't be ran if it's colder that 30 degrees? My gosh, here in Lexington KY it's under 30 A LOT! In fact, we have had 30 days this season where the temp didn't reach freezing. Some days in the teens for high temps. Should a be using alternate heat when it gets that cold? I had NO idea!

"I wasn't aware that a heat pump shouldn't be ran if it's colder that 30 degrees?"

Mark

you have been misinformed. The statement above is pure nonsense. Yes, you will lose BTU output as outside temp drops below freezing but you still receive heat from the HP itself. That's why backup heat strips are needed-KW size based on your area/climate, your inside comfort temp, and home's building envelope.

IMO

Tiger, thanks for your help! Last month we had exactly what you recommended installed, the Trane Unit, the inside unit you suggested, including the filter media.

Carol

congrats

a top of line sgl stg system.

TD