queen

no. does not meet any of the criteria for the credit.

short on SEER, EER, and HSPF.

1384220 Active Systems HERITAGE 15 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H5036A1 4TXCB036BC3 *UX2B080AFV3 34600 11.40 13.50 37000 8.30 24000

considering the marketplace perception of Trane/AmStd being a leading brand and rather pricey HVAC, they are clearly falling behind in Performance/Efficiency numbers to qualify for tax credits that have high metrics especially in dual fuel applications. in fact using that furnace and a three ton Heritage 15 HP, I found no configuration that qualified. I like Trane equipment but this is a problem that they are not addressing. Just to be fair to Trane/AmStd, I took a quick look at Carrier's Performance 15 HP and found dozens of dual fuel configurations that qualified for the tax credit.

IMO

thanks tiger. since $1500 on the tax credit is not chump change and heat pumps are in the $4k+ range, i am now forced to consider Carrier, which i know is excellent equipment. what would be a good qualifying setup in the Carrier line for a 3 ton HP and Coil combined with either the American Standard AUX2B080AFV3VA furnace or a AUY080R9V3W furnace (discontinued)?

system performance on heat is my priority w/ secondary considerations given to efficiency. i am paying .103/kwh on electric and 1.204/therm on gas and live in Ohio. i do thank you for posting the ARI numbers and configs. for some reason, when i plug in info on the ARI form on that one site, i never get any results.

JMC, Carrier equipment can often achieve higher ratings than Trane's. However, you will need to produce some certification to prove your configuration's qualification, and I'm not sure how you'll be able to do that. This is something you'll have to talk to a Carrier dealer about--how to prove that the configuration will get the required SEER/EER/HSPF with an American Standard furnace (which you have) and a Carrier heat pump and coil.

25HPA536A30 or even better 25HPA536H30 are both stellar systems from Carrier.

We all know that a variable speed blower is a variable speed blower and shouldn't make a difference what brand tag is on it, but will the IRS or whoever's heading this tax credit?

personally I think tha IRS will mandate what will be required of the homeowner to claim tax credit.
from what I read the mfg has to provide verification of
efficiency to homeowner, homeowner files, keeps copy of verification in case of audit.

I also believe that they won't allow 1,500 credit just for hvac, that it will be spread out..windows x amount, insulation x amount, and hvac x amount.
they did look at my states efficiency program when setting up the tax credits, we have a whole house approach rather than shooting the whole wad on just one improvement.

It will be interesting to see how it works out.
I know I'm waiting to see.

That doesn't look like a valid model number. The AUX2 would normally have the tons like 936. Say AUX2B080A936. The variable speed model would be AUH2B080A9V3 with the 3 ton drive represented by the 3. So which furnace is being quoted? The 2 stage with standard blower or the Freedom 95 with variable speed blower? If the latter, then you'd get credit based on 95% AFUE but still can't get 15 SEER from a Heritage 15. Typical A-S/Trane performance unfortunately.

Baldloonie, from his previous posts I've gathered that he has an older Freedom 90 AUY furnace. These aren't in AHRI ratings anymore. (I think he was just using the Freedom 95 model number.) How would one go about getting the tax credit with no certification of a full AHRI match with an older model, or is it possible?

ryan and bald, yes new in the box is my furnace, not yet installed. it is: AUY080R9V3W which is the Freedom 90 Comfort R, 2-stage var. speed w/ 92.5% AFUE. I substituted the current AUX furnace as it is identical. How does someone go about getting performance numbers on a furnace (AUY) that is only 2 years old?

also, i am looking at the carrier setup 25HPA536H30 and matching coil to pair with the furnace that ryan mentioned earlier. if i can't get performance numbers, which i highly doubt that i will be able to achieve, i may just sell the furnace and start over with an all carrier setup.

check ARI ref. #1384162. i substituted *UD080R9V3 for the furnace. the numbers don't get me above the minimums:

1384162 Active Systems HERITAGE 15 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H5036A1 4TXAC037AS3 *UD080R9V3 35800 11.90 14.00 37200 8.50 24000

*BUT* the performance numbers actually looked good to me. what do you think? i also saw,

1384542 Active Systems HERITAGE 15 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H5036A1 4TXFH041AS3 *UD080R9V3 34800 12.00 14.25 37200 8.50 23600

The second coil is a horizontal slab coil, so that probably wouldn't work in your setup.

While the numbers are decent they still don't qualify for the credit. Isn't that what you're after?

ah, thanks for pointing that out. yep...i'm after the credit, but i'm realizing that i may not be able to get it with this furnace. any creative ideas are welcome. i am strongly considering dumping the furnace and going with a matched carrier system in order to get the credit. your thoughts?

If you can find a buyer for that furnace, I would go that route. May not be hard; you'd just have to call around. I wonder if a dealer or distributor would buy it back. Then you could just get a matched, high efficiency heat pump with matching variable speed air handler. And extras like an air cleaner and VisionPRO thermostat. :-)

Good 3 ton heat pump configurations (I'm guessing 3 tons is the size you need given that's what you currently have, but you'll need a load calc to confirm):

(Carrier) 25HPA536H300 + FV4BNF005T00 = 13 EER, 15.5 SEER, 9 HSPF
(Trane) 4TWX5036A1000A + 4TEE3F40B1000A = 12.7 EER, 15 SEER, 9 HSPF
(Rheem) RPQL-036JAZ + RHKL-HM3617 = 13 EER, 15.5 SEER, 10 HSPF (Wow!)

i may go that route and peddle the furnace. on the carrier i saw:

1125643 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 CSPH*3612A** 58CV(A,X)090-16 35800 12.50 15.00 36000 8.70 22000

i already have the following installed: carrier bypass humidifier, aprilaire 5000 EAC, hw visionpro IAQ, so i just need furnace, HP, and coil.

The CSPHP coil is also a horizontal slab. :)

It appears dual fuel systems are hard to come by for the $1500 tax credit. Even tried an ADP coil and came up short on HSPF.

Here's a Lennox setup:
G60UHV-36B-090 furnace
XP14-036 heat pump
C33-38 coil with TXV field installed
---
13 EER, 15 SEER, 8.75 HSPF, ARI #1292477

Would a 75 btu 80% furnace be insufficient? If it would work, Rheem has a dual fuel matchup using their 2-stage 80% variable speed furnace, RPQL-36 heat pump, and matching coil at 13 EER, 15.5 SEER, 10 HSPF.

i would really like to go with a higher AFUE furnace if possible. how do you tell of it is a slab coil or not with the carrier line?

The S after the C designates that. Looking for CNPVP (mostly used), or CAPVP. (In the AHRI database it is entered CNPV* or CAPV*.)

Why a higher AFUE furnace if using a dual fuel setup, or were you planning on nixing the dual fuel idea?

i was able to find the following ARI matched systems in carrier which seem to meet the minimums:

1453310
1394162

1125687
1125695
1125681
1125689
1169031

we will probably still be heating a fair amount using gas. we are zone 4 in Ohio and there are an average of 58 days per winter below 20 degrees F.

All great setups except 1125681 lacks the variable speed blower which I would recommend.

then, i guess the following will probably do the trick:

1394162 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 CNPV*4221A** 58MV(B,C)080-20 35400 12.50 15.00 36000 8.60 21800

can i still use my hw IAQ on this system or will i have to go with the carrier tstat?

You'd want to go with the Carrier Infinity thermostat. No sense in not using one and utilizing all its capabilities for humidity control and more. The Performance heat pump has the ABCD terminals and is communicating within the Infinity system. However the Infinity thermostat is not 'required,' per se.

ok. also, what are your feelings about the CNPV*4221A** coil (3.5ton) with the 25HPA536H30 (3.0ton) heat pump? will a lower fan speed (say 350cfm) be required with the bigger coil?

Not always required to lower fan speed just when upsizing 1/2 ton on the coil, but it would help with more humidity control. I would leave the fan speed at 400 cfm/ton. The Infinity will take care of dehumidifying when it needs to, by adjusting blower speed.

ok, back on the American Standard setup, grasping at straws to not have to peddle my brand spanking new A/S comfort-R var. speed furnace. if i take the furnace out of the equation and check ARI certification, i was able to find the following:

4A6H5036A1 3 Ton A/S Heritage 15 HP
ARI 1384032 - Heritage 15 4A6H5036A1 w/ 4TEE3F40B1 coil provides 15/12.7/9.0 w/ no air handler or furnace listed.
ARI 1384026 - Heritage 15 4A6H5036A1 w/ 4TEE3D40A1 coil provides 15/12.6/9.0 w/ no air handler or furnace listed.

question, i am not seeing either of the 3.5 ton coil numbers on the A/S site. the only way the 3 ton Heritage 15 HP can achieve the minimum ratings would be to go with the 3.5 coil. is this a good solution to my dilemma and are the coil numbers above readily available?

nevermind on my previous post. it looks like this is an air handler setup. dang it!

so, after a moderate amount of mental anguish, i have decided to go ahead and have my furnace installed (American Standard AUY080R9V3W) and wait for a while on a HP. i got a great deal on the furnace through a wholesaler in GA ($1000). when it comes time to do the heat pump, when the AC compressor finally does fail, i will go ahead with the Heritage 15 HP, even though i won't be able to get the tax credit. i figure the $'s saved on the new furnace takes the sting out of not being able to receive the tax credit. this said, if i had to do it over again, i would have gone with a carrier setup due to performance numbers and the '09 tax credit. needless to say, it looks like the carrier guys are going to be very busy this year.