i can tell you that i replaced a 30 year old AC equiped with an electric furnace with a Trane XL14i and cut my elcetric usage by nearly HALF! my peak bills each summer and winter were over 600.00 a month, they dropped to the worst bill was 380.00 since the change. and yes, i have compared actual KWH and the usage reflects the same amount of change.

i say you should check into it. no one can guarantee that YOU will see a big difference, but in my case it was well worth it as the unit paid for itself in just over 2 years.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You might see some savings on your monthly electric bill if you replaced the unit with a newer more efficient model now, but it would take you years to recoup your investment. Chances are, if you can get a few more years of life out of the unit you already have, there'll be new models or newer technology even more efficient than what's out there now.

To move from a 10 seer to 14 seer will pay you back in about 10 years. The insurance institute considers the life span of an A/C unit to be 10 years. I think you should strongly consider what wa8b recommends and for the reasons given. By the way, the Heil unit you have is a very dependable unit.

It's pretty much impossible to know how much you'll actually save with a new installation as there's a lot more to the equation than SEER and HSPF numbers. For example, if the new install is done poorly, like many are, a new high-efficiency unit could end up worse than your existing one. On the other hand, if your existing system is poor and the new one is better done, you could cut your bills in half. no way to know.

All that being said, I agree with David. I replaced an old heat pump for a rental unit I own with a high efficiency unit and cut my tenants heating bills in half, or more, even though the rated efficiency was not twice. Why?
- The older system is likely not even running at its rated efficiency
- The older system could be too small, resulting in vastly more expensive heating costs

Here's something to check, that will tell you how well sized your unit is:
monitor your system under various temperature conditions, and see when it routinely has to use the electric backup heating. Many installers size them so that they jump to electric backup at 40F. Do this, and the system may be running 30% of the time with backup electric heat, which is killing your efficiency. In mid-Atlantic climates, you're much better off with a balance point (where the electric heat comes on) of 30F.

there are numerous factors. How high are your winter heating bills? your summer AC bills?
Are you looking to save energy to 'save the environment'?
Are you concerned about your system leaking and freeing HCFC's into the atmosphere?
etc.etc

I'm a firm believer in "if you can afford to improve it now, then do it". Why? Because every day you use an old, inefficient unit, it costs you money. And, even if you say it won't cost more if you wait until it dies, trust me. If it's 15F out, and your heating system dies, you are not going to be shopping around, pricing things out, waiting for the "right" unit comes in. You're going to buy whatever your heating contractor has in stock and will sell you at a price that isn't too painful. Do it now and do it right.

One more thing, if comfort and efficiency is important to you, don't even consider a single speed unit. A variable speed air handler coupled with a two stage heat pump, sized up one step from the size you'd normally get in a single stage unit, will provide you with better performance and comfort at a significantly lower operational cost.

It gets pretty complicated. See an article I wrote on this, linked to below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Properly Sizing a heat pump

cecil

with a system this age, it would be foolish to spend any dollars for a repair. a HP with reasonable care and maintenance normally has an average life of 15 yrs. with your electric rate increase, I would begin to investigate a replacement system. you probably have very low heating efficiency and most likely are short on heating BTUs which was typical of systems this age. many improvements have been made in HVAC especially in conventional HPs particularly in the area of heating efficiency.

here are my specs

15 SEER, 12+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching var speed air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for rated size
R-410a refrigerant
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost
thermostat with dehumidify on demand feature
staged backup heat strips

IMO
Good Luck!

Sound like time for a planned, not emergency, replacement. Check on federal and utility rebates on upgrading to a more efficient unit. There rebates may be enough to buy the top-of-the line for $5K and save the maximum on electric usage. Everyone wins when you upgrade to more efficiency, and if you got 20 years out of the old unit, it owns you nothing, expect a major breakdown soon.

I have a 15 year old geothermal HP that had its firts breakdown a couple of weeks back, happily not this week it was -3 degrees her in NJ at 8 am. It cost me over $1K for the repair...I'm thinking maybe its time for a replacement, but will try to get another 5 years to pay for the repair just done. My EER is 17+ and COP is over 3, as it is a geothermal, so an efficiency upgrade isn't a big benefit in my case.

Just got little sticker shock. A contractor came out today and priced a new HP system. They had a special if you bought a Lennox XP 19 or XP 15 that you got a free air handler. Thought I would see a lower price I guess. They actually did a manual j test and said my current 3 ton system was undersized and I needed a 4 ton. They quoted me a xp19 with a CBX32MV air handler for $10.4 and a XP 15 with the same CBX32MV for $8.7. He was pushing the xp19 but I was not sold that it was worth the extra $1.7. These prices included adding another return (about $300) and new lines since the the current will not support a 4 ton unit ($400) and also the clean air system of $550. Of these I could only take out the $550 as this was the optional piece. Everything else is needed.

A contractor came out yesterday, did not do a j test but felt my 3 ton was good. I may have him come out and do one as he said he would. I think he was rushed for time since it was after 5pm on Friday. He verbally told me for a Heil 14 Seer DX1400 with variable speed handler for 3 ton would be around $4100. Nothing in writing but I am guessing it may be around $5k. Granted I would need to get a 4 ton estimate but even if that adds $500 -$1000 they are still significantly less then a lennox xp15. Any input. What else should I get from them to help you help me. Thanks

The Contractor who came out yeste

cecil

tell us about your home-size, two story or sgl story? how has existing system performed in the summer and winter?

first of all, I would say this particular Lennox dealer's selling tactics are very questionable.

I will say up front that I don't care for Lennox HPs nor two stg condensers which for most homeowners are not necessary.

Here is the performance/eff numbers for the four ton XP19.

552711 Active Systems XP19 SERIES LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC. XP19-048-230* CBX32MV-048-230* 46500 12.35 17.00 45000 9.00 26800

numbers are good with exception of being short on both cooling and heating BTUs.

Here is the performance/eff numbers on the XP15.

920351 Active Systems XP15 SERIES LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC. XP15-048-230* CBX32MV-048+TDR+ 47500 12.00 15.00 48000 8.50 30000

not bad except for mediocre heating efficiency for a premium system.

here is a nice configuration for Carrier's Performance 15- H version

1169079 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548H30 FV4BN(B,F)005 48000 13.00 15.00 48000 9.00 30000

solid numbers top to bottom.

don't get snookered by this size issue. you need a load calculation in writing and keep in mind, if you go up in size, you have to verify that ductwork both supply and return can handle.

Heil is not a brand I think of as far as high eff HPs.

see my previous post on heat pump specs.

IMO

If you 3 ton worked, then a more efficient 3 ton will work great. Sounds to me like your getting the "rush", I'd be very careful on making any deals with that supplier.

And, it seems you need A/C performance more than heating performance. A too big unit will cool the house too fast and not get the humidity out. Of course a multi-speed unit will allow one to operate below full capacity, usually with an improvement in efficiency...but why buy the extra capacity if you don't need it.

Good luck with your shopping.

Thanks for the comments thus far. House configuration:

Built 1976. 2x4 construcion. We have replaced all windows with either 2 pane, 1" spacer, argon, Low E or in some windows we have installed triple pane, 2 coats low e, krypton on about 5 windows. 4 of the windows are 3 1/2' wide x 6.5' tall and encompass an entire wall. House faces due south. It is a 2 story. Walk in the house and can immediately go down stairs (open staircase with no door going to lower level) and you are in a finished walk-out basement. Main level hs 7 skylights. It is a contempoary ranch so ceilings all start at 8' and slope up to 15' max.

The problem has always been the lower level is always colder than the upper level by about 3-5 degrees. Main reason is the only return for the house is in wall going down to the lower level. It is about half way up the wall if that makes sense. The return is about 25"x25". We have about 1700 sq ft on the main level and 1150 on the lower level. In addtion we added about 1900 sq feet split between upper and lower tha ties into the house in both the upper and lower levels. We have 3 ton carrier Seer 13 r-22 unit for this addition.

Does this help with the house?

Yea, the Lennox guy seemed great. At the end he gave me the numbers and asked if I was ready to proceed. I was like, "no". He was now in his sales mode vs. earlier in his technical mode.

2 contractors have suggested adding another return under the steps that go to the lower level to suck more cold air out of the lower level. One said that I may not be getting enough air in the lower level (only 6 ducts total to handle 2 bedrooms, a bathrooom and a living area. He said you may be better off adding a big register instead of another return. He did all the measurements and will do his j calculation.

This guy also said he does not typically sell a variable speed handler with a single stage compressor. Does not think it is worth the money. He did say a 2 stage compressor is not necessary for my application.

We have a lot of heil contractors in the area and in fact the distributor is one of my business clients so I may want to use Heil but certainly not required or expected to. The Heil 14 seer dx1400 is up to 9 HSPF/. I don't know the EER. Warranty is 10 year compressonr, 7 year outdoor coil, 7 year no hassle replacement and a 10 year parts warranty if you buy by 1/31 if not it is 5 year. It has a scroll compressor and 2 speed fan motor. Since my current system is a Heil and it has lasted 20 years I was thinking that heil would be okay.

With all the windows replaced and even replacing our 7 skylights that were originally the plastic bubble ones we put in 2 pane, low e and tinted during the summer our temp may raise to 74-75 on hot days even with thermostat set to 72. Any input is greatly appreciated.

Think of it this way-
Smart or foolish to replace your 6 year old auto that starts every morning and has new brakes and tires, that gets 15 MPG?
Only you have the answer to that.

Believe me, you aren't getting a free air handler with those Lennox prices--it's covered in there already!

Waiting or going for a new system now is up to you. Expect $6-8k for a replacement heat pump system from a reputable contractor. You may just want to get all the life out of the unit you can.

I do not like the idea of going up to a 4-ton unit if you never had any trouble cooling on the hottest days with the 3-ton. If they did a Manual J, I'd want to ensure they did it correctly. It's only as accurate as the information put into it.

I understand your issues with the power bills. In Maryland--Montgomery County--my neighbors and I all experience bills ranging from the $500-700 a month. It's hard to believe, even with new windows, new roof, and other various home improvements.

Let me get this straight - you've got about 3000 SF in the main house that this HP is going to be trying to heat? There is NO way that a 3-ton unit is going to be sized right for this unless you've super-insulated and air sealed the place. I helped a few clients with HP sizing and selection this year, and a 3-ton, top of the line unit, worked great for a very tight, highly insulated 2000SF split level.
Your winter design temperature is a few degrees higher than mine, but not that much. You want them to size the system so that it has a balance point of 30F or lower. And I really don't understand why anybody would be against a two stage HP, other than price. I would NEVER recommend a single stage unit these days unless there was an extreme price pressure. Two stage units lets you size properly for efficient heating and use the first stage for most of the summer cooling, giving you the most comfort in all seasons.

No shortcuts at this stage or you'll be regretting it every day you live in the house.

Just got a quote of a Heil HP replacement. you can see the price above for the Lennox.

This contractor did a computer generated load and heat loss/gain study. Said my upper level need a 2.8 size and lower needed .8 for a total of 3.6 ton unit. Current unit is 3 ton heil, standard air handler, 10 seer and is 20 years old. He gave me estimates for both a 3.5 and 4 and said he would go with the 3.5 over the 4 due to the better removal of humidity in the summer time. He said if I go with the 4 ton he would recommend the 2 stage compressor to maximize humidity removal:

Quote:

3.5 ton: Heil H4H442, 14 Seer, r-410, with a FVM4X48 variable speed air handler and 20kw heat strip(I have a 20 now and he said to stick with the same size). Will replace refigerant lines and replace my thermostat. I already have a digital thermostat and don't feel I need another so maybe I'll have him take this off the price. Also includes installing another air return in the lower level for better comfort. $4,790 for 10 year part, 10 year compressor, 1 year labor and 7 year no hassle replacement on outdoor unit. Outdoor unit has sound jacket and 2 speed fan motor.

4 ton: Heil H4H448, 14 Seer, r 410, with FVM4x48 variable speed air handler, new heat strip and new digital thermostat. $5,250

4 ton with 2 stage compressor: heil H4H548, 15 Seer, 2 stage compressorwiht FVM4X48 VS air handler: $6,350

4 ton 2 stage Trane: Trane XL16i model 4twx6048C, 2 stage with VS air handler 4TEE3C07A: $7,460

Guess I would want to know if I need a 2 stage compressor if I go with 4 ton and should I go 3 ton or 4 ton. Heil is considerable less than the Trane or Lennox. you can see the Lennox quote above. I could back out $550 from the Lennox to remove the UV light air cleaner and that is still $8200. Feedback. Thanks

Same contractor just gave a price for another Trane:

3.5 Ton XL15i 4TWX5042A with VS airhandler, I assume is 4TEE3C07A for $6,620.

To add the Trane Clean Effects to any of the above will be $990. Thanks

Heil is an ICP product--not bad products with good warranties. Similar to Carrier with less features, since ICP is a United Technologies company.

I'm not a huge proponent of 2-stage equipment for the following reasons:

1. Yes, they are more efficient in stage 1, but they shouldn't be sold on their merits of efficiency alone. They can substantially improve comfort by running long cycles in first stage.
2. First stage, of most units except Carrier's Infinity and Trane's 19/20 SEER units, are actually around 75% capacity on low stage, give or take. While this is a difference, it's not substantial. In fact I've heard Trane is around 80% on low stage. This is because of the larger coils with less compressor capacity. This translates into not necessarily a HUGE difference on low stage for some units, Trane's in particular.
3. The price to upgrade to a 2-stage unit is often very high compared to a good single-stage unit. Very similar results can be achieved with a single-stage blower, variable-speed blower, and good thermostat controlling humidity in terms of comfort.

Not saying 2-stage units aren't worth considering--they are--but there are multiple things to think about.

Trane's new XL16i looks attractive, except for what I mentioned above regarding the capacity difference not being substantial. Additionally, I have heard from others that humidity removal (latent heat) capacity isn't so great on low stage to begin with for the XL16i. I would not throw this option out given the communicating system--make sure you're getting the communicating TCONT900 thermostat with this option. This unit only puts out 3.5 tons of heat nominally (less with actual capacity--there are always factors that will lower a unit's true capacity--a slight ductwork leak, etc.). This means less heat for the buck, a poor feature of a "4 ton" unit.

You may want to consider the following units, properly sized: Trane's XL15i and Lennox's XP14 with variable-speed blowers and Honeywell's VisionPRO IAQ thermostat.

It's a lot to consider, but making the right decision is worth it in the long run, both for your comfort and savings. Any other questions, feel free to ask.

Thanks ryanhughes on the 2 stage issues. I am leaning away from them unless someone says there is such a compelling efficiency and comfort reason to have one in Virginia. I got a price on the Trane XL 15i. See above. I guess I don't know if i should go with 3.5 or 4. That is the first issue. The Hiel guy said 3.5. The Lennox guy said 4. I have 3 ton now and have replaced all windows and 7 skylights with in some cases triple pane, krypton, and 2 coats low e so I know that my house is much more efficient. Second question, the Heil is significantly cheaper than Trane or Lennox. 30%. Is the Trane and Lennox worth 30 - 45% more? Do I need a new/different thermastat with a single stage compressor and VS air handler. I have a digital now. Thanks for your input. Is the clean effects or Lennox's uv light better than just getting Merv 10 4 or 5" pleated filters? how long do these filters last. They looked pretty expensive ($80 for 3) and if you go through 3 a year that would exceed the $1000 clean air effects in 10 years which we plan to live in the house that long.

Here's how I'd approach the sizing issue:
- Preferably get a load calculation to determine the true capacity you need -- these are hard to get and only as accurate as the variables put in them
- Consider how the old 3 ton did. Did it heat/cool to your satisfaction on the hottest/coldest days of the year? This is a good indicator in sizing.
- If your ductwork was sized for 3 tons (and often times they aren't even sized to meet the capacity they're designed for), I wouldn't want a 4 ton system, and I'd be careful with a 3.5-ton system. Why pay for more capacity when you won't get it with insufficient ductwork? A good contractor will determine what your home can handle as far as ductwork goes. Home improvements are something to consider as well, as you've had some done.

I'm in Maryland myself--not too far from you. I have around 2700 sqft. + 800 sqft. basement heated and cooled with no issues with 3.5 tons--4 tons may be better, but I've always been satisfied with the performance. All homes are built differently, and all homes have different layouts and ductwork systems. -- Just to give you another scenario similar to your own.

The prices you're receiving on the Heil and Trane products are much more in line with what I'd expect. The XL15i is a good unit.

Thermostat: Your best option is to get a thermostat that can control the variable-speed blower for humidity (VisionPRO IAQ from Honeywell). Is this necessary? No. In fact, Trane's variable-speed blower as well as other brands (not sure on Heil) have ramp profiles to start the blower on a low speed to remove humidity further.

Air Cleaners: I think Lennox's PureAir is a good air cleaner--UV lights, pleated filter, etc. You'd want to consider the maintenance this requires (I don't know since I don't own one). Electronic air cleaners can help, but they require more maintenance. A good 4-5" pleated filter cabinet is a good alternative if you choose not to go with an electronic air cleaner. Filters for these usually last 6-12 mos. depending on the house.

I agree on the 3.5. The 3 ton, even with our window and skylight upgrades will still struggle to keep the house at 72 in the summer on the hottest days. In addition we face due south and have a wall of windows totaling about 14' in total width by 6'6" tall. A lot of glass. It was much worse before we did the window and skylight replacement so my thinking is the 3.5ton would be the ticket.

The contractor proposing the Heil and Trane did a computer generated load analysis and came out with 3.6 ton. He felt very comfortable recommending the 3.5 ton over the 4 ton. I trust him, he is a master electrician, Master HVAC and Master Plumber and taught heating and air to the the local Power company for many years before semi-retiring and going to work for this company to provide estimates. He is non-comissioned sales as well.

So, is the Heil 3.5 with VS blower for $4,790 the way to go over a Trane XL15i with VS blower for $6,620. I don't know if the Trane is worth $1800 more.

I'm not sure I could justify the $1800 either if it's from the same company and has the same warranty. I do like Trane's aluminum coils and overall durability proven over years. A neighbor of mine has a 3-ton XL15i, and it is very quiet.

The XL15i puts out a little over 3.5 tons (43,500 btuh). Air handler should be 4TEE3F49B1000A (which, looking at the pdf's I have on my PC, should be the same as the 4TEE3C07A1000A). As I said above, this is rated capacity, not necessarily the actual capacity.

What did this dealer have to say about the ductwork? The fact that he demonstrates experience and cares enough to do a load calculation gives a good prospect for this dealer.

All of the ductwork is enclosed in finished spaces except the ductwork coming off the unit itself. We have 17 registers total and from the ductwork size coming off the unit he feels it would handle the 3.5 ton no problem. The fact he said he would go with the 3.5 leads me to think it is the better option over teh 4 ton. At this point I don't see the Trane being worth the extra $1800. Is the Clean Air Effects worth $1k or just use a 4"-5" Merc 10 filter?

cecil

before you make a decision on the Heil, ask to see the AHRI numbers for performance and efficiency. I could not locate the Heil on the AHRI directory. I suspect it will be disappointing.

here are the numbers on the XL15i 3 1/2 ton system-all solid numbers

1384597 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5042A1 4TEE3D49A1 42500 12.00 14.50 42000 9.00 27000

IMO

Tigerdunes, can you tell me what AHRI is and what it means to me as a consumer? I will call the contractor but I prefer to somewhat understand what I am requesting before I request it. Thanks

cecil

AHRI stands for Air Conditioning Heating Refrigeration Institute and this directory provides the performance and efficiency numbers for matched HVAC systems.

for HPs, you get the cooling BTUs, the EER, the SEER, Heating BTUs at 47 deg and 17 deg, and HSPF. these numbers give you a quick glance at the system you are considering. Is it important? absolutely both for comfort and operating cost.

Ask your dealer for the matching AHRI number for the Heil system he is quoting. It can then be easily looked up on the directory.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: AHRI Certification Directory

Tigerdunes, here is the ARI information I recd from my Contractor on the Heil Equipment. AGain here are the Heil Numbers:

Heil Outside Compressor: 3.5 ton, 14 seer, H4H442GKC
Heil Indoor VS Air Handler: FVM4X48

Cooling Cpaacity: 42000
EER Rating (Cooling): 13.00
SEER Rating (Cooling): 15.00
Heating Capacity (Btuh) at 47 deg: 42000
Region IV HSPF Rating (Heating): 9.00
Heating Capacity (btuh) @ 17 deg: 26,600

These numbers seem to be equal and if not better than the Trane XL15i from what you posted. The indoor air handler for the Trane was 4TEE3F49B

Any input is appreciated. Once again, the HEil is $1800 less than the Trane.

cecil

not my favorite brand but the numbers are very solid from top to bottom. AHRI Directory says this is a discontinued system. I would check on that and the warranty.

1123458 Discontinued Systems QUIETCOMFORTDX 1400 R410A HP HEIL H4H442GKC* FVM4X48**** 42000 13.00 15.00 42000 9.00 26600

By going up in size, your ductwork should be checked to see that it can handle the additional CFMs from a three ton to a 3 1/2 ton. If you have any hot/cold spots within this zone that new system will serve, now is the time to address with your dealer. Do you have enough return? I also suggest a thermidistat like the HW VP IAQ for best dehumidification in the cooling mode and have backup heat strip staged.

IMO
Good Luck

Thanks Tigerdunes. I stopped by the distributor of Heil today and he said this was a great combo as far as efficiency and said he would not recommend a higer SEER or 2 stage compressor, even from Heil as you would never recoup the costs. Also said to get the VS air handler as this combo will qualify for the $300 energy rebate due to the good efficiency ratings. Surprising but since the Trance XL15i does not get 13 EER it does not qualify for the $300 so that makes my difference $2100. At this point the Heil is the clear winner. not sure why what you have says discontinued but the dealers sells these all day long and I assume he would have told me this since I know them. Thanks for your input.

We are actually going to add 3 registers in the lower level to help with heating this space. We have1 return that is in between both floors.

Another contrator came out today and said I needed 38000 for cooling and 48000 for heating. In between a 3.5 and 4 ton which is consistent with the others. We have a lot of glass, face south, 7 skylights and avg ceiling height of 12'. He thinks 3.5 in/out was best solution especially since I told him I shut off most of the lower level registers in the summer as it is always cooler. Thanks

20 years is long enough. It would be wise to lay it to rest and get a more current unit. Like cars, the manufacturing process of heaters evolve too so it would be nice if you can get yourself one that is made of high-quality materials and modern technological facility. Besides, a heater is supposed to cut down our electricity bills so if yours soar rapidly, something must be really wrong with it already.

I would go with the Heil given those circumstances, because I can't justify $2100 for a Trane system when you'd get a great warranty on the Heil and good performance numbers. Or you could look into other options and get other bids. But if you found a contractor you're happy with, then that's what's most important.

cecil

as stated above, you should look into adding additional returns- for better airflow, comfort, and noise control.

TD

Tigerdunes, when you say returns are you just referring to a true air return. The Trane guy last night said he would add 2-3 registers in the lower level to bring more heat during heating season over adding a return. Don't need more registers for cooling but the additional ones for heating would be welcome. He did not feel a return was going to do much since I have one about 6 feet away it is just higher up the opposite wall going up stairs the the upper level although he also said it wouldn't hurt. The Trane guy last night came up 50% more than heil. Seems like Heil is the way to go and the contractor who quoted it was highly recommended by the the heil distributor. Thanks for all your input.

cecil

a question to ask about the Heil..

does it have timed defrost or demand defrost?

the reason AHRI says discontinued is the HP condenser is being phased out from the GKC mdl to the GKD mdl.
the GKC has better number on the HSPF heating eff. normally the mdl number change indicates an improvement or a modification of some kind. not a concern but just curious about the change.

you need ductwork both supply and return to carry min apprx 1500 CFMs of air. one return for a large area usually has poor airflow which affects comfort and usually is noisy. if this was my system, I would want to know the size of existing return and how many CFMs it can carry. I would also look into the practicality of adding two smaller returns, one for each living area.

just a thought..perhaps you can discuss with installing dealer.....

IMO

Tigerdunes, the product brochure I have states "Integrated solid state control with Time-Temperature Defrost." Is this the better of the two? Thanks

electronic demand defrost is preferred over time defrost.

IMO

I have just installed a new heat pump 15 seer 3 ton and had a uv light put in, where should it be installed and should it stay on all the time. Can it be harmful to your body if you have health issues...I have heard that they are useless...did I make a mistake by putting one in?? Or just waste money???