Instead of adding steam to the whole oven via a hot pan in the bottom of the stove and adding boiling water, or spritzing the oven, or tossing in some ice cubes, misting the bread every few minutes... (there are many methods to add steam), the mini-environment of the lidded container holds in steam to accomplish the same task - a great crust. That steam also aids in raising the dough for the oven spring (the amount the dough raises after it hits the heat of the oven).

-Grainlady

Yup, what she said. A lidded container is especially useful for dough/sourdough which does most of its rising in the oven, and which will sometimes be raw in the middle if you cook it uncovered for the whole time. And the steam makes the crust crunchy. Don't ask me why adding moisture makes a crunchier crust, but it does.

Yep, that's how you bake no-knead breads. They take hours to rise (roughly 18 hours), then you dump it in a blazing hot covered cast iron or stainless steel pot. The ensuing steam creates the nice crust.

I dump them in a room-temperature pot, personally.

I saw a small oval porcelin (sp?) casserole at Wegman's today and I thought it might be good for baking bread in it. I don't want to make big loaves like you do in one of those cast iron pots, they are too big. I was hoping to find a smaller one. Even with the 1 lb. loaves it takes me forever to use up a loaf of bread.

Lpink, decades ago I used a 2 qt. Corning Ware dish to bake bread. IIRC, I used 3 cups of flour. Small loaf. Worked great.

/tricia

Thanks friends! I may invest in the casserole, 'cause I can use if for other things too.

You can also place your dough on a heavy, round pizza pan, cover it with a lid (a stainless steel bowl that fits nicely over it), and place it in the oven. Dealing with a cool pan and lid is much easier, safer, and works as well. The idea is to create an environment that traps steam that allows full expansion of the loaf. A hot, dry oven, tightens the crust and retards full loaf expansion. I suspect the idea of the heavy cast iron Dutch oven derives from the sheepherders or frontiersmen who did all their cooking in a Dutch oven. OK but not essential.
RB

Personally I see no advantage to covering bread while baking. In fact, I gave it a try when the no knead bread first came out.

Transferring the loaf to the cast iron pot was awkward and messy. And I didn't think that the crust was any better than the crust that I achieve from tossing ice cubes on to the oven floor and spraying the loaves two or three times in the first 6 to 8 minutes of it being in the oven.

Ann

Ann, I would expect that opening the oven two or three times in the early stages of baking bread would not be a good thing. Doesn't the loss of heat hinder oven spring and doesn't humidity escape? Apparently not. Can you explain?

Jim

Jim, I am not Annie, perhaps you would you permit my attempt to explain? :-)

It is not true that openning a hot oven allows the escape of significant amount of heat.

Specific heat of air is 0.24 BTU/lb-F, and at 400 Degrees F, air weight is 0.045 lbs/cubic ft.

You can see how little BTUs can escape out when you open the oven.

dcarch

Apparently not is right. I bake my bread on a stone. The oven is preheated to 500�F and I suspect that the stone helps to maintain an even heat. All I know is, I'm happy with the way my breads turn out, regardless of what type, ie..sour dough, rye, baguettes. I wasn't that thrilled with the no knead breads that I baked in the dutch ovens.

Ann

I'm going to get some bricks and pavers to line my oven. I use a pizza stone, but would like to get the bread in a ''box'' of masonry that I'll preheat at 500F. I read a very interesting book on hearth bread (''The Bread Builders'').

SWMBO tried making no-knead bread but it was a failure. We only have a copper stockpot, perhaps a cast iron one would have worked better? I see Sur La Table has a sale on Le Creuset oval roasters at $130, which is still spendy but better than the list $260 (gulp).

John, the Martha Stewarts at Macy's are way less cost than lecrueset. But if you have a stone, I've read of much success covering the bread with an aluminum disposable roasting pan, such as a turkey pan,

"-----I'm going to get some bricks and pavers to line my oven. I use a pizza stone, but would like to get the bread in a ''box'' of masonry that I'll preheat at 500F.----- "

Keeping in mind that you never know the composition of ordinary non-food grade bricks, they can contain all kinds of elements and chemicals and coloring agents.

I line the bottom of my oven with a layer of quarry tiles. I first cook the tiles in acid for a long time, I then boil the tiles in baking soda solution, then I bake the tiles at the highest temperature in the oven. I did this several times to minimize the possibility of contamination.

Also, in a brick oven, the temperature is normally from 700 to 900 degrees F.

dcarch

Thanks for the science, dcarch. As usual, there is more happening than at first meets the eye.

Jim

I recall there was a Good Eats show where he made a smoker from an unglazed pottery flower pot inverted over a similar drip pan. I've read of baking bread in a ceramic cloche, which seems conceptually similar.

I baked mine in my Kitchen Aid cast enamelled pot. (pictured)
I like the KA because the handle on the lid is good for 500 degrees. The bread was terrific!

Well, these expensive cast iron enameled pots are just out of my price range, period. I missed the boat when they were on sale for cheap at Aldis.

In the meantime, I like the idea of trying a clay pot. I read in my "Laurel's Kitchen" cookbook about Ann T's method, but they also say you can use any type of covered pan. But they warned you on porcelin, (sorry, I have not idea how to spell that word!), they said it sticks so use lots of grease and cornmeal. BUT, they said a corningware pan is fine, and I have TWO covered corningware round casseroles that will probably work, no need to buy anything then, because I also have some clay pots. I want to try the artisan bread.

Johnliu,

I trust clay more than brick.

Isn't it true that Chinese never bake their bread? They alway steam their bread?

jasdip, really nice looking loaf of bread.

dcarch

I agree that for regular bread (fully risen before it goes into the oven) you can get just as nice a crust by tossing in water as you can by using a covered pot. The water (or ice) does a good job of making it crispy. But you can't get fully-risen dough before going in the oven when using dough like no-knead and the artisan bread in 5 dough. It's too wet to get tall enough and just kind of expands outwards. That's okay, though; it rises a lot in the oven. You use a pot so the rising bread pushes against the sides of the pot and expands up and not just out. (For this reason, I think a small pot is the way to go for making small loaves). You can also mix more flour into the dough, shape it, let it rise, and then bake it, and throwing in water works fine for that, but I never have that much time. Being able to take dough out of the fridge and have it ready for the oven in 20 minutes is ideal for me.

lpink, have you looked into the basic premise of Artisan Bread in 5? You can find the regular and whole grain recipes free online, and it's perfect for someone who wants small, frequent loaves. You mix up the dough all at once, keep it in the fridge, and use a little at a time.

Yeah, that's what I plan on doing, finding some online recipes.

I just have to throw a wrench in here (maybe)...

I want "loaf shaped" loaves. To slice.

Can I still place the dough in my loaf pan (lightweight metal), set that on a stone and plop a bigger pan over it for a dome/lid?
Seems like that should work. I understand the edges of the bread inside the loaf pan may not be as crispy, but what I'm really trying to achieve is the best possible environment for whole wheat bread. Mine seems to "seal" on top and I don't get hardly any oven spring.

I want a 100% whole wheat from my own milled wheat that is a bit stretchy like storebought, for sandwich slices.

I'm getting close, but not quite there.
I also think I need new yeast...........whole 'nother problem!

Deanna

Deanna, I think that will work fine for giving you a crispy crust, but it won't give you oven spring. You need to let the dough sit around for a day or so before baking if you want it to rise in the oven.

Lpink, just in case you want to try them, here is the white flour recipe: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=195 (It's 725g water/925g flour/ 25g salt/ 14g yeast)

And here is the whole grain: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1087 though I have not tried that one myself.

Dcarch, I can't say about all Chinese cooking - it's a big place - but we never had baked bread when I grew up. Buns were steamed and pancakes were fried in oil. Although, we had almond cookies and I suppose they were baked, but you didn't make those at home, you bought them. There was never any western-style bread at home, and I don't recall ever seeing dough ''rising'' or any mention of yeast.

I do not know why this is so, but one reason may be that the typical Chinese home didn't have an oven. Just burners. I think this may be fairly typical in Asia, still - I think I read that in an article on Japanese home kitchens. So as far as home cooking goes, there's a lot of frying, boiling, steaming, braising - but not a whole lot of baking in a rack in an oven as we do it in the US. Restaurant cooking is different, there are roasted dishes, although often they are spit roasted.

Another difference may have to do with wheat vs rice flour, but I can't say. We did use wheat flour at home, I don't know if that was something my grandmother learned after she came to the US.

I can't ask her - she is 101 1/2 years old, still in good shape but not really up for a detailed discourse on cooking, you know. But I will ask my aunt and report back.

Remember, again, China is big, we came from a little bit of it (Shanghai area) so what I think I know about Chinese home cooking may be completely wrong to someone whose family came from another part of China.

I'd like to thank those of you on this thread.

After reading some of the comments here, I baked bread yesterday at 500F oven setting and it was my best yet. I'm going to try the next at 550F with a clay pot.

After that, I guess it's either disconnect the automatic oven door lock and use the self-cleaning cycle (scary!) or build a wood hearth oven in the backyard fire pit.

I've used a couple Sassafras Superstone Covered Bakers since 2007, and one of the reasons I like them so much is because they don't require a 500-degree F (or higher) oven. Proof the dough in the Superstone Baker, preheat the oven to 450-degrees F. Then with the lid on, bake the loaf for 15-minutes, reduce heat to 400-degrees and bake 30-40-minutes more. You remove the lid the last 5-10 minutes of baking. When baking is complete, remove the baker from the oven and stand back an admire the thin crispy crust on your bread.

-Grainlady

500 degrees? Would this still be ok for a really big loaf? I use an extra long loaf pan to make one large loaf (350 degrees for 35-40 minutes). I'd be afraid of the outside burning before the inside was done.

To bake at 500, would it have to be covered? I spritz the inside of the oven with water, once or twice while it's baking, to get lots of steam going. I'd like to try the high-heat method, but am afraid of ruining the loaf.

It probably depends how risen it is when it goes in the oven. If it's well-risen, it should be fine even if it's big. If you want some extra insurance, covering it for part of the cooking time is a pretty good way to ensure that it isn't raw in the middle.

susytwo-

How much dough (weight) and what size pan are you using? You wouldn't want to use a 500-degree F oven for a panned loaf of enriched bread, if that's what you normally bake.

For high baking temperatures we are using lean, well-hydrated doughs and free-form loaves - no pans. The internal temperatures of these loaves when baking is complete is a bit higher than what you want panned breads. Enriched sandwich-type breads are fully baked when the internal temperature reaches between 185-200-degrees F. If you prefer a harder crust, bake it until the internal temperature reaches 200-205-degrees F. While some types of rustic breads are baked to an internal temperature of 210-215-degrees F., which is much too high for panned breads.

Other things that affect the crust of panned breads:
-Using milk instead of water will produce a softer crust.
-Baking breads at a lower temperature (325-350-degrees F) creates a thicker, chewier crust.
-Baking breads at a higher temperature (375-425-degrees F) produces thinner, crisper crusts.

With my covered stone bakers I have a round "bell" shaped one for round loaves - boules, and an elongated one for a torpedo-shaped batard. The round one would accommodate a panned loaf of bread and you wouldn't need to mist it.

-Grainlady