I wouldn't think that you could "teach" someone to be "talented or gifted".

Have you checked the library? While you cannot "teach" how to be smart, you CAN teach how to take a test. Some people who are very intelligent freak out at testing procedures. Or they find the procedure new to them, and waste time on timed tests just trying to figure the test out, rather than just jotting down the answers. IQ tests have "tricks" built into them and the same patterns on what they look for in how the person processes the information and comes up with the answer, pop up over and over. A lot of books at the library that teach about testing have short sample tests in them.

I think if your son does a few tests he will get the hang of the testing and won't be intimidated when he gets tested "for real".

The problem with me teaching him is that he will only be 4 when he is tested--it's hard for me to understand exactly what they will want out of a 4 year old. I have heard that they ask simple things like telling their full names, home addresses, introducing themselves to a stranger--stuff like that. So I know he can be taught those concrete things. I'm just not an early childhood expert to know all the rest of the stuff to do with him to give him a better chance.

I checked our library and they don't have anything on any of those tests. The stuff I saw online were in the hundreds of dollars for each.

*4* for TAG/GT? That's mighty early for a school to be testing. Kind of silly IMO. The only people they'd catch at that point would be supergeniuses who would already be pretty easily identifiable, as they'd be speaking ancient Greek :)

A first thought: if the "GT" Kindergarten is mainly kids who speak English as their first language, then your son should make it anyway, right? Do you know any parents of kids in that class to ask them how the tests went?

And before I respond with more ideas, may I ask a question -- are you working outside the home?

I'm not a teacher, but both my kids were in gifted and talented classes and I'm somewhat familiar with the process. I have friends who are teachers who've discussed the process with me.

From what I understand, 4 is too early to reliably test for whether or not a child is gifted. I've been told that, and from what I've observed over the years, I think that's probably true. The tests are a more accurate predictor of ability once the child is older. You may want to look into the testing process at the elementary school you're considering - at our school the test could only be administered twice in elementary school. It's possible if your child doesn't "pass" the first time, he or she may be able to take it the next year.

I don't think a lay person could easily tutor kids on taking these tests, even with the help of books.

I wouldn't get a college student to tutor my child. I'd try to find either a professor of education or early childhood development who has training in the area of testing for gifted abilities, or I'd find a local teacher who is gifted certified and teaches gifted early elementary students and is familiar with the tests. Teachers who teach gifted students (here, at least) have to get special training and certification for that area. Regular teachers are more familiar with the testing, etc. than a non-education major, but in my experience most of them wouldn't have enough familiarity with the testing to help tutor your child.

I don't think the Torrence test is geared toward things like ABC's, etc - I don't think it's necessarily about academics. I think it measures creativity, possibly problem solving. My daughter took it, and I know it's very different from something like an Iowa test (ITBS).

Maybe I did not understand the first post. I had assumed you wanted your son to transfer to a public school near you due to budgetary constraints. I did not realize he was just starting schooling.

I have heard parents of youngsters talk about the entrance tests. They were more "basic" than the ones you listed. They were administered verbally. How would a 4y/o take a written test???

The questions were poised to see if the kid could understand simple directions, and know some basic things like the names of colors and shapes. "Pick up the Green crayon and color in the triangle." Amazingly some kids find this too complicated. They use the wrong color crayon. They color in the square. They don't do anything except doodle a smiley face with the crayon. They throw a chair across the room and start spinning. There are all sorts of responses to the directive.

They also test for learning memory. They tell the kid a short story and then ask questions about details in the story to see if they remember things and how much detail they remember. They also test if the kids can infer things from a story. Most 4y/o kids can't.

They also try to ferret out the possible geniuses by asking question with numbers and letters in them. Most 4y/yo don't get them all right, but some do, and they would be in the gifted programs.

Schools test periodically through out kids academic career and his placement could change later on.

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I also think it is kind of silly to test them this young. I do work outside the home and the last thing I feel like doing when we get home is working on school stuff (plus he's pretty tired after a long day of playing at day care).

Great idea about using a teacher at the school in that program. I met one of the pta moms online and I'll see if she knows anyone that is interested in tutoring.

Creativity is one of the tests and I'm sure there is probably some play type therapy that we could do with him to stir up his imagination and creativity--I'm just not as creative myself as I was when I was a kid.

LOL!, Fly.

If you work outside of the home, you may request an inter district transfer to another public school close to where you work. If you are home, don't admit it and get a transfer close to where your DH works if he works close to another school district.

Get creative. We live in a decent school district but there is a much better school 15 minutes away. I said I worked in the school district of my chosen school and wanted my boys close to me as it would make it easier for me to participate in school activities; in case of illness/emergency, etc.

In CA., one must renew the inter district transfer agreement every year. After the initial approval, I just wrote: "Renewal. Child has never attended school in this district." It worked.

Keep in mind, the new school doesn't care where you live, just that you have that signed paper from your home school district. You can give them your home phone, etc. as usual. The new school will be making money off your DS. The old school will be losing money (ADA), KWIM?

You can go to greatschools.com and research test scores, etc of neighboring schools.

Since my kids no longer attend public school, I hope they can't arrest me now. LOL!

Unfortunately, this school is already out of our zone (our zoned elementary is even worse). The only way to make sure he gets his school of first (2nd or 3rd) choice is to test for the G&T program. I can transfer him to any school within our district on a space available basis but there just aren't that many that are good.

The district by hubby's work is a much better rated district but the actual schools by his job are terrible.

Fly, he hasn't started speaking in ancient languages yet although he does spout off a few Spanish words he's learned on Dora. He had me worried the last week or so because he's bitten his own finger twice while eating--hopefully that isn't a reflection on whether he can pass a G&T test or not.

"If you work outside of the home, you may request an inter district transfer to another public school close to where you work. If you are home, don't admit it and get a transfer close to where your DH works if he works close to another school district."

I work for our local school district and this type of request is what's referred to as an "out-of-feeder" request. Up until this year (and depending on the administrator who is "in charge" of this), our district would approve anyone who put in a request, for whatever "reason". We have now had a recent changing of the guard, so to speak, and the administrator who is now approving/denying the requests has taken a hard stand against approving out-of-feeder requests because it does impact all of the schools involved.

" Keep in mind, the new school doesn't care where you live, just that you have that signed paper from your home school district."

I beg to differ. The new school does care where you live and if there really is a legitimate reason for your request. As a taxpayer, you should also care how this impacts your taxes and ultimately your children's education.

I am all too familiar with the...ahem...underhanded methods employed by parents to get what they want, and I have to say that it's pretty shameless. It adds to my understanding of why some states are in such a shabby economic state.

Disclaimer: I have a son who went through our school district, so it's not like I'm talking out of turn.

Just my 2 cents. I'll step off my soap box now ;^)

who administers the tests? If you do not agree with the results or do not wish to use these people are you allowed to get private testing done?
My son went the all gifted school that had many well off kids that were not that smart but got in by tests done by private psychologists.
Paying for private testing obviously was much cheaper for those families than paying for private school.

LOL, mrsmary. I deserve your soap box lashing. In theory I agree with all you said.

The problem here is that our 'decent' school in our neighborhood was all about self esteem. It was stated openly. The other school we chose was all about academics and academic achievement. I happen to think self esteem comes from hard work. Our neighborhood school thought a student who wasn't that great in math should just get easier classes, not more help. (This was in the early 90s and the height of self esteem promotion in wacky California.)

There would be lots of homework from the chosen school, almost none from our neighborhood school. I had a child who was very academically oriented. (He's the one studying Arabic right now.)

I would have sent him to private school if there were any but we live rurally and there isn't any around.

Plenty of people drove their children from the other school to the school in my neighborhood *because* they liked the self esteem concept and didn't want to have to deal with lots of homework.

Every child is different and has different needs. There is a right school for every child. My neighborhood school was great for my sister's kids because they weren't an academically oriented family. My DS was thrilled not to have to deal with tons of homework.

Another important reason for sending my kids to an out of district school was because my neighborhood school was a district that tested new curriculum. Every new math and reading program was utilized and changed up regularly, often making students very confused.

My neighborhood school is known for producing good athletes. The school of my choice is known for producing college ready students.

False Dichotomy Alert! golddust, those two are not necessarily mutually exclusive--you probably know that, but just wanted to emphasize it for the sake of other folks. It's not necessarily common, but some of the best athletes I know are also brilliant people (hey, my DH comes to mind :)). There's also an outstanding young distance runner in CA, actually, who's coming to the U of O next year because it's a track mecca but *also* because of their Honors Program that is a mecca for serious academic kids as well.

I always hated the joke about the term "scholar-athlete" being an oxymoron. It isn't.

(1) A school with a predominantly ESL population does not inherently = a poor education. Have you visited the school to see what it's like? Do not go by test scores alone.
(2) As a pp mentioned, you cannot teach a child to be gifted. If a child learned something early by a parent/tutor giving a lot of tutoring, then it's called hothousing. Hothousing is not generally considered to be developmentally appropriate.
(3) One of the most common complaints among gifted teachers is that their classes aren't really filled with truly gifted students-- your school is not unusual, unfortunately, but it makes sense . . .
(4) There is a tremendous range of what gifted even means . . .a child who is moderately gifted will have entirely different needs from one who is profoundly gifted. The higher the level of giftedness, the more difficult it will be to accommodate that student.
(5) As flyleft says, since your son is English dominant, it sounds like there is a very good chance he'd make it into that program anyway.
(6) The link below will give you really good info on giftedness, inc. testing. I'd stop by the Gifted 101 section (at the top) for an overview. Chances are, if your son is gifted, the characteristics will have you nodding your head. And no-- biting his finger while eating isn't a sign he's not G/T, LOL! Trust me-- at 6, my own DD would get lost in a school she'd be in for a year but could read at the 8th grade level. Gifted children can be full of contradictions!

HTH!

Here is a link that might be useful: Hoagies' Gifted

Busted again, Fly. You're right of course but a rigorous academic component has to be present to satisfy the thirst. *I* could easily provide the athletic components but not the academics.

Max played soccer on a Class 1 team that flew around two states playing soccer. Derek did the same and was co-captain of his Devision 1 high school's soccer teaml. Both boys were active in all kinds of sports from peewee football, ice hockey, basketball, snowboarding and soccer.

Worded badly and duly noted. :+)

Well, by now you realize the whole G/T thing can be a hotbed of strong opinions, misinformation, etc. True G/T testing will test the applicant's ABILITY to learn, NOT what they have learned (that is achievement testing). So 'ability to learn' testing would include figuring out puzzles, brain teasers, logical thinking, etc. Achievement testing would include mathematical concepts, reading levels, etc. The true G/T population is less than 5% of the general population, and that includes the whole range from moderately gifted to profoundly gifted. So in a school of 120 fifth-graders, typically only 6 of them are going to be truly G/T. No school district is going to go to a lot of trouble and expense for 6 kids -although it IS legally required, urgh! Typically the school gets extra funds for G/T labeled kids so that is another incentive to increase the number of kids so labeled. So you lots of expansion of the definition of G/T. If you have significantly more than 5% of the kids in a school labeled G/T, the program no doubt includes highly motivated students/high-achievers.

You cannot tutor a child for true G/T testing. You can tutor them for ACHIEVEMENT testing. You can probably call your District office, ask for the person in charge of G/T, and find out what battery of tests are given. That will give you an idea of the type of testing they are doing. Most Districts use well-established tests that you can then do a bit of research on. At that point, it would be easier to find a tutor who you could talk to about the specific test preparation.

Gifted and Talented children are born, not made. Anele gave you a good link that will help you understand more about GT children. Have you looked into a private school that offers scholarships?

My older son is classified as GT(with my younger following in his footsteps) and we live in a very rural area where public school is the only option. My district has been very accommodating addressing his needs but I have always maintained you cannot expect a school to fully educate a child.

I understand that you want the best for your child but YOU as a parent will have to work with your child to to see that they are exposed to educational opportunities that a school cannot provide, public or otherwise. There are plenty of afterchool clubs and activities that focus on learning and education. Travel, cultural events, and lively discussions that provoke thought and encourage deeper thinking can open a child's mind to the possibilities the world has to offer.

At four your child can not possibly be coached for these tests, these type of children just think differently (trust me!) I'm sure you will find a way to secure a good education for him, where there is a will there is a way!

I understand that you want the best for your child but YOU as a parent will have to work with your child to to see that they are exposed to educational opportunities that a school cannot provide, public or otherwise. There are plenty of afterchool clubs and activities that focus on learning and education. Travel, cultural events, and lively discussions that provoke thought and encourage deeper thinking can open a child's mind to the possibilities the world has to offer.

If the original poster's situation is as she stated - inner city schools, most kids ESL - then even if she provides travel, cultural events, lively discussions, and after school clubs for her son, it may still be difficult for him to get the education he needs, whether he tests as G&T or not. I can totally understand why she wants very much to have him test in the G&T program. I have had friends in similar situations, and it's very difficult. Even if parents don't expect the schools to fully educate their children and parents provide all the additional opportunities at home they're capable of providing, it's still difficult for some parents to make up the deficit if their child's school is severely lacking. I agree that most parents can supplement their children's education, but some parents simply don't have the time and resources to fill in the gap if the gap is huge. It's a problem for many concerned parents in our inner cities near where we live.

Psst . . .there is always homeschooling. I know $ it can be a struggle (I mean, I REALLY know) but it can be very worth it if at all possible. I started last Nov. with my now 7 yo and it has made a world of difference. Her school was being as accommodating as possible but it wasn't working for her personally. She is a new person because of the change.

I wouldn't suggest this as a first option because you do work outside of the home, but just file it away as a possibility in case you feel like you are hitting a dead end in terms of educational options.

Yes, never ending. I agree. Two of my three children qualified. I like it that I have experienced both sides of the educational spectrum. Aimee and Max were both classified GT students, recognized by the schools, not me. Our third child qualified for special education but was rejected because he was "exceeding his potential." Uh huh. He did and still does. I worked my butt off with him.

Our son who qualified for SE was born a drug baby. We adopted him at 20 months and we were his 7th home. I was academically qualified to help him but honestly, not my two other kids. I knew this so I strived (and even cheated a little) to make sure my other two got their educational needs met. (Sorry again, Mrsmary). I didn't want what happened to me to happen to them.

I knew I was smart but academically unprepared to support gifted kids and there is *nothing* available here to supplement academics. We live rurally where school is everything because there is nothing else. I know how smart I am and where a poor education left me. I didn't want the same for my kids who had the same ability I had. (Identified by the school, not by me.)

I tested reading at 13th grade in 5th grade but my schools offering held me back. I have amazing comprehension skills that are raw because of my one room school education.

Yes. Travel, cultural events, lively discussion, current events, reading to them far above their reading level and always, always assume their competence (read: ignore signs of hesitancy and insecurity) every chance you get.

Schools are important. Good schools are essential sometimes.

Ah, see now, golddust, those boys are just what I love to see. I think it's more an older-generation image that athletic people (esp. boys) can't possibly be intelligent too. Congrats to your boys for their multidimensional achievements :)

OT but golddust-- in what ways do you feel the schools ARE doing a good job for your GT children, in ways that you could not? The reason I ask is that this is a huge concern of mine . . .school certainly wasn't doing the job for my DD (and there is barely, barely a GT program here-- and what it was did not challenge DD) which is one of the main reasons we started homeschooling.

However, I am not gifted. If I am, maybe (MAYBE) moderately-- barely-- but I know DD's giftedness far exceeds mine. I skipped a grade and that was enough to meet my needs. But DD? No. I often wonder if we are doing enough-- mostly I let her lead the way.

My goals for her education are that (1) she keep her motivation for learn (school was removing this from her); (2) she continues to learn HOW to learn and has the skills to support this; and (3), that she can grow to be a peaceful and loving person who has confidence and appreciation for herself, others, and the Earth. Would you believe, even at the age of 6 in school, she was losing her sense of self?

At 7, she is still so young, but I don't want to look back with regrets and her to have been held back, as you say, by what we do (or don't do).

My youngest one is in college now but I raised my kids with the idea that there is no perfect situation anywhere. Get used to it. No one can spoon feed anyone and they have the ability to either adapt or try to fix the problem.

I used to tell them that there will be teachers they won't like but if they learn to work with people they don't like, they will be one up in the world because there's a lot of unlikeable people out there. I was tested on this one.

In 7th grade, Max was assigned a home teacher that he thought he *detested*. He threw a wall-eyed fit, demanding I switch him out of the class and if I couldn't, he wanted to change schools. I refused to go to bat for him and he ended up loving this teacher. I have a file of wonderful notes from this man to our son. It was a great lesson for him.

If a class wasn't challenging enough, I didn't run to the school. Rather I'd advise them to talk to their teacher or make an appointment with the principal to discuss their concerns. (no mommy rescues.) I did this from the beginning. By the time they were in 5th grade, I'd only hear of these appointments after the fact. Once, Max's principal taught him math, one on one. LOL!

I have no true recipe other than I didn't baby my kids at all when it came to school. I told them school was their job. Grownups work and kids go to school. They can be miserable or they can make the best of it.

I always told my kids that as long as they were making good choices for themselves, I would let them live their life. If I felt like they were making bad choices, they could expect me to be firmly in their faces. Oh! $10.00 for each 'A' on the report card helped. LOL!

I am not above bribery because it works. Max was a skilled but hesitant soccer player in his early years. He'd pass the ball to avoid making (missing?) the goal. Once, right before a game, I offered him $10.00 if he made a goal. That $10.00 changed the way he played his game. Best $10.00 I ever spent. :+) Notice, not $10.00 for every goal, just the first one.

I think we need to guide our kids based on who they are but we shouldn't hover over them because the confidence they gain by learning early how to deal with situations is invaluable. Life isn't perfect. Get used to it and deal with it.

My goal for my kids was to raise capable and contributing adults. That is very simple but it worked for me. Like I said, I have no true recipe for anyone else's kids.

When my kids were young, I used to problem solve with them and even role play to prepare them for meetings with their teachers, etc. That helped a lot.

Max has neurocardiogenic syncope. He used to faint when he got nervous, startled or injured. Giving an oral report was a guaranteed fainting situation when he was in second grade. I worked with his teacher and asked her to remove anything sharp nearby while he was giving his oral report. After awhile, he stopped fainting. Yes, I'm a hard mom to have. My theory was to get him used to things that made him nervous so he's stop fainting. LOL!

OT but golddust-- in what ways do you feel the schools ARE doing a good job for your GT children, in ways that you could not? The reason I ask is that this is a huge concern of mine . . .school certainly wasn't doing the job for my DD (and there is barely, barely a GT program here-- and what it was did not challenge DD) which is one of the main reasons we started homeschooling.

I'm not golddust, but both of my children tested as G&T and went to public school, and I felt they were far better off in our public school than homeschooling. I am speaking only of my own kids, as I have seen homeschooling be very successful for some kids.

Although our local elementary school is excellent and we were very happy there, the elementary school didn't challenge my son. Some G&T children do fine even if they're not challenged, like my daughter. But my son was one of those who really needed to be challenged. Once my kids were in middle school and high school - that is where I really saw the G&T program make a difference.

I am going to speak frankly and hope and pray I don't hurt anyone's feelings, but here are the ways that public school worked better for us. First, that old cliche about how iron sharpens iron - at school there are many other gifted kids, and interacting with those kids helped bring my kids to a higher level in their own thinking. My son was a swimmer, and often swimmers do their best time racing someone who is a little better than they are. Racing someone slower doesn't challenge them to go beyond what they thought they could do. That's the analogy I would make about interacting with the other kids at school. We have many, many, many homeschoolers where we live, and some of them are very bright, brighter than my kids. But there's not the concentration of bright kids coming together in a regular, frequent setting. This is not merely my own observation. I have a friend with a G&T child who chose to homeschool to have a program more tailored to her child's needs, and she has commented several times on the difficulty for parents who are trying to implement a rigorous course load through homeschooling. Many of the parents we know homeschool for religious reasons, moral reasons, because their child is special ed or has fallen into the "wrong crowd", etc., and for most of them setting a particularly rigorous program that would compete with the best the public school has to offer a G&T child is simply not on the agenda for most.

Second, as our kids moved into high school it is cost prohibitive for most homeschool parents to duplicate the lab resources, research opportunities, internships, etc. that the local public high school has to offer.

Third, as golddust said, my children benefited from having a variety of teachers and teaching styles, including the experience of being taught by some real losers. I used many of the same techniques as golddust in teaching my kids, particularly my son, to interact with teachers, and practicing those skills in public school has helped him tremendously now that he is in college and in the job market. I do think that homeschoolers have an advantage in dealing with people of all ages, etc. Homeschoolers are much less segregated by age, and that certainly gives them an edge in some areas. But I would not have been able to duplicate the different teaching styles and the way my children were under such authority as the situations we had in public school.

However, if homeschooling works best for your daughter then that's what you should do. Homeschooling has many advantages for some families, and I have sent it done very, very well by motivated parents who were determined to give their children an excellent education. Many homeschooling parents that I know wind up putting their kids into high school - either private or public. But for the ones who don't, there are many resources available online now. And homeschooling frees some kids up to do some wonderful and amazing things they wouldn't otherwise get to do. One of my daughter's friends has had amazing leadership opportunities through the Boy Scouts that he might not have had time to do had he not had the flexibility of homeschooling.

Children are resilient and our children are not as fragile as we often think. Even if you make some mistakes in your homeschooling, you will find that your daughter is able to bounce back and compensate.

The biggest "mistake" I see homeschooling parents make around here is to assume that they are giving their children a rigorous education because their kids are performing equal or a little better to the other homeschooling kids they know. If you are homeschooling your child because the public school education isn't challenging enough, then over the years I'd check my child's education against the best the public school has to offer. Also, many homeschooling parents can have standardized testing privately administered. There are homeschooling parents who deliver a very high quality education to their children, as good or better than the best a public school has to offer. Good luck!

My good friend worked as homeschool teacher for 2 years. She is brutally frank about her experience with homeschooling. Initially, she was attracted to the idea and her new job but quickly grew disheartened.

My friend grew to believe these kids were so far behind their peers in almost every way (behaviorally, socially, academically). She decided she could no longer support the program she was working in and began a new job search. She went so far once to tell me homeschooling should be declared child abuse. She was serious.

For awhile there was a big push in CA to rectify this situation with a proposed new law, stating all homeschool parents should have a teaching credential. That law didn't fly but my teacher friend supported it.

That said, we live in a very alternative lifestyle community where many don't think academics is that important. I don't personally know any homeschool families and I've only talked with her about this issue. That makes me so far removed from the situation that I shouldn't even have bothered to write about it, come to think of it. LOL!

Golddust, who is now just running off at the mouth

I am not above bribery because it works. Max was a skilled but hesitant soccer player in his early years. He'd pass the ball to avoid making (missing?) the goal. Once, right before a game, I offered him $10.00 if he made a goal. That $10.00 changed the way he played his game. Best $10.00 I ever spent. :+) Notice, not $10.00 for every goal, just the first one.

My son was a good basketball player, but was so afraid to miss a shot that he rarely took one, and would pass the ball even when he had a great shot opportunity. My husband started paying him for every shot he missed. It actually worked, because making a shot was a reward in itself, but he also had an incentive to just try.

Exactly, terriks. Great strategy! Bribery works. I'd never advice overusing it but there are certain times when bribery is very useful. Bribery can be an instant confidence builder/incentive package all rolled into one. LOL!

My first born was amazing child to experience. (what first born isn't? ;)) It was only when he began to read to another four year old that my eyes popped open, truly I believed he had memorized the words. When it turned out he could perfectly read and pronounce words like "gnashed" and "bespectacled" I took him seriously, and began connecting all the dots that had amazed and charmed the "new mother" in me! We tried to tell them during Kindegarten screening he could read and they wrote-"Parents SAY he can read." My DH and I still laugh at that, we knew what the teacher was thinking while she rolled he eyes! :-D

IRL I am very quiet and low key regarding his classified "brilliance" here in small town America. Always people wanted to know if I sat down and taught him, if we read alot etc. etc. No, we were too busy playing and talking!

Although they don't say it, there are some small minded, competitive mothers here that are still waiting for him to plateau out yet he keeps excelling. My standard reply when someone brings up how smart he is is "Who knows...he'll probably want to be a freight hauler, but as long as he's happy, healthy, and productive who cares!"

And really I mean that. He may be smart, but there will always be someone smarter! Smart does not equal a strong work ethic or a kind heart, both are as important as intelligence. If he is carrying his work load at school and not coasting, seems happy, and growing emotionally and intellectually then like Golddust I don't get on his case. Yes, I did get on his case when his GPA 3rd quarter was a 90! And boy did he howl that any other parent would be proud of a 90, but we both knew 90 for him was pure coasting and completely unacceptable.

On the other hand, formalized education is not for every child, and how sad that we attach so much value to our children's success in a system that measures so broadly and incompletely. Every child excels at something, and has different windows of learning styles and opportunities which is one reason why I make it a point not to wear "my kid is so smart" badge. If my child learns to "think" I will be happy!

Golddust, my parenting style is similar to yours regarding the kids and school. Children will bloom where they are planted, of course you will still need to weed, water, and fertilize them. Help them make the best of the situation but do not pave the way on a bed of roses for them, because the sooner they learn they have the responsibility to navigate through life successfully the sooner they develop skills to do so! I cannot tell you the number of friends I have who lament over homework, tests, and other school related responsibilities they have taken on as their duties "helping" their perfectly capable children. I help when they come to me, but otherwise I leave it to them.

Golddust: I'm having a hard time understanding your philosophy. On one hand, you fault your school for not doing enough for you ("I tested reading at 13th grade in 5th grade but my schools offering held me back. I have amazing comprehension skills that are raw because of my one room school education.") but on the other (from what I understand), you basically told your children to put up with less than perfect situations or to work on changing what was wrong on their own, with some help from you via roleplaying prep ("I raised my kids with the idea that there is no perfect situation anywhere. Get used to it. No one can spoon feed anyone and they have the ability to either adapt or try to fix the problem.") Am I understanding that correctly?

RE: your friend who was a homeschool teacher . . did she work with just one subject or was she expected to teach her students everything? I would say, if it is the latter, that is not what I would really consider to be homeschooling. In any case, I've only (briefly) met one boy who had someone like that. He was in my DD's homeschool art class and had a full-time tutor with no parent in sight. He was quite disruptive in the class. I wondered if THAT was why he wasn't in school (not that there aren't plenty of disruptive children in traditional school), if it was lack of parental involvement or ???

As far as homeschooling being akin to child abuse. WOW. That is quite a strong statement to make. I would say the way many, many schools are run is more detrimental to the overall development of children than anything I have observed in the homeschooling world. In fact, I AM a certified teacher-- I have my master's, taught for 5 years before becoming a SAHM. My mother is also a teacher and co-founder of a public school, so I was raised with constant talk of education surrounding me . . .(which is why I got my bachelor's in music performance first!). I know the way the system works, and I certainly know that it isn't the right fit for every student.

daisy: If my DD's school had had a G/T program that was better, I may not have pulled her out. As you said, it would be great to have her with peers that would challenge her academically, but this was not the case.

Our first step was to have her skip a grade, but for her, other than for math, one grade skip was not sufficient. The G/T program was in 3 week cycles, meeting only for one hour a day, and even that work was far below her level. Her classroom teacher had been told DD was gifted by the former principal, but the teacher said (by report card time) that she had wished the principal had told her the extent of DD's abilities . . .because the teacher herself felt unprepared to deal with her. She was working on learning more about how to meet DD's needs, but my thinking was-- why should I waste DD's time in the meantime when I imagined I could at least NOT waste DD's time at home?

As for the different teaching styles . . .yes, absolutely. I think this is important, but I am not DD's only teacher. She learns from herself, my DH, her Sunday school teacher, grandparents, friends, cousins, piano teacher, various classes and workshops she attends, karate instructor, etc.

RE: Being segregated by age, this was an issue with DD. When she grade skipped, she was teased. She suddenly thought she should do what older children told her to do (!) and her self-esteem plummeted for other reasons. Now that she is out of school, I have seen a dramatic change-- she is back to her old self, making friends in just about every setting with people of all ages.

RE: HSing allowing one to have more time for other activities, yes . . .this has been a huge advantage. DD would come home exhausted from a day of busywork, leaving no time for anything else. Even reading-- she read FAR less when she was in school. I know of many children who seem to be able to "do it all" but I admit, I don't know how they do!

LOL, never ending. I always say that Max may become the highest educated person living in a tent in the middle east somewhere, in sympathy to 'his' cause.

Yes, let them fail in grade school. Test them while they are young and listen to you. It's high school that matters for college. Gifted children come with their own issues. Bring them on while they are young, I say. By high school, they will have made many mistakes and learned from each of them.

I used to talk to Derek's teachers about my parenting style. I will work with him like there is no tomorrow *if* he asks for my help. I knew he had trouble learning. That poor kid could get a B on a spelling test yet not remember how to spell the very same words one week later. Fact was, there were other things he needed to learn about life from home and please, save room at the lost student table for him, in case he forgot to ask for help. His teachers had no problem with my formula. (I worked in Adult Special Ed for 13 years.)

That boy (now a man) is currently number one in tire sales in his state and number five nation wide. He is lucky we adopted him, if only because of our simple last name. If only he could remember the time clock. He often is over looked on pay day because he doesn't clock in or out. (I do not rescue.)

My kids had better opportunities than I had at a one room school that touted 18 kids in 1st through 8th grade with one teacher and no aides. My school did the best it could but it wasn't good enough. We had warm cookies and hot chocolate at 10:15 every day, but I sought learning that my beloved teacher couldn't provide in her environment.

I planted my kids in an environment very different than what I had and expected them to take full advantage of I didn't have.

There is no perfect, anywhere. Deal with it an thrive in spite of it.
Life is never perfect.

For OP - I don't think you can "tutor" a 4 yo for a test. Yes, you can check that he knows his colors. Numbers and letters may be a sign that he's GT, but they probably won't test for that. It sounds like if he's a native English speaker, he'll get into the "GT" program in your distrcit anyway.

DS has taken so many tests (not for GT, but for SE), I forget what they asked at what age. I believe the earliest screening test (that they administered to all kids in district - this one was for school though school wasn't doing the testing) he took was at age 3.5. That one I remember they tested his fine and gross motor skills and though we thought he was hitting all the milestones for age and dr hadn't noticed anything wrong, we found he actually had some delays.

I don't remember "academic" questions on that test, but one he missed was - shown a picture of a man shaving, asked to identify what he was doing. DS had *no* idea b/c his daddy had a beard and he'd never seen a razor LOL!

I think DS was in preschool when school district tested him for eligibility for SE (for his sensory issues - many to do with proprioreception, motor planning, etc.). He was rejected b/c during the test (we were not allowed in) whenever he missed a ? he'd get the next one so by their protocol they had to keep going, one the tester marveled over was "What volcano in the northwestern (sic) hemisphere erupted in the 1980's?" and Ds answered "Mt. Vesuvius!" Of course he was wrong, so we wondered why she was gushing over it. Turns out they'd never had a child that young (4) know the name of *any* volcano, though apparently they had gotten up to that question on the test.

DS was told he didn't need SE be/c he was "too smart" - so we ended up paying for all this PT and OT ourselves. DD had the same problem in new state (though she had verbal delays, not motor, and has sensory issues esp. with food textures). Schools don't have the resources to devote to helping children with anything *but* academics, if they are "performing" to the minimum "norms" they don't qualify for any aid, even if they have issues that impact their learning so that they aren't performing to their potential.

DD is entering kindergarten next month. DS is entering 6th grade. He had some very good teachers who challenged him in 5th grade, he started studying Latin and Greek roots (not the grammar/languages, just vocabulary), algebra, and geometry. Maybe next year I will have to dig out my calculus books and brush up to help him LOL.

For the OP, she must make the best of her situation. I applaud her for her concern and think if there is a way that is possible for her to find a "quality" education, she will find it. It all boils down to what works best for the family, and allows the child to thrive.

There are so many different factors, concerns, and personalities when it comes to raising children that it is best to remember -most- parents do have their children's best interests at heart. Ironically it is a damned if you do and a damned if you don't situation a lot of the time-sigh... Never is it simple. Except if you don't care,now those are the people who've got it made! :P, While the rest of us run around cleaning up the aftermath that runs over onto *our* children.

(note to anele: don't worry about opinions of people who aren't actually doing what we're doing. You'll develop a thick skin eventually and not waste the energy defending against a set of hypotheticals. Hang in there :))

dk, Chances are pretty good that you cannot tutor your child for a gifted test, especially at that young age, it is likely to result in burn out for the child whereas learning should be fun and enjoyed, not just another thing to do. Some things that you can do right now are:

1. Read books together, expose them to stories galore.
2. Give them opportunities to use fine motor skills, paper to cut, play-doh to mold, etc.
3. Pattern blocks are a blast. You can give them to the child to play with free hand or find some books where they have to duplicate the pattern with the blocks. Very good for training the brain to pay attention to details and fun too.
4. Stories on tape. These can be the "kid books" with CD's that you see in the bookstore or look for audibooks. Anything done by Jim Weiss is excellent. This is a good tool for bedtime, have the story going in the CD player and they can focus on Arabian Nights, The Jungle Book, etc. They are then exposed to an increased vocabulary, well written stories and you don't have to do it.

I doubt that they will have Gifted classes for K. When I was in school, those classes started around 3rd grade. However, children were often grouped according to reading level but don't push that one until they are ready. Some of the tests administered in my son's school are the Brigance and DIBELS for reading. Sometimes these are a joke. My 5-year-old is in the special ED program and the Brigance failed to capture where his strengths are as one of his major weaknesses was that he just did not care to take the test according to their rules.

That's a great list tishtoshnm. I would like to add a couple of things....
Children's reading skills are measured by two determinants: fluency and comprehension. Fluency is measured by how many words they read correctly in a certain amount of time. Comprehension is how well they retell the story. Of the two, comprehension is the more important. When you read to your child, ask them to tell you the story afterwards. Keep your responses general and open-ended, "And then what happened"... "Who did that?" etc. Avoid using characters names or specifics as prompts. Depending on your child's age and abilities, you can stop after every few pages and ask for a recap rather than the entire book. You can do this with movies and television shows as well. Even real life situations such as the visit to Grampa's, etc. This is a really, really important skill to build.

Sequencing games are very good for young kids too. Putting pictures in the correct order to tell a story, etc.

Also, use opportunities for math concepts -cooking, shopping, # of people in the car after Hannah gets dropped off, etc.

What I've become convinced of is that in my short time as a mother, everyone thinks they've figured IT out once they find something that works for them. But really, you haven't figured IT out, you've only figured IT out for you and your child - and no doubt about it, the relationship between mother (or parent) and child is a relationship like any other, requiring give and take, and you have to figure out what works for BOTH personalities, not just one.

There are also many paths to the same outcome. Just because your 7 year old or even your 7th grader is not yet capable advocating for themselves in a school setting does not mean that they won't be when they are a bit older. I wasn't, I was painfully shy and would have just "suffered in silence" if I had to handle it all on my own - yet by the time I went to college I was most of the way toward being capable of taking care of myself and went the rest of the way while in college. By the time I went to grad school I regularly went head to head with people far smarter than I am and learned a lot in the process and I can assure you that even as a freshman in college, mommy and daddy did nothing but offer a sympathetic ear or sage advice even though they had been more involved in the 7th grade.

It is not about the perfection or lack thereof in life, it's about recognizing what is the best way for you to help your child become the person you (and they) wish them to be.

Babies do not have to be "independent" at 3 months old, kids do not have to be mini grownups and "get it" (all of it, the big picture) by middle school to become independent, capable young adults. I know there is a lot of lamenting about the current generation and their seeming inability to act like adults but I would argue that this is the product of lack of attention when they needed it as children rather than too much attention (and substitution of "stuff" for involvement by parents). The kids who turned out that way are most often belonging to parents who never bothered to think about how their choices would affect their children in the long term at all - not about the parents who thought about it in the first place and "chose wrong" by speaking to a child's teacher or homeschooling or whatever else you think is wrong with what other parents are doing.

Kwglisa-

I think that is the whole point of everyone's opinions in this discussion and my point also, different strokes for different folks! :) But perhaps in different opinions or postings, we find one grain of truth we can take and apply to our lives and help figure out the great puzzle of parenting.

Even within families what works well as a parenting style for one child may not work for the next. My firstborn matched my temperment and energy level perfectly. My second son caused me to re-think everything I thought I "knew" when he was four because it wasn't working for either of us! I sought advice and opinions, weighed what would work and re-grouped. I am so glad I did, otherwise I don't think I'd be sober now!!! By bending to accommodate his needs we flourished and found a common solid ground.

I agree with the last two posters. Every child is different and every family must find their own way. My way seems to have worked for *my* family.

I wanted adults who were fearless. Well, I may have over done it. Max loves traveling in the middle east and now he is working in a home for mentally ill substance abusers in a very bad neighborhood in Richmond, CA. Oy! It's the night shift and he must walk 20 blocks after he gets off the closest public transportation stop. There is a fine line between fearless and stupidity. LOL!

Fly, LOL! I know you are far more qualified to homeschool than I am. Teaching academics is not one of my strengths. I'd have *myself* arrested for child abuse. Heck, homeschooling would push me totally over the edge. I loved my time with my kids but I needed the time they were at school in order to refresh myself. Of course, I had one very difficult situation with our older child adoptive placement son.

Every child is gifted in some way or another. I think our job as parents is to help our children find their gifts/passions. Whether it's academia or whatever. Personally, I don't think one needs to be excellent at something in order to enjoy participating. I don't think it's bad to let a child quit something (like dance or gymnastics) if they decide it isn't for them.

Well said Golddust, and I agree, mothers that homeschool are truly selfless heroes.

fly: Thank you for that. I remember much of what you said when I was deciding whether or not to homeschool, and have kept your words close to my heart. My goal is to seek my own personal truth-- not to be right at any cost-- so I used this discussion as a time to reflect on what we are doing, how it affects DD, problems we face, etc. Hopefully I did not come across as defensive in doing so. It made me take a good look and realize that the proof is in the puddin', so to speak. My DD was really becoming a shell of who she is, and now she is back. Even my DH, who was so, SO, SOOOOOOOOO against HSing has been surprisingly comfortable with it, and admits that he sees a huge improvement in DD. I'm sure part of him wishes she would go back, just so we wouldn't be different in ANY way. But I think he realizes that isn't a good enough reason, and now he's met some people he liked who happen to HS.

kgwlisa: Absolutely. As empathetic as I try to be, I have only walked in my own shoes. People try to compare situations but there is no practical way to do so, because no situations are truly the same. I like to hear the way people do things because I do get new ideas and insights, but I try not to judge. If people judge me, I admit that it stings, but ultimately I realize that they really don't know my situation.

Hi Dee -- Just a few specifics that showed up on test after test that my DS took:

- Have him practice drawing a person. The goal is not to make the best-looking person you can, but rather to have the largest number of parts -- no kidding! So have him add a neck, torso, feet, hands, fingers, toes, ears...

- Lots of 'What is this person doing' type questions, including things like the 'shaving' example that some kids just never see. My little one was asked how to make a PB&J sandwich. (If he could have eaten bread, he'd have known. But he COULD tell them how to make coffee, tea, lemonade, scrambled eggs -- Did they care?)

- Lots of sequencing and story details. What happened first, next, then? Some why's are also good.

- To the extent possible, strategize on problem-solving. What could you do IF...

Golddust - I also have kids at both ends of the educational spectrum -- GT and SE. And my SE kid also consistently performs above his tested potential. Hard work and determination go a long, long way.

To the OP:
My dd was tested for giftedness when she was four (for application to a private school for the gifted, as advised by the public school.)

The test was similar to what sweeby described. She was shown pictures and asked to describe them, or what was wrong with them, played a sort of which-does-not-belong game, had to put together some fairly simple puzzles, and asked a lot of simple reasoning questions. The test she was given was the Wechsler WPPSI-III, but I think all of the tests are similar in that they are about *how* kids think, rather than what they know. They're looking at reasoning ability, memory, fine motor coordination, and the ability to evaluate information and relationships.

I have no idea how you could tutor someone for these tests. I do think it is important that your ds isn't worried about it; I would just tell him that it's a sort of game that you play before you start school. At that age they don't really know what a test is, but they can sense a parent's anxiety.

Do you know what score they have to have to get into the program? I would think there was some flexibility.

I'm also wondering if it would be a possible to wait a year before testing. Is there much difference among the different kindergarten classes? After a year in school he would be more comfortable with a classroom setting, strange adults, etc.

My dd tested too high for the school we wanted (which I till think would have been a good fit for her) and we ended up homeschooling, which has worked well for us.