New furnace quote

11 years ago

Hi all,

New to the forums but have been doing a lot of reading recently as we're in the market for a new furnace as we had the service guy out recently and he ID's some problems ($700+ repair bill) and said we had a couple of months of life on the unit. Not sure if we should be looking at replacing the AC as well, and looking for overall advice. We've had 2 contractors out to the house so far, another due out tomorrow.

Basic specs: 2400 SF 2-story, 16 years old, plus 1100 SF unfinished (for now) basement, currently Trane XL80 @ 100K BTU and a Goodman CLT30-1A 3-ton unit, Mpls/St Paul metro. The furnace is original and the AC is newer, looks like a 2002 model year. Most windows face ESE but have a lot of western sun in the summer on the front of the house.

I think we're more or less decided on a HE furnace rather than simply replacing the Trane, but are evaluating the 2-stage variable vs. modulating. Modulating sounds appealing for the level of comfort/control.

Option 1
Furnace: York - Affinity YP9C, 80K BTU, 97.7 AFUE
AC: York LX YCJF, 3 ton, 15.5 SEER
Includes Aprilaire 600 humidifier & 2210 media cleaner, Nest thermostat
$9000 (inclusive of all tax credits, rebates, etc.)

Option 2
Furnace: York - LX TM9V, 80K BTU, 96 AFUE
AC: York LX YCJF, 3 ton, 16.5 SEER
Includes Aprilaire 600 humidifier & 2210 media cleaner, Nest thermostat
$8300 (inclusive of all tax credits, rebates, etc.)

Option 3
Furnace: Carrier Infinity 96 (59TN6A100V21), 100K BTU, 96 AFUE
No AC replacement, Infinity thermostat, use existing Honeywell HH humidifier
$5100 (inclusive of all tax credits, rebates, etc.)

Option 4
Furnace: Carrier Performance 96 (59TP5A100E21) , 100K BTU, 96 AFUE
No AC replacement, Use existing thermostat, use existing Honeywell HH humidifier
$4300 (inclusive of all tax credits, rebates, etc.)

Questions:
1) Given the age of the AC, does it make sense to replace it along with the furnace? If I can get away with not replacing it now, I would prefer that but am willing to do it all at once if there's a compelling reason to do so. (Difference in tax credits/rebates is $600 to do both together.)

2) From what I've read, if we go with a modulating furnace, we should upgrade our humidifier so that it works with the upgraded furnace functionality. True?

3) Will we see that big a difference between full modulating vs. a 2-stage variable?

4) Pricing for options 1 and 2 (from one contractor) seem high compared to options 3 and 4. Need to see what the 3rd contractor comes in with but any initial reactions? All 3 are large, well-regarded local firms so I know I don't have a fly-by-night operation low-balling things.

Other thoughts? Haven't seen a full Manual J in writing but will request contingent on signing the contract, etc. Also, recommendations on thermostat? Would like WiFi and like the Nest, have also looked at some Honeywell models.

Thanks in advance!

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Comments (9)

mike_home
11 years ago
Does your current furnace keep the house warm on the coldest days of the year? If it does, then you should not be buying a furnace larger than 80K BTU at 95% efficiency. I am surprised that the second contractor quoted a 100K BTU furnace.

Here are my comments to your questions:

1)I think it would be a good investment to change the AC now. I always worry about a leak developing in the coil when the furnace is replaced.

2)I don't think you have to upgrade your humidifier. I am not aware of humidifiers made for modulating furnaces.

3)The is a big difference between single stage and 2-stage furnaces. I feel there is a smaller difference between 2-stage and modulating furnaces. I have a Carrier 3-stage furnace. I can tell when it is on high stage, but middle and low stages are sometimes difficult to differentiate.

4)Your prices for options 1 and 2 seem on the high side for York equipment. I am not sure I would get a Nest thermostat.
tigerdunes
11 years ago
Some observations and thoughts.

Your existing furnace has about 80K BTUs output. Both Carrier quotes have quoted 100K furnace models with 96% efficiency. About 16+ KBTUs additional. Wonder why?

It appears to me if your mdl number is correct, the Goodman condenser is a 2 1/2 ton size, not 3 ton as you stated. This should be checked. BTW,
you may not want to hear this but that model is a pc of junk. I would replace it with a matching unit.

Why the need for a WiFi thermostat?

Going down your list.

I would replace the AC condenser with a properly sized and matching 15 SEER model minimum.

I see no reason why your existing humidifier can not be reused.

Full modulating furnaces adjusting to demand both up and down on the fly give you best comfort.

I like Carrier option #3 over #4. I would want a media filter cabinet.

Any hot/cold spots within your home? Now is the time to point these out for dealer to address. Home has adequate return air? Where will new furnace be located? It will need to be in close proximity to Ext wall both for venting waste air and fresh combustion air.

On Carrier Infinity furnaces, I would not use any control/thermostat other than the latest Infinity.

IMO
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I'm in the LA area too and I've been trying to replace my broken down 3.5 ton condenser. Unfortunately, I've been stuck doing too much research (analysis paralysis), but I've learned a lot. My house is 1430 sqft, long wall faces east and gets the hot afternoon sun, I'm on a raised foundation with crawl space, insulation R25 in attic, hardwood floors, no insulation in walls, double pane windows, built in 1952, 3 bd, 2 ba, etc. You need to get someone to do a load calculation (Manual J) which takes into account your insulation in the attic, insulation in the walls, insulation in the crawl space, sqft of windows facing east/west/south/north, sqft walls facing east/west, sqft of doors, type of floor, volume of your house, sqft of house, temperatures that you want to set inside the house in winter/summer, climate in your area, number of people in house, number of appliances, etc. All these factors determine your cooling needs in the summer and your heating needs in the winter. Or you can learn how to do this yourself at http://loadcalc.net I would guesstimate that no insulation in the attic, no insulation on the walls, no insulation under the floor, and drafty old windows probably raises your cooling needs to close to 5-tons. A 5-ton condenser and matching furnace are a lot more expensive to run/operate than a 3-ton system. I ran the numbers on my house and my cooling needs were a little over 4 tons without attic insulation and without wall insulation. I have R25 in the attic and I'm adding R15 wall insulation as I type this message and my cooling needs went down to a little under 3 tons (at 35.5k BTUs). So, my wall and attic insulation reduced my cooling needs by 1-ton (a little over 12k BTUs). I think the attic insulation makes more of a difference than the the wall insulation, so I recommend that you get that done asap. It really helps. Now, getting back to equipment. I've been following the advice on this forum not to get low end equipment. This advice has taken me in a two month quest for a reasonably priced mid-level equipment from a good company (Trane, American Standard, Rheem), but I'm having trouble finding it. The best quotes I've gotten are for Amana and Lennox. The most expensive are for Trane, AS, and Rheem. Goodman is very popular probably because of the price. They have good warranty, but the equipment is not well regarded in this forum. Almost everyone says it's better to get a great installer with low end equipment than high-end reliable equipment with a bad installer. I think I met two really bad installers and two good installers. It's a feeling, but it's hard to know for sure. Some dealers send their salesperson to talk to you, so you never meet the installer. One way to protect yourself is to get a permit. In my area, this ensures that the refrigerant level is checked to make sure it's appropriate for your system. That's all the permit does in my city. Another way to protect yourself is to qualify for rebates. The rebates from So Cal Edison require an outside inspector to inspect/test your ducts and install. The problem with rebates is that it costs more money to pay for these tests and the installers/dealers build in a markup when you try to get rebates. I got quotes with rebates from Lennox and Rheem and both were in the $9500 range with the possibility to get about $2700 in rebates. It's scary trying to qualify for the rebates because you might have to pay additional fees in repairs in order to meet the requirements of the rebates. Now that I've written a book on this topic, my advice to you is to get a load calculation done and see what your heating and cooling needs are. Figure out if it's worth getting the attic insulation to cut down on equipment size. Remember that it's more expensive to run a 5-ton system than a 3-ton system of equal SEER. Oversized equipment might cause your system to short-cycle which may be bad for the equipment. In So Cal, we really need the a/c and not the heater so much. So, matching a 5-ton a/c condenser with the right 5-ton 2000 CFM blower in a furnace will result in an oversized furnace. Your heating needs are probably 3-tons 36K BTUs without insulation, but you are putting a 100K BTU furnace in order to get the matching blower in the furnace to blow the cooling air at the right speed. Also, 3-ton equipment is cheaper than 5-ton equipment. So, the savings in equipment price and the operational savings can probably pay for your attic insulation. I'm paying $1600 to insulate all my outside walls. I insulated my attic myself using encapsulated batts from Home Depot. I might have to pay a little extra fill in some of the attic areas that I didn't do such a great job on. I'm talking to the wall insulators about doing this extra work for a small fee. I want them to blow some loose cellulose into those areas that need it. Okay, you might not have finished reading all this, but see my other posts on price and equipment. I researched 3-ton systems.
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joeplumb
11 years ago
" The furnace is original and the AC is newer, looks like a 2002 model year. Most windows face ESE but have a lot of western sun in the summer on the front of the house"

10 year AC. Don't waste your money on new AC, especially if you live in a temperate climate. I live in CT and have a
2 ton carrier 25 years old, no problem. Secret is it is only needed 3 months per year.

Preliminarily,I would vote for either 3 or 4 but if you plan on upgrading and heating the basement you could use the 100 K unit.
In any case, you need a calculation for the required BTU.
The older houses were over designed and your 100K unit was probably also. Insist on a programmed calculation from any competent installer. Oversized single stage units will cycle more which reduces comfort level.
tigerdunes
11 years ago
Most homeowners are not fully aware that basements at or partially below grade carry very low heating and cooling load.

If I was the specific homeowner in this thread and wanted best comfort and control and depending on when basement will bevfinshed and how it would be used, then a zoning control might be indicated. Of course this comes with a cost.

IMO
mike_home
11 years ago
Joeplumb,

If you think the original furnace was over sized, then why would recommend getting a new furnace which has a larger output?

I don't think the Goodman AC condenser is going to make it to 25 years. If the OP had a Carrier or Trane condenser and was going to match it to the proper furnace, then it may make sense to keep a 10 year old condenser.

I agree with what Tigerdunes has stated about heating a basement. It does not take much to heat it, but you need a zone control if you want to keep it at a specific temperature in the winter. In the summer it will always be cooler than the first and second floors of the house.
mattamillion
Original Author
11 years ago
All,

Thanks for the comments--much appreciated! Specific responses to some of your thoughts:

mike_home - "Does your current furnace keep the house warm on the coldest days of the year? If it does, then you should not be buying a furnace larger than 80K BTU at 95% efficiency."

Yes. We recently had a stretch of sub-zero temps for 2-3 days with a low in the -15 to -20 F range overnight and had no problems. I went down in the basement and took a thermometer with me, and without any vents directly feeding air in, it was 59F when exterior temp was 0. (Upstairs was set at 69.) It stays pretty constant regardless of exterior temp.

tigerdunes - "It appears to me if your mdl number is correct, the Goodman condenser is a 2 1/2 ton size, not 3 ton as you stated. This should be checked. BTW, you may not want to hear this but that model is a pc of junk. I would replace it with a matching unit." "I like Carrier option #3 over #4. I would want a media filter cabinet." "Any hot/cold spots within your home? Now is the time to point these out for dealer to address. Home has adequate return air? Where will new furnace be located? It will need to be in close proximity to Ext wall both for venting waste air and fresh combustion air."

Could be a 2.5 ton, not sure. The contractor who quoted the AC units recommended a 3 ton so that makes sense. Same person also mentioned it was a piece of junk so that's not news to me, but like hearing it from an independent source vs. a sales pitch.

There are a couple hot/cold spots which we pointed out. Partly I think this is due to the oversized old furnace stopping/starting vs. the ducting, which contractor #1 seemed pretty happy with overall (had 2 vents for each return, well placed, etc.). Furnace is located in the center of the basement but a pretty easy PVC run the 12" or so to the rear exterior. We have a VanEE filtering the intake.

joeplumb "10 year AC. Don't waste your money on new AC, especially if you live in a temperate climate. I live in CT and have a 2 ton carrier 25 years old, no problem. Secret is it is only needed 3 months per year." - Agreed, a couple years ago we only used it for 2-3 weeks. Last summer, of course, it saw a lot of use.

I'm not unwilling to spend $$ on a replacement but want to feel good about it... if there's a lot of useful life left on the unit (5+ years), then I'd rather wait. If it's likely to die soon, it makes a lot more sense to replace. I know you get a couple points higher SEER with the 2-stage AC but is it worth the extra cost given the climate here--avg high temp in July is 84, though humidity is also usually high in the summer.

Thanks again for all the thoughts.
tigerdunes
11 years ago
Two stage AC condenser not required. Stay with a good high eff sgl stage model properly sized with best matching coil.

IMO
joeplumb
11 years ago
"Joeplumb,

If you think the original furnace was over sized, then why would recommend getting a new furnace which has a larger output? "

Read the entire post. Has 100K -- who knows what he needs.

He needs somebody to either calculate the requirement or experiment with his existing one to get it empirically'
This last is tricky. The way I would do it is set thermostat
super high so the furnace runs constantly and at equilibrium get the indoor temperature. Now if you assume say 80K output for the present furnace, you need approximately
80*(70-T0)/(Th-T0))
70 assumed indoor required temperature or whatever you need
Th= temperature the house reaches for full on furnace
T0 outside temperature at the time of experiment
joeplumb
11 years ago
"Joeplumb,

If you think the original furnace was over sized, then why would recommend getting a new furnace which has a larger output? "

Read the entire post. Has 100K -- who knows what he needs.

He needs somebody to either calculate the requirement or experiment with his existing one to get it empirically'
This last is tricky. The way I would do it is set thermostat
super high so the furnace runs constantly and at equilibrium get the indoor temperature. Now if you assume say 80K output for the present furnace, you need approximately
80*(70-T0)/(Th-T0))
70 assumed indoor required temperature or whatever you need
Th= temperature the house reaches for full on furnace
T0 outside temperature at the time of experiment

New furnace quote

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