Check your home insurance about the true commercial range. I think you may have trouble there. Besides, there are clearance issues on the sides, not just the back wall. Seriously, I've followed the Appliances and Kitchens forums for more than 10 years (our remodel was 2002), and you do not want a commercial range. Yeah, sounds groovy. But you don't want one.

This doesn't answer your question, but it's the basic part of your quandary.

Nah, I do - but that's another story :-)

To my mind a broiler or salamander is close to the food so it cooks thin stuff or browns real well but you can cook larger/thicker pieces on top of a grill that you couldn't under a broiler. You need both!

as to true commercial stuff in a home...if you have the room and want the horsepower, why not?

The heat/clearance issue is solvable, the issues I see are in venting and provision of gas. You will need to vent it properly and that often means a make up air system and those are expensive, they need fire suppression in them, need annual inspection and service and are a bit noisy.

also, I don't know the specs but I doubt your gas line leading into your home is large enough to run commercial equipment, so you may have to dig up your yard and have a larger feed line put in place which will require all your other gas equipment to need to be choked back down to residential specs. so you need your furnace, heatpump, dryer, gas grill, etc. all modified to allow you to have a large, commercial stove.

Can you say "money"?

Suppose the rack on a broiler/salamander were adjusted to place the meat the same distance from the burner as the distance from a range-top grill to the burner underneath. There is usually a sufficient adjustment. Could the broiler then cook larger/thicker pieces as well as a grill does? Are most range-top grills using a bigger or smaller burner than a broiler has?

What I am getting at is, why is a broiler not completely equivalent to an upside-down grill? Other than the absence of ''grill marks'', that is?

Mark Bittman says that broiling and grilling really are pretty much the same.

For one thing, heated air and other gases rise, they don't fall, so the same distance above and below won't mean the same heat intensity at the surface of the meat.

What salamanders are you looking at? I've heard them referred to as cheese melters and in my mind that sounds more like a "finishing" device than a real broiler. Bluestar sells a residential salamander, but the burners are lower powered than the broilers in their ovens and I've read that their ovens are better for broiling.

gellchom ''Mark Bittman says that broiling and grilling really are pretty much the same.''

Thanks for that tip. I found his article (linked) and here's a bit of it:

The broiler is free � that is to say, you already own one � and easy to use. It is essentially an upside-down grill, but it produces results you cannot duplicate any other way. It even has a couple of distinct advantages over the outdoor grill and the countertop version.

Broiling, though, requires some different techniques, and it's taken me some time and a little rewriting of the rules to optimize my skills. [lots of instructions]

Now you're ready. What can you cook? Almost anything, although some foods are more cooperative than others: meat of all kinds, especially steaks and chops; fish, from steaks like tuna or swordfish to fillets both thick and thin; shellfish; chicken (usually best without skin, which, as every experienced griller knows, readily catches fire); and even vegetables, especially tomatoes, peppers and chilies. [more instructions]

There. If I'd told you I had an appliance that could brown like a grill, was as convenient as your oven, and cooked most food in less than 10 minutes, you'd buy it. But you don't need to

I think Bittman overlooks the fact that most residential broilers require us to sit on the floor - or, worse, lay on our stomachs - to monitor the broiling. And that most residential oven broilers are awful - a narrow line of heat so the center of the steak gets charred and the ends not so much. But I'm glad to read his tips.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bittman Says

Well... a grill uses charcoal for one thing. Food juices drip down on the coals making smoke that flavors the food. Sometimes I sprinkle a bit of black pepper on my coals with produces a quick burst of pepper flavored smoke (don't get it in your eyes).

Broilers have some advantage in that they are more comfortable to use when the wind is blowing and the temps below zero. We just had a thaw here and my grill rose up out of the melting snow drift that had covered it. I've never used the broiler on my stove... pan fried my steaks for the last couple months. Alas... 5-8 inches of blowing snow forecast for tonight... bye bye grill until the next thaw.... should be an "interesting" ride home from work.

: )
lyra

John,

Broiling and grilling are definitely not the same .... no how, no way, regardless of Mr. Bittman's view. The whole purpose of grilling whether outdoors or inside is flavor. With grilling, the heat-source is below the items being cooked. The heat is diffused by way of some type of radiant( ceramic, cast iron or other material). As the food begins to cook, juices and fats drip down onto the hot radiants and vaporize. This smoke rises via natural air currents and "sticks" to the moist surface of the food and is responsible for that characteristic charbroiled flavor. You just can't duplicate that flavor with a traditional broiler or salamander.

In regards to a true commercial range: When I remodeled my kitchen sixteen years ago, I was looking at the then limited selection of pro styled residential ranges. They were ridiculously expensive(still are) and grossly underpowered. I went to a local restaurant supply to look at their commercial ranges and became fast friends with the owner.

I couldn't believe the difference in price; less than half! Burners rated at 26000 BTU's .... all of them. I knew that that was what I wanted to buy and asked if he would sell me one. He said he would on one condition. I had to have a document from my insurance company stating that they would continue my homeowners insurance with said range installed. I contacted my insurance company and told them of my plans. They told me that as long as the range was installed to code there would be no issue.

I purchased a Wolf six burner Challenger series restaurant range and a seventeen inch TEC infrared charbroiler and have enjoyed every minute cooking on them. The only caveat with commercial equipment is a voided warranty. That was a risk I was willing to take as there is/was nothing electric or electronic about them.

I should caution you that commercial equipment is only marginally insulated and gets extremely hot so not a good choice for a household with small children. Since there are no electronics, all burners are lit with standing pilots which can make for a rather warm kitchen. Top burner pilots can be turned of permanently and lit with a "firestick" which is my method of choice.

Well, of course they are different. The difference is that I can turn on the broiler but I can never get the grill lit. The other difference is that I have to lie on my stomach on the kitchen floor to use the broiler.

The similarity is that food cooked either way by me comes out blackened. I thought that's how it was supposed to be.

Oh, you mean on other people's equipment and in their kitchens? Oh.....um......never mind.

Annie

Ha ha, Annie. I have a similar complaint. I have to squat on the floor, oven door open and heat drying out my face, to broil. As much as 40 is the new 20 and 50 is the new 30 and similar twaddle, the fact is that I don't spring up from a broiling squat as lively-like as I did, back when I was, well, by the new math, apparently zero years old.

Posted by johnliu " Spinning, vertiginously, in an M.S. Escher painting here. ---"

A very interesting visualization of a cerebral quandary.

However, depending on which Escher painting you are referring to. True, some illustrates spinning vertiginously, but some have other allegorical meanings to me.

Take the ones showing fish and birds fitting into each other�s negative space and they compliment each other perfectly. Which is what I feel grilling and boiling can be.

Broiling with heating from above over food by open flame or electric, it cooks mostly with infra red radiation and is incapable of cooking the underside of food until the heat from the top of the food eventually propagates down to the bottom of the food by conduction. A broiler/salamander is mostly used to brown or heat the top of food such as in onion soup or melting cheese on burgers, or grill one side of a steak. Food can be cooked very well in a broiler by using a rotating mechanism, in which case it becomes a rotisserie.

Grilling with fire or heat from below is a combination of radiation and conduction. It will cook effectively the bottom of food, and partially by conduction to the top of food from rising heated partial laminar air flow enveloping the food totally. Grilling on a griddle is mostly by conduction.

By combining broiling and grilling in an enclosed environment, you will essentially have a baking oven.

dcarch

For me it is all about flavour. Grilled steaks taste better.

Ann

What's this "om the floor" stuff? You need a separate cooktop and wall ovens. (Note plural, oven**s**, why only have one?) I would hate to ever go back to a range. It's just not civilized. If you are doing a kitchen remodel anyway, this is the way to go.

sushipup, we did 2 kitchens in 5 years and after careful consideration decided on a range both times. I like having a range under the hood when I broil fish, saute onions, garlic etc. Ideally if my kit were big enough I would do an all gas range and one electric built in wall oven.

Those double ovens would eat up counter/cabinet space that isn't available in medium to small kitchens!

I'm with Shushipup with the on the floors stuff. She beat me to the question. I can't say I've ever squatted, sat or laid down on the floor while broiling food. After blackening more than my fair share of biscotti, I've learned to set the timer. It's a great invention. My oven "window" is very difficult to see through, anyway. They put spots on it. I don't know why, but they did. All the ovens I shopped for when I was shopping for them were like that.

Sally

I have cooked on 2 stoves with "pretty good" broilers. Onew as a Chambers range circa 1946. It had a broiler that sat in the cook top and served as both a griddle and a broiler. The gas element was right under the griddle top. BUT it also had a crank that allowed you to adjust the height of the surface below the heating element and you could broil in the chamber below the griddle. That stove also had a deep well. It was a model "C"...scroll down....
http://www.chamberstoves.net/Models.html

The next stove with a sort of working broiler, was a Frigidaire circa about 1969 and electric...Ack! hate electric stoves....but it was in the house when we bought.
It had a additional broiler element that fitted into a connection in the large oven and when you set the oven on broil 2 heating elements would heat with a rack between, and a pan full of water below to catch any drips. Smoked like a forest fire...smoke alarm screamed, smpke poured out the windows and you couldn'ts ee whatw as going on in the oven.

I now have a separate Jenn-Aire grill in my counter top. It works well....but not as well as the Gas Weber a few steps away on the deck.

For the money you are thinking of for the broiler/ salamander etc....build a roof over a space for your gas grill and buy a propane torch for making creme brule.
Linda C

My stove (it's too cheap to be called a range, LOL) has an oven, but the broiler is on the bottom, under the oven and right above the floor. No way can you see what's in the broiler, or even slide something under the broiler without getting down on the floor. I used to be able to get down on my hands and knees to use the broiler, but now I have one knee that complains, so it's flat on my stomach on the floor.

I'm not going to do a kitchen remodel because Elery and I plan to build sometime in the next few years. No room for a second oven or even a countertop oven in my small kitchen. Oh, and the clearance between the built in table and the built in island is 22 inches, so that's the space I have to lie down in to check the broiler.

So, by the time I get the food under the broiler, get back up, find an ovenproof space to set the broiler pan on when I take it out, get back down to flip or remove the food, it can be....well.....overdone.

Yup, here's my broiler:

I bought the stove when I was a single Mom and so dead broke I was considering applying for food stamps, so it's not fancy. I'll leave it with this house when I sell it.

The grill? I'm just too impatient. Even if I get it lit, which is a miracle, I think "I have time to just quickly do XXXXXX", and by the time I come back I've had a flare up or some other grill disaster and dinner is incinerated. I'm not good at things I have to stand next to and tend for any period of time.

Annie

When I renovated, I went from a separate cooktop and oven to a 36" AG range. No regrets. I like having my oven/broiler exhaust under the range hood. And I've never knelt or laid on the floor during broiler use.

I would NEVER opt for an indoor grill. The venting costs are exorbitant! (as opposed to the merely enormous $$$ incurred to vent current set-up.) I don't mind saving the grilling for outdoors in my too-short summer. Winter is for soups, stews, braises, etc. Searing on the stovetop, then finishing in a hot oven also produces tasty, but not too smoky results.

If you put the indoor grill in at the time of a remodel the vent isn't any more than venting a dryer....

Linda C, that is too easy! :)

I grilled a turkey for Thanksgiving outside in Detroit. I don't see why you'd absoLUTEly need a little shelter over your grill, but if you do, it's an excellent thing to add on when remodeling a kitchen. Best of everything.

"If you put the indoor grill in at the time of a remodel the vent isn't any more than venting a dryer...."

It all depends on where you live and what prevailing building codes are in place. I did a complete kitchen gut/remodel, and running a duct straight up through my attic and roof was trivial. However, installing the heated make-up air system for my 600cfm exhaust fan cost around $8K. Indoor grills typically require 1200 cfm, which would have been in the $20K neighbourhood. For that, we could eat out at our best local steakhouse quite regularly!

"-----It all depends on where you live and what prevailing building codes are in place. ---"

Very true. In addition:

That kind of CFM typically means a "squirrel cageâ type of blower with a hermitically sealed induction motor, not a fan type of blower. Actually, it is not a blower; it sucks air to pass thru the filter. Duct size will need to be larger than 5 inches dia. And depending on length of run and number of bents; it can get to be 6â to 7âÂÂ. Flex ducts are not recommended.

You will also need a good size grease filter. Even with a grease filter, the ducts will need maintenance depending on how and what you cook. Occasionally, the centrifugal blower gets laden with grease and become unbalanced and will create noise and vibration, in which case it will need to be replaced.

Plan the path of your venting system logically, don't let the contractor take short cuts.

dcarch

My attempt at grilling - Annie's place, 2005

Good times!

ROFL, Jessica, that was some grill, wasn't it? The bottom was rusting out, and the burner worked on one side. (grin) I've since gotten a new one, albeit the $69 special at Menard's. I assembled the blasted thing and although Elery can use it, I can never get the darned thing to light, go figure.

That was a fun week or so, though, wasn't it? We ended up cooking for Janet's freezer just before she passed away, and that's when we first met Nancy and Kim too.

Annie

'' don't see why you'd absoLUTEly need a little shelter over your grill ''

Alas, it rains 25 hours a day here in Portland. I am prepared to swear to it.

Ahhhh you wimpy left coaster! :) You just need a roof!

(Says me who moved back to CA from MI after grilling a turkey in the snow.)

I broiled some little ribeyes tonight, following Bitman's procedure. Place steaks on counter, oil and salt all sides, let sit for a couple hours or until interior reaches at least 50F, do not trim fat. Turn broiler to high, set rack to highest, place empty cast iron pan under broiler, come back in 20 min, place steaks in pan under broiler, broil until 115F internal, remove to warmed plate, coast to 120F, slice, dust with truffle salt, drizzle with melted butter.

Worked passably. The outside is still not crusty enough - I like it almost crunchy - but perhaps more heat or dusting with flour or brushing with butter before broiling will help. I should have pre-heated the pan longer, and raised it closer to the flame. As it was, I had to torch some of the lighter parts. The edges are not crusty at all, I had to use a torch on them too.

I think - very tentatively - that for the crusty outside-rare inside steaks I like, the broiler is going to work just fine.

Rather than broiling why don't you just sear the steak on one side, flip and then place the cast iron skillet in a 500ðF oven for a few minutes. Timing will depend on thickness of the steak and whether you prefer rare, medium rare, etc...

I grill year around regardless of weather (including when I lived in Northern Ontario), but will occasionally do the cast iron oven method. Especially if I'm making Moe a steak and egg breakfast. Even cooking rare you should be able to get a decent crust.

Ann

Nice breakfast, ann.

I do sear steak too. My only quibble with pan-searing is that if the steak's surface is not very flat (e.g. a bone-in), the low points (that aren't in contact the pan) don't get crusty enough.

Time to try broiling chicken, hot dogs, and burgers, which are the other things I usually do on a grill.

I am starting to think the broiler will give me plenty of fierce ''direct heat''. The next step will be to figure out if there is some way to coax the broiler into delivering the slow ''indirect heat'' that you can also get with a grill, and then to see if pre-heating some wood chips helps re-create any ''grill flavour''.

John, I'm just trying to understand. Is there a reason why you don't want to grill? Just trying to understand why you want to broil if you have a grill handy?

For me cooking is all about flavour and there is no way that you are going to get the same flavour from a broiler that you get from grilling.

Ann

Get an umbrella, John! Promise you won't melt.

Ann T, I think the weather in Portland, where he is, is too rainy right now for him to grill comfortably.

I think instead of an umbrella, perhaps one of those little canvase type tent/awnings, freestanding, to go over the grill.

C'mon John, you can do this. (grin) And I want pictures when you do!

Annie

''I'm just trying to understand. Is there a reason why you don't want to grill? Just trying to understand why you want to broil if you have a grill handy?''

Are all you sadists trying to shame me into being a real man and, gasp, grilling outdoors?! I knew women had a cruel streak, but golly!

During the nice days of spring, summer, and fall I do use the gas grill - so that's about a month each year. Feels like it, anyway.

The rest of the time . . . this week, for instance, it has been about a wet 34-38F, raining with occasional light hail. I'm not sure there's been more than 5 genuinely sunny days since October ended. Today we are a pleasant 32F with periods of wet snow, tonight is supposed to be 20F with snow/freezing rain.

I could put on my rain gear and stand, shivering and dripping in the soaking wind, in front of a steaming grill watching my chicken turn soggy. If I had an umbrella, it would be better. I'd merely be shivering.

No, what actually happens is that everything in my backyard gets covered with tarps in November and doesn't get unwrapped and scrubbed down for mold until April. I hardly even set foot in my backyard during those months. One January, I took a wrong turn and found myself standing in a 6'' pool of water out there - the drain had clogged and the patio where the grill lives had been underwater for weeks, maybe months.

I admit it. I am a wimpy Californian. I live in a place where we get 42 inches of rain a year and everyone is Vitamin D deficient.

Sigh.

John, I live in a place that gets at least that much rain a year. It rains here all the time. At the current home my grill is on a covered porch. But in two other homes the grill wasn't covered and that never stopped me from grilling at least once a week and sometimes more. It isn't like you have to stand out side the whole time the meat is cooking. Could you pull your gas grill closer to the door?

I don't want to call you a wimp, but......when I lived in Northern Ontario I grilled in 40 below weather and kept a path shoveled between the back door and the grill.

Ann

[John, and she walked 5 miles each way to school everyday, and it was uphill both ways, too.]

I am sooooo wimpy. ;-)

LOL, add me to the wimp list. I'll go out when it's 20 below and throw hay into the feeder and I'll fix fence when the snow is up to my armpits, but I don't like anything grilled well enough to go outside this time of year to do it. Heck, I barely grill when the weather is good!

I shovel my driveway and I shovel the mailbox so the mail person can drive up to it. I shovel the sidewalk and my roof and the porch steps. I shovel a place for Pancho to go outside and pee, but I am NOT shovelling out the grill. (grin) I'm not sure I can even find it in the backyard under the snow right now anyway, even with a shovel..

Annie

But if you're remodeling your kitchen, spec out having a grill lean-to constructed. You'll stay dry and the grill will keep you warm. You know, if you're INTO grilling, you'd have that. :)

There's always George Foreman. Hehe! But aren't there electric countertop grill units? Set one up on a cookie sheet balanced across your stove burners, turn up the vent hood, and make smoke!

"Are all you sadists trying to shame me into being a real man and, gasp, grilling outdoors?! I knew women had a cruel streak, but golly!"

I think you should do what you want John. If you don't want to grill in a hurricane - then don't. If you never adjusted to that kind of weather there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm beginning to understand why I like Texas and Oklahoma so much. We have just enough snow and cold to make it interesting, and then it's back to 70 degree days in February!

John, I don't understand all the technology y'all are speaking of, but I do hope you are happy with whatever decision you make.

(With that weather, no wonder DS is considering giving up his job hunt in Portland and moving back to Texas.)

Sally