So very sorry to hear this bad news. Hugs to your family, and your cousins family. May the end be painless for her.

Sorry that was Monday she had paracentsis, Tuesday was the good day but Wed turned worse again. Hard to keep track b/c I've been getting daily updates from her sister.

It has been less than a year since their dad (my godfather) died - K put him in hospice just a year ago, that was so hard for her and she doesn't want to go herself but feels it would be better for her kids. I can't even think of what her kids are going through, she initially didn't want them to know what type of cancer she has b/c she didn't want them to google it but I'm sure by now they know. I don't know how/if she/her sister has prepared them for the end, her DH strikes me as kind of goofy, he's only taken her to 1 chemo and didn't call the dr when she started sleeping all the time, maybe he's still in shock and denial, I don't know. Her sister seems to be the grounding element in the family, I think she's become like another mom to them over the past 6 months, even though they were close before.

Thanks for the cyberhugs. I read the email about 3 hrs ago and cried myself to sleep but now I'm awake, will probably be checking this thread all night b/c I don't know if I can get back to sleep.

Our 97-yr old great-uncle is also in the hospital, his kidneys are failing. I will have to get an update from his DD, my mom and dad didn't know much (got a phone call Sunday saying he had been in hospital, my mom bumped into his GD yesterday and she said he was back in). Then I'll have to call )great-great)Uncle Leo - called him last yr after my godfather's funeral, he was very upset that he missed it (and my godmother's in Jan) b/c no one ever remembers him even though he lives right around the corner from K (and is her mom's uncle), he's on my grandma's side not my grandpa's and last relative on that side is my grandma's baby brother who lives in Mexico. Not sure if anyone is going to contact *him*, he might be up for the summer, I'll have to call, maybe he'll call his uncle Leo but they're both so hard of hearing. Sorry, I'm rambling...

We lost a lot of posts..
I'm so sorry. I can imagine how you feel plus all the stress with your house.

Discuss with her sister; them putting her in a medical coma. I don't know how painful her death will be but have them ask if it's an option. Someone at a message board I used to go to did that for her hubby. She also should ask if morphine will prolong her life. Hopefully she can make her wishes known right now while she's still able to. My dad stopped being able to speak at some point; but he was able to blink his eyes yes & no about pain. He did not want to have morphine.

~Hugs

Porch is done so that stress is over (just the normal stress of living in an unfinished house).

"L" was heading to to hospital an hour ago when she emailed everyone, I will email her and tell her what you said but she won't be able to ask today. And who knows what today will bring? I don't know why they took K off morphine or if she's back on. Are you saying morphine will prolong her life? How do they induce the coma? That sounds good, we hope she can have 1 more good day like Tuesday so she can say goodbye to her kids, but then they can do coma since she didn't want them to see her yesterday, it was lucky they came during paracentesis so went back home. I think that if she was in a coma they would deal with it better than knowing she was in pain (even with morphine) and didn't want them to see her. Maybe she'd allow them to visit if she were "sleeping" and they wanted to see her, of course it's up to their dad and aunt too at that point.

And how are *you* doing dear?

How very sad for K and her family. Hopefully someone can step in and help the children through this. Maybe the hospice workers, who in my opinion are saints walking among us.

The husband of a friend of mine died suddenly and unexpectedly, though he had medical problems. I took her out for lunch a week later and it almost seemed as if on some level his death hadn't quite registered with her yet.

From what I understand, morphine prolongs life. Look at Farrah; they expected her to pass; ended up putting her on morphine & she lasted 3 weeks. My dad; who's body started shutting down on a Friday (or should I say hospice confirmed it Friday) we gave him 1/2 the dose of morphine & it was not as directed every 2 to 4 hours; he went longer. The Monday he passed, he had a 1/2 dose before I went to my appointment (probably around 8am) then another 1/2 dose after 2; then I gave him a 1/2 dose after the nurse left; probably around 9pm.

Not sure about the medical coma but I'd imagine it's by IV. The gal who posted said he was very peaceful.

We're doing ok. He had a CT last week we go to Philly today. He'll have a body scan in the next month.

How are you holding up?

So sorry to read about this, Ajsmama, and I hope you're doing OK. I'm not too good with words, but please know that I'm thinking about you and your family and hoping that everything continues peacefully. Take care, sweetie.

Let the patient have his morphine, even if it means prolonging life a measly few weeks. It is too cruel to force him to live in that kind of pain to hasten his death.

Having been through cancer pain myself, I can assure you that the physical pain of cancer is unbearable. When the pt is also unable to communicate, or the doctor is unavailable to authorize another dose and the pt is just left to lie in excruciating pain, it is cruel on an unimaginable level.

Can't morphine induce a coma? My FIL was given morphine at the end of his fight with cancer (leukemia)and it did not extend things, it simply made him sleep and not suffer. He was not put on morphine (best I remember), until they new in was in the end stages. I know it slowed his heart rate considerable, so I do not see how it would prolong things, but I would also assume it would have to do with the doseage.

I'm sorry AJsmama for you and your family. My mother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer about a month ago. She will undergo surgery (a whipple procedure) on July 9. I feel your pain, and hope that the end for K is peaceful and without pain.

tina

That's what I was wondering - since it seemed roselvr was saying *not* to give morphine since it can prolong life (and suffering), I was wondering if they induce coma using morphine whether it's prolonging life. Though K might not be suffering in a coma, prolonging her life in a coma may prolong her family's suffering. There's just no easy answer, is there? Though I agree with shermann, if there's a choice b/t prolonging someone's life w/o pain or a quick but painful death then I'd want to make it easier for the pt rather than myself. That's up to K to decide, though.

Tina - I am sorry, hope your mom has a better outcome than my cousin. I read that Judge Ginsburg had surgery for early-stage cancer. Hope they caught your mom's early enough. Please keep us updated.

roselvr - things were looking good for your DH at last scan, right? Though I know he had a rough time there after the surgery. You too, take care of yourself, I know those long rides are hard on your back. I'm doing OK - got about 4 hrs of sleep last night after going back to bed, it was hard (crying) typing 1st post this AM but (this sounds cruel) K and I aren't terribly close so I am able to function - trying to clean up porch and caulk nail holes b4 it rains, yesterday was too hot (and today will be too).

I've been getting closer to L with weekly (or more frequent) email updates and through them I've gotten to know more about K and her kids (though L doesn't mention her BIL, K's DH much) so it's tough seeing *them* go through this.

I dread having to tell DD about Uncle Will though, she knows him, can't wait to go pick his blueberries like we did last year when I fixed his fence. She still gets weepy sometimes about my godmother, who she knew better but not extremely well. For a while last year (it was Jan 2009 she died, not this Jan) DD was obsessed with death. I don't want to have that surface again but if we don't go picking this summer I know she'll ask about him, and I don't know if she was paying attention last night when my mom told me his GD said he has pneumonia, or if she heard them talking in the park where they met.

Sending you and your family all good thoughts and hugs. Hospice is such a wonderful thing whether at home or not, in my experience. I agree that, when one gets to the point of terrible pain, morphine is such a gift, although I have known some who don't want that loss of consciousness and awareness. Whether or not it prolongs anything rather depends on the dosage.

I wish all of you comfort and, in time, memories of joy and laughter.

AJsmama, I too am very sorry for what you and your family are going through. Cancer is an ugly disease, I've lost my share of family members. The most recent, the most awful, being by Dad. He was diagnosed with lung cancer that had metastsized to his bones (ribs) on January 18th, and he died on February 10th. The last few days were especially horrible, and we were so grateful for the morphine which made him sleep (basically a coma at the end) and obviously helped him rest more comfortably. I don't think it extended his life any - he lasted only about 25 days from the time he was diagnosed.

I hope the end for your cousin will be as peaceful and painless as possible. It is a difficult journey to take with someone you are so close to, when you know the end is coming quickly and can't be avoided. I have a 41 yr. old cousin with ovarian cancer who just missed a chemo treatment because her blood was too low, also. I am fearful for her right now too. Cancer is an ugly disease.

AJsmama, I am so sorry for your cousin, your family-- and oh gosh, those poor children. It is a lot to deal with-- but especially when you are so far away. I know it is hard but please do try to sleep.. it is healing in so many ways and will give you strength to get through these awful days.

Let the patient have his morphine, even if it means prolonging life a measly few weeks. It is too cruel to force him to live in that kind of pain to hasten his death.

I never said to not give morphine & let the person suffer. I said her cousin should be the one making the decision about how much medication she wants because I feel that they just give what they want without taking into consideration if a person even has pain or not. Take my hub when he had that fungal infection in his mouth; he needed pain killer the 1st 24 hours; they never weaned him; just disconnected him after 4 days and sent him home. I was not there the 1st 24 hours; when I got there the next day he had not pushed his morphine button but was still getting it via IV. The nurse came in at one point & told him to push the button; with her hand on his to do it and he was knocked out. He had no clue & does not want to be like that again.

My dad was able to tell me if he wanted/needed it; he did not want to be knocked out. He did not have pain. There are other drugs besides morphine. My hub is a cancer patient, he said the morphine didn't do much there was a different medication called Dilaudid that was better for pain.

I'd read after Farrah died that morphine can prolong life & I wish I would have thought to ask while we were in Philly today. There was also something on the Philadelphia news about a year ago on how life is actually prolonged by drugs like morphine when they aren't needed. This in turn can leave the family with lots of debt. It was a story on draining insurance companies & families

I just did a google search - American Journal of Hospice & palliative Medicine - sedatives and opioids are known to decrease the demand for oxygen in patients with cardiorespiratory distress, these agents might thus actually prolong life rather than hasten death.

My hub has written instructions if the time comes. I know he would want to be comfortable but he wouldn't want something prolonging it. If he could be awake & comfortable; that would be his 1st choice.

As I said, her cousin hopefully has let them know what she wants. If she hasn't. then hopefully someone that can make a good decision and ask questions is with her. If she is going to have a painful death; a coma is probably the best thing if they can do it.

Copy & pasting what I found about medically induced coma.. This is specifically written for brain injuries.

I wish I still went to the message board; I'd ask the gal what they gave her hubby. She said they said goodbye; the drug was given & he pretty much went to sleep. He was gone within 2 days IIRC.

If these methods donÂt work, a last resort is to use medically induced coma - a state of deep unconsciousness.

An anesthesiologist is called in to initiate the process. The patient is given either pentobarbital (a barbiturate) or propofol (a sedative), either of which induce profound coma. The brain wave activity on the patientÂs EEG is flat, and the patient is completely unresponsive to all external stimuli (pain, light, noise, etc.). The basic idea is to put the brain to rest by closing down as much activity as possible. Doctors monitor the intracranial pressure in order to determine how long to maintain the coma because coma itself is associated with problems due to immobility, including pneumonia, blood clots, and muscle paralysis or weakness that may persist once the person regains consciousness. Maintaining the patientÂs nutritional status during this time can also be challenging.

Thanks roselvr - I got your email (I didn't reply b/c our DSL went out right after I read it since it was raining). I will mention it to L when the time comes. Got an email from her this AM, K is moving to hospice Monday, getting a catheter put in to drain fluids. They're preparing the kids, the social workers will talk to them. K is worried about her DH trying to raise the kids by himself (L said this is first time K really thought she might not beat this thing). L told her that she and her DH will be there always, and there are so many family and friends nearby that have offered to help, the 3 of them will not be alone. I wish I knew what to do - we don't live far, but their kids are older and I can't see them wanting to hang out with my kids (I'm sure they want to hang with their school friends anyway), and I can't really help DH with (soon-to-be) teenage girl which I'm sure he's worried about as a single dad, b/c I haven't dealt with it myself. About all I can do is cook for them (kicking myself for not offering earlier, L never mentioned that they might need that, who knows, maybe K's DH or DD has been doing the cooking, they did get cleaning lady).

They're not moving K - decided b/c of insurance co-pays to leave her in the hospital and do "in-patient hospice." At least she will have the social workers and I believe the nurses that she has had this past week.

They talked to the kids with the social worker today - K finally told them what she's up against (though I think they pretty much figured it out themselves). L says they handled it very maturely - I don't know how mature I'd act if I found out (for sure) that my mom was dying. But I'm glad they know they have someone to talk to outside the family, heck, I'm glad they know they can finally talk *to* their family and probably finally get straight answers. K has been trying to protect them.

She had a rough night last night but they did Xrays and couldn't find anything that would be causing acute pain on her left side. But they did put her back on a morphine drip (the pills had been making her nauseated). Maybe it's almost time to mention the coma to L...

K's kids are sooooo lucky to be able to speak with the kids. That is so important. My SIL was camping with family when my BIL had to return home to work a few days and would return to finish trip. He had a big goodbye with each of the kids and told them he loved them and to be good, he would be back. He had an accident a few days later and never returned. But that farewell was so important, more than he would have ever known. Most people don't get to say goodbyes but his kids did. They cherish that. K's kids will take that with them their entire lives.

Being an aunt who lives about 5hr drive away I made my usual trips to visit, they came to see me. The kids were 15, 13 and 8. My baby was only 9mo. I could not relate to a teen either. So I just continued to be her aunt as usual. I know situation is different because L will be raising a girl, but my sis has two boys and could not be a man to them. She did what she could. I did what I could, and I continue. The oldest just graduated college. More than any family member she wanted me to be there, it meant the world to her. I was so shocked because I wish I had been there more for her over the years. But to her every visit was special, no matter how far in between. And the middle boy, who is now going to college about 80miles away has asked to spend more time with me and my kids. Like camping and ballgames. He wants to be with me, thinks I am the best aunt ever.

So you see, no matter how much or how little just being you is what they need. And you will be able to tell stories about their mom that they will cherish.

Personally, L and his dd have probably been managing but it would be nice for you to surprise them with a dinner here and there. Or offer to take her to the mall. The most important thing you can do is just be you. If you are somewhat close to her you can let your neice know that she can come to you about "girl" things anytime. She probably won't but just knowing she can is nice. Then check back with her. Who knows, maybe she will want to babysit. Don't promise to be there for everything. Just promise to be their aunt as you always have been.

I also hope that in this time you have spoken to K if you are close to her, it sounds like you are. Let L know he can call on you. Just be there whenever.

I wish your entire family peace.

How is she doing?

I didn't check email this AM - DD and I spent a couple hours picking blackberries after I read the paper (DH and DS went hiking). I called my uncle about family reunion/pig roast on Sat and he told me that K died at 6:30 this AM. She mentioned the pig roasts she remembered at her dad's funeral last fall, my uncle was having this one in her honor though we realized a few weeks ago she wouldn't be coming. I don't know any of the funeral arrangements yet, I hope her BIL, sister, DH and kids can make it on Sat.

Her sister has been praying that K can be released from her pain, I don't know if it was easier for her family that it happened when she was alone or not. I don't think she really knew - she's been really out of it lately. She mentioned a couple of weeks ago that it felt like a bad dream, I hope she was peaceful at the end, the beginning of the week she was agitated about the Foley and had to be sedated. Told her son 4 days ago that she had been in a car crash, was in the hospital and would be home soon.

Friday was a good day, and L said the chaplin was in to bless K (but not last rites) yesterday, didn't say much else (other than talking about the great nurses and dr) in the email last night.

I am so sorry, AJ. May your family find peace. I hope the kids are OK. (((Hugs)))

While there is really no good time or way for someone whom you care about to die, from what you've told us about her, I'm not sure she would have minded that she was alone. I have the impression she wanted very much to protect the people she loved, and it might have been harder for her if she knew they were present and in distress about her letting go.

My sincere condolences.

Thank you. littledog, I think you're right. Maybe that's the reason she passed an hour b4 her sister usually goes in. Actually, I hope K was sleeping at the time (probably, 6:30AM and she's been sleeping most of the time anyway). I will tell her family that she planned it that way if they express distress over not being with her at that time.

It feels strange to get up and check my email and not find one from L. Maybe she's sleeping in after a month of getting up early (most days fighting commuter traffic) to get to the hospital. We might not even get an email from her at all today, it might take a couple of days to make arrangements. I don't even know if they're going to have a Mass for extended family, have only immediate family, or delay it (for months? like her father's?) for a more convenient time, so some of the cousins who live in other states can make it.

oh how sad, I will say though that putting her on morphine was a very good thing. She probably was unconscious prior to her death, not just sleeping. I agree with the above that she wanted to handle this her way, keeping family away from the acutual death-though on the other side, it did not give the family anytime for closure with her. Good luck.

My condolences to you and your family. Thanks for keeping us updated.

I'm so sorry. How weird that I bumped the post.. you & I have some sort of connection.

How her family will feel will depend on the people. Some find comfort being there while others don't. I also believe that the patient has some "say" (for lack of a better word) in when they do go.

My dad filled out the 5 Wishes & did not want anyone with him when he passed (according to that) but he waited for me to come back from running home (7 blocks) to take a quick shower & compose myself after the DNA test. He passed within an hour of me getting back.

I hope that counseling is offered to her kids. My daughter refused & I feel it would have been a little easier on her had she talked to someone. I took her to 3 different people, none could get her to talk; even play/art therapy.

~Hugs to your family

Blessings to you and your family. My tears are flowing but just knowing K is at peace is comforting.

The time ahead for her kids will never be easy, but life does have to go on.

My BIL passed when my neice was 15, she is 28 and now fears marriage. Not marriage, not the man she is with, but actually getting married. She would rather avoid marriage than deal with who will walk her down the aisle, how to avoid the dad/dd dance, etc. Just another issue to deal with. With all our love and support she will be fine and hopefully will find a way to do this.

Counseling for everyone is really important. K's dh is probably not handling this well at all from what you have said. This happens. I have been asked if my dh needs prozac or such because of my cancer. It is common for spouses to handle illness/death worse than the afflicted spouse.

Kids need counseling even if they seem ok. I highly recommend you checking into it however you can. My nephew was 8 when BIL passed tragically. He seemed fine until 5 years later when he blurted out that he thought it was my sisters fault that he died. He thought all those years that my sis made him go home and because of that he died. (while camping he had to go home for a few days to work, planning to return to family but was killed in accident at home). My sis kicks herself for not making him go to counseling years ago. Sad for a little boy to harbor that for so long.

Roselvr- I totally understand your dd's refusal. My neice did not participate in counseling, she was 15 and refused to talk. I do think a jounnal would have helped her though. My sis did do counseling herself, for years. It has been 12yrs and she hasn't gone in a long time. She returned recently and counselor gave her 3 bags of journals which sis had completed, she totally forgot that she even had them. She found great comfort reading them and actually thinks she may have them printed into books as some read like love stories.

Shannon; you're so right about the spouse. NOTHING was offered to me.. they would ask how I was but no one would really "ask" if you know what I mean. Hub got a PET script today; he's 6 months out & I'm terrified it will come back because he said he will not fight again. We're nearing the 1 year "cancer-versary" when this all started 1st week of August; I feel like I'm waiting for the nightmare to begin again.

I did a lot of writing when my dad was diagnosed & wish I would have kept up the private blog I have after hub was diagnosed. I kick myself for not writing there every day.

roselvr - we must have some sort of connection b/c I was just logging on to update anyway. I never got your email about DD - let me know how she's doing. When's DH going for the PET? I'm sure you'll feel better once that "cancer-versary" has come and gone and the PET is clean.

Shannon - I'm glad your BIL got to say goodbye to his kids, though they didn't know it was the final goodbye at the time. I guess K's kids didn't know either, though at least they pretty much knew over the last week that any day could be the last. Hospice is offering counseling - I hope her DH ("Don") continues with it for his and their sake's. Her sister L already said writing the emails was theraputic for her. I guess it was like a journal. K's and Don's DD may do a journal - I don't know about their DS (boys! He's 13-14 too, hard age). Maybe your SIL can just walk her DD down the aisle, and skip the father-daughter dance? What about your DH? Is your your DN close enough to him to have a special dance with him (if she feels there has to be a special dance)?

((((HUGS))))) to both of you, and thanks to everyone else (I'll hug you too if you want LOL).

ajsmama - I am so sorry to hear of K's passing. Sincere condolences to your entire family.

ajsmama, so glad to hear about counseling. I really hope all of them get some. They all need it. Even if not right away they still should look into it. As for my neice I think that no matter what they do there will be that feeling amoung every guest that her dad is not there. There is just no way to get around it unfortunately. They can skip the dances easily, but that whole walking down the aisle thing is just so hard. My dh is close to her but not enough to do that job by any means. I kinda hope the boys do it together.

roselvr- I truly do not know if it is actually worse for the spouse to deal with this sort of situation. I so hope things go well for both of you. Hugs

Shannon - well, then any wedding, with or without dancing, will be hard for your niece, as holidays must be too.

Today was the wake, there will be no service, I didn't see an urn up front where all the flower arrangements were and receiving line was but no big portrait of K either. They did have an album and a big board of snapshots over to the side. I've been fine with this (except when I teared up in the store buying condolence cards), but I was too choked up to say anything to Don, just shook his hand, shook their DS's hand (he's not quite 14 and is already close to 6ft tall), their DD was standing there silently with tears running down her face and all I could do was hug her, hold her and rub her back and choke out an "It'll be OK." At least she has her aunt "L" - she was holding up pretty well, said they're close and will become closer after this.

I am so sorry for your loss and for her children and husband. You are all in my prayers.

I'm sorry... my heart goes out to the kids. We just lost someone, died unexpectedly at 82; her viewing was so sad. He grand kids were a mess. Watching them cry made me cry.

~Hugs

Hugs to you, Ajsmama. Please help your nephew and niece by remembering their mother when you're around them. When they do something that reminds you of their mom, tell them so -- "Oh, your mom would have laughed just like that!" or "You know, your mom loved dill pickles, too" or whatever. Keep her alive in their memories by telling them funny stories that you recall from over the years. Yes, it'll be tough to talk about her at first, but these memories that you'll create with them will be completely priceless.

I so agree with folkv- keep the memories alive. It is so hard to know what to say and when to say it. But I feel that it really important to always speak of a child's parent. I think it can truly help them make choices in life even if that parent is gone. I have always tried to mention how my BIL would have felt about a given situation with both the kids and even my sis. He hated ties and I suggested to my sis that when his kids get married the groom should not wear a tie because dad would have thought that was funny. Would tick my mom off, she never liked my BIL, and that would have made my BIL laugh even harder. Even though someone has passed I feel their spirit lives on in us and can be so useful.

ajsmama- I wondered how the service would go. Your post has brought me back 12.5 years to my having to watch my sis and her kids. It was something I would not even wish on my worst enemy. Please, stay in touch with these kids as much as you can. Family is so important even if it is just a card or call here and there. You seem to have such a caring heart, please share it with them. It will help you all. And one thing that is soooo important is that we allow ourselves to grieve and be sad. Everyone goes through the stages of grief but not in the same order. One may be quiet at first and yet the other is vocal. It may seem confusing but it is just our nature of processing grief differently. So don't be surprised by the kids behaviors, keep on your toes and don't avoid speaking about K no matter how difficult it may be. She is still their mom and always will be. Things, events etc will come up and it may feel uncomfortable. The best thing is to face things straight on.

And you are right about the wedding thing. I told my sis that there is just no way to "avoid" everything without ruining the day. I told her that every guest there will be feeling the same thing, they all knew her dad. Sometimes the best way to deal with the sorrow is to not do the "oh, so sad her dad isn't here to see this" but rather "her dad would be so proud of her, this day is exactly as he would have liked it to be for her". I think it really is about how you choose to deal with it and to not focus on the sad but rather the joy of the day. She will figure it out and it will be a wonderful day.

Again, wishing you all as much peace as possible.