So how do you know that the lobster was recently deceased? And what is your time limite? Five minutes? One hour? Four?

I'm sorry, but I've bought a lot of lobster and crab over the years, in Canada and in the US and I have never, never, ever seen a dearly departed lobster for sale.

Ann

"So how do you know that the lobster was recently deceased? And what is your time limite? Five minutes? One hour? Four? "

Without a necropsy report, or a death certificate, obviously you can never tell how recently the lobster went to crustacean heaven. When I buy them, I use the same technique as anyone would when buying any seafood; you do a post-mortem examination. Most of the time I can find ones which still have their long antennules moving.

Of course the truth is in the final taste test. It they taste great, I win. Taste like compost? I feed them to my tomato plants. Cheap enough?

"I'm sorry, but I've bought a lot of lobster and crab over the years, in Canada and in the US and I have never, never, ever seen a dearly departed lobster for sale. "

I agree with you. I have been to Vancouver countless times. I don�t remember seeing that either. However, in NY area, you do. As a matter of fact, in major supermarkets, in their seafood department, you may find boiled lobsters for sale. Do you think they use live lobsters from their tank for boiling?

When you buy a can of crab meat, how alive were the crabs before they cook them? And how long they stay out when they shuck them? Are you sure all the seafood you buy are alive prior to flash frozen?
The OP asks about options on how to enjoy lobsters on a stretched budget. This is just one of the many options already posted.

Have a happy Valentine.

Rob, I had a similar picture in my head, I could see a lobster with L pulling the tail and her BF pulling the claws and the lobster streeetttccchhhinggg across the table like one of those toy rubber lobsters, LOL.

I think I have frozen scallops on the menu for Valentine's Day, because there's no such thing as a live scallop in Michigan. As a matter of fact, I don't think I've ever even SEEN a live scallop anywhere. I'm sure mine are dead, because they are out of their shells and frozen solid, that's usually a sure way to tell....

Annie

LOL Annie! Not to mention the "scallop" you eat is a single muscle from the creature, not the whole creature!

I am still trying to decide what to make, but you are all inspiring me to make some sort of shellfish. My grocery has 4 oz tails for $4.99 and 6 oz for $6.99. They are warm water tails though, so I am not as excited. Scallops sound good though, maybe we'll join Annie and Elery and go that route.

Last night I googled stuff like "can I cook dead lobster" and read through many, many sites. There were none that I would quote as an authority (such as a government, scientific or university site) but the closest thing that I could find to saying it's ok was if cooked within moments of its death, and that once it has died it should be "headed" (which I took to mean deheaded) immediately to slow down degrading.

Come to think of it, any guide I've ever read has said to make sure the lobster is not just alive but feisty, because a lathargic lobster is likely close to death. A while back lobster was on sale and I wanted one relatively small one. The smallest they could fish out for me was 2.75 pounds. Then I noticed an adjoining tank that was empty except for one smaller one. I asked if I could have that one. He hit it with the rake, it barely moved, and I was told "No, it's almost dead." (This was at Fairway Market, for those of you in the NY Metro area familiar.)

But hey, like with anything, we all need to decide what risks we're willing to take. How many times do we see "is this still good" threads where someone's done something like leave chicken on the counter overnight. Almost invariably we see different opinions. Like others, dcarch has come back to post this morning. So he's alive and well and he enjoyed last night's dinner, and I figure that's what's important.

Lobster just went on sale just in time for Valentine's Day, for $7.99/lb, any size. Personally, given the option of saving $5.49/lb for a dead one, I wouldn't even consider it. But that's just me. (Well, me and probably most people in the developed western world!) There's no way I could enjoy it.

When I cook crabs, I go to the seafood place in the morning, bring back a load of live crabs, and put them in the bathtub with cold water. Crabs don't do well in chlorinated fresh water. Some die in a couple hours. When I cook them in the evening, they have been dead for a few hours. No difference between those and their stronger fellows who stuck it out to the bitter end.

My seafood place has recently deceased lobster and crab for a discount. I don't get them because I'm usually buying 12 and they only have 1 or 2 of the dearly departed kind.

Most seafood you buy is long dead and hasn't necessarily been frozen the whole time. At a seafood market, the fish on the top of the pile isn't all that cold. An old time fisherman will kill a trout, put it in his creel, fish the rest of the morning, and walk home with the first fish several hours dead. when I used to fish in Baja, we'd go out in a panga, fish all day and put the fish in a wet burlap sack, then return to the dock, clean the fish and put them in the cooler, those fish had been dead for several hours. There is no reason to only eat seafood within minutes of its demise. There is even less reason to insist on seafood that is lively. Flesh does not decompose when it is alive regardless of how unhappily alive, and decomposition does not move all that fast after death.

If it smells and looks good, eat it. If it is alive, kill it first. If it is dead, less bother with the killing.

FOAS, The grocery store that I usually buy live lobsters from is having the same special for Valentine's Day that they have for New Years - live lobsters for $9.98 each. The lobsters are suppose to be one pounders but they usually end up being closer to 1 1/4 pound.

I usually buy four when they have them on at this price and we have a nice feast. Moe came down with a stomach flu late afternoon on New Year's Eve so we never did have our lobster and Champagne that night. Since the lobsters were alive I went a head and cooked them. Two went to a neighbour and I picked the meat out of the other two and froze it in a brine. I also cooked the shells in a light chicken broth and froze that as well.

Wednesday night I pulled the lobster and broth out of the freezer and made a simple lobster bisque.

I'm debating whether to order four for Valentine's Day, but since I am having a root canal done that morning, I'm not sure whether I'll be interested in a lobster dinner.

Ann

Lpink, there's a restaurant here in town (S&P Oyster House) that has an appy I really like. Maybe, it would work for your V-Day dinner? Lobster, crab, & shrimp stuffed potato skins with a cheesy cream sauce topped with scallions. You can control how much sauce & the type of cheese. It doesn't take much seafood. With a beautiful salad...I don't see why these couldn't be an entree rather than appy?

/tricia

"When I cook crabs, I go to the seafood place in the morning, bring back a load of live crabs, and put them in the bathtub with cold water. Crabs don't do well in chlorinated fresh water."

So why do you do it? If they were lively when you bought them, leave them in a brown paper bag and put them in the fridge. They should still be very alive at dinner.

"Flesh does not decompose when it is alive regardless of how unhappily alive."

That is absolutely untrue! I spent several seasons working in a lobster pound and we always had the best lobsters in the area because we fed them every night. They got any fish that had been left in the display (on ice) since the morning. Any shellfish left without a food source for more than a day or two is absolutely going to begin to starve and the meat will deteriorate in quality. Now I will say this was a lobster pound that backed to the ocean and had fresh sea water pumped in instead of a self contained filtration system which allowed us to maintain them at peak quality and that option is not available to all fish markets, but your comment is absolutely false.

Alexa

You can still have the champagne Ann!

Unless you take painkillers. Don't do the two together.

Oh, Ann, I'm sorry about the root canal. Ya just never know with those things. Sometimes, they are virtually pain free & other times...well, other times, not so good. I've had both types. Good luck & I hope you're up to a lobster dinner with Moe. Your bisque looks good. It's still 10-15 degrees below normal here. We've been eating gallons of various soups trying to stay warm.

/tricia

I grew up on the water, and spend every summer on the water. Fresh seafood is part of my summer diet. The clams I eat are hours old, depending when low tide was that day and lobster is best cooked fresh out of the pot. That is in my ideal world.
Lobster still remains a special treat for my family. Given the cost, if I am going to make it, I am going to do it right. Which means fresh, live lobsters. Lobsters that, when picked up, instantly curl their tails under their body. Research suggests that lobsters release toxins very soon after they die and these toxins cause decay. Possibly I wouldn't taste the difference, but like I said, if I am going to make it, I am going to do it right.

I also see a big difference between frozen lobsters from reputable producers and those lobsters that die in the tank.

Lpink, if crepes are something the BF would enjoy here is a great recipe that also uses a combination of seafood. Really any combo you like.

Seafood Crepes

NOTE: I make a bechamel sauce to pour over the crepes while baking instead of using the same sauce that is in the crepes.

These crêpes can also be made with lobster and or crab if you like.

8 oz (250 g) cleaned shrimp
8 oz (250 g) scallops
3 tbsp (45 mL) unsalted butter
1 shallot, finely chopped
1 clove garlic, finely chopped
½ cup (125 mL) dry white wine
1 tbsp (15 ml) Pernod (I omit )
3 tbsp (45 mL) finely chopped chives
2 tbsp (25 mL) chopped tarragon
2 tsp (10 mL) finely grated lemon zest
Kosher salt and freshly ground pepper
8 cooked crepes (Basic Crepes - recipe follows)

1. Cut the shrimp in half, lengthwise, and the scallops in quarters or halves, depending on their size. Set aside.

2. In a large frying pan, melt 2 tbsp (25 mL) of the butter over medium heat. Add the shallot and cook until transparent. Add the garlic, shrimp and scallops and cook, stirring constantly, until the seafood is just cooked. Using a slotted spoon, transfer the seafood to a bowl.

3. Add the wine to the pan and bring to a boil, and deglaze by scraping up the browned bits from the pan. Boil until reduced by half, add the Pernod and pour over the shrimp and scallops in the bowl. Stir in the chives, tarragon, lemon zest and season with salt and pepper.

4. Preheat the oven to 400ºF (200ºC).

5. Butter a 9 x 13-inch (23 x 33-cm) baking dish with the remaining butter. Put 1 crêpe on the counter and place 2 to 3 tbsp (25 to 45 mL) of seafood mixture on it just below the centre. Roll up the crêpe and place it in the prepared baking dish. Repeat until all the crêpes and mixture are used up.

6. Pour the remaining liquid over the crêpes cover the baking dish with foil and bake for about 15 minutes or until hot.

Makes 8 crepes

Basic Crêpe Recipe
1 cup (250 mL) flour
Pinch salt
2 eggs
1 to 1¼ cups (250 to 300 mL) whole milk
2 tbsp (25 mL) unsalted butter, melted
Vegetable oil

1. Sift the flour and salt into a large bowl. Make a well in the centre of the flour and add the eggs. Whisk the eggs into the flour and then slowly add 1 cup (250 mL) milk. Whisk until smooth, then add the melted butter. Strain the mixture into a large glass measuring cup, cover and refrigerate for 1 hour.

2. Remove the mixture from the refrigerator and stir to check the consistency (it should resemble thin cream). Add the extra milk if necessary.

3. Wipe out the seasoned crêpe pan with an oiled paper towel then place it over medium-high heat. When you see a light haze over the pan it is hot enough to begin.

4. Pour in a small amount of mixture (about 3 tbsp/45 mL) into the pan (it should sizzle). Swirl and tilt the pan to spread the batter as thinly as possible. Pour any excess batter back into the measuring cup.

5. Use a spatula to trim the crêpe where the excess batter was poured off. Return the pan to the heat and cook until the top surface is dry and the edges begin to curl, 10 to 15 seconds. Using a spatula, flip the crêpe over and cook on the second side about 10 seconds.

6. Slide the cooked crêpe onto a clean towel. Continue with the remaining mixture.

Tips
1. Always make the batter in advance. It should rest for at least 30 minutes before cooking and can be kept overnight in the refrigerator. Bring the batter to room temperature before using.

2. Crêpes can be made ahead of time and refrigerated for 3 days, well wrapped and layered with wax paper or frozen for 2 months.

3. To reheat crêpes, brush a baking sheet with melted butter and layer the crepes on top. Cover with aluminum foil and reheat in a 400ºF (200ºC) oven for about 4 minutes.

4. To reheat filled crêpes, fill the crêpes when cold and place them in a baking dish and reheat in a 400ºF (200ºC) oven or until the filling is hot.

5. You can replace half the flour with whole wheat or buckwheat flour.

Makes 12 to 16, 7-inch (18-cm) crepe

''So why do you do it?'' [put live crabs in the bathtub]

No room in the refrigerator for a dozen crabs (small side by side, grrr) and the kids like playing with them in the bathtub, as I did when I was little. I also want the kids to understand where their food comes from. Some of my friends have kids who won't eat food if it bears any resemblance to an animal part - they want their chicken chopped and pressed into ''nuggets'' etc - and I don't want that problem in my house.

''Any shellfish left without a food source for more than a day or two is absolutely going to begin to starve and the meat will deteriorate in quality''

In theory, flesh can decompose while the animal is alive, if that part of the body is damaged, cut off from nerve impulse and blood flow. Example: a person with gangrene in, say, his foot - he is alive, but his foot is dead/dying. But that's not what we're talking about here, unless there are zombies lurking on the CF.

If we want to be super picky, cells are always dying and being replacing with new cells, the dead cells are removed by falling off (skin) or by blood flow. That is normal, the process is apoptosis, billions of our cells die every day. But that's not the kind of decomposition we're talking about either, I think.

So, I still believe that, in undamaged living animals, their flesh does not ''decompose'' as we think of the term, in a culinary context.

I can certainly see that the quality of flesh could deteriorate if the animal is severely malnourished.

But I wonder how going without food for a couple-few days will cause severe malnourishment in most animals - how do they survive in the wild? (There are exceptions, like some birds that have minimal fat stores).

As far as I know, some live lobster sellers do not feed the lobsters for a few days before sale to consumer, so that the lobster empties its fecal canal. This is done for other seafood too, as ''purging'' and I've also heard the term ''seasoning'' too. And, obviously, when live lobster are shipped, they are not being fed during the 24 hours or so in transit.

So the live lobster that most of us buy could well have been not been fed for a day to a few days. If we are thus eating degraded, severely malnourished, untasty lobster, so be it - unavoidable for the average retail consumer.

I just thought to look in my "Legal Sea Foods Cookbook" and see what they say.

Interestingly, according to them fish does best to age a bit. Rigor mortis is good - and prolonged by icing the fish immediately. Once they come out of rigor moris the muscles relax and the fish is ready to cook, but at this point the clock starts ticking.

Same source, re lobsters: "Buy live lobsters only. A lobster in its prime is blue-black in color and is active. Its tail should curve under its body when you pick it up, not hang flacidly. If the lobster seems sluggish, watch out, because it's probably near death. That's really a problem, because a dead lobster spoils quickly and its meat becomes almost like sawdust as it disintegrates in texture."

This particular passage doesn't mention safety concerns, just quality. But the word "spoils" isn't what I like to hear when it comes to dinner, unless its a purposeful controlled process.

(I'd say LSF is the closest thing I've yet to come across that I'd trust as an authority.)

This thread is totally reinforcing why I am mostly vegetarian. Meat is dead flesh, and if you want to think a lot about it and fuss about it, I'm afraid you will find all kinds of issues with it. If you want to make issues that is. For example, what effect does the type of water the lobster lived in have on the toxins in the flesh?? What effect does stress have on the taste of an animal? What about the yucky water in live lobster tanks that have less than stellar sanitation? Do you really want to know about all the corners cut from boat to store? Frankly most of this is a moot point to me.
I'm just not about to kill a lobster (or a crab or any other animal for that matter), (or take a recently dead one) and go thru the fuss of getting it ready to eat. That's just not how I want to spend my time, no matter how delicious the end results. As I have said before, I cook because I like to eat good food, not because I like messing with foodstuffs. But for those of you who do enjoy it, Vive la Difference!!
My preference would be for a lobster that was caught and killed and frozen on the boat. I guess I have no garuntee how a frozen lobster tail arrives at my grocery but it's definately worth a look see as to the prices of various options.
I'm so darn sick I doubt I'll have the energy to make something fancy, as much as I would like to. So I'll either go with rice or pasta with some type of seafood mix. Actually, Ruthanna's salmon salad looked so good to me I'm kind of thinking I might go with a cold mixed seafood salad with sexy avocados of course. That and some good bread and a lusty soup and wine, and then maybe chocolate biscotti for dessert with liqueured coffee. Or brownies with more wine, BF's a real wino, or wineaux as he prefers to be known!

"As far as I know, some live lobster sellers do not feed the lobsters for a few days before sale to consumer, so that the lobster empties its fecal canal."

Absolutely not true of any reputable lobster purveyor. The only shellfish that are kept to empty the digestive track are bivalves... and they are often fed corn meal so the bellies aren't as earthy tasting.

Alexa

On purging or seasoning lobster.

http://www.lobsterscience.ca/faq/3
from AVC Lobster Science Centre

Full Question:
When Chinese people prepare lobster they have a procedure called "releasing the urine" (�"�尿)--> chopstick is inserted into a little hole near the tail (anus?) about 10cm deep and then withdrawn, and usually murky liquids will gush out of it. They claim that lobster cooked without this procedure will often taste "funny" or brackish or stale. Have you ever heard of this and is this true?

Answer:
First of all, the orifice near the end of the tail is in fact the anus. Therefore, the murky liquid that comes out after the chopstick is removed is faeces, not urine. Urine would come out of the excretory pore, located at the base of the antennas. Nowadays, most live lobster shippers would first 'season' their lobsters before shipping. Seasoning is the term industry used to refer to a period of 2-3 days where lobsters are held before they are sold to consumers; this period should allow for the gastro-intestinal tract to empty itself. A less traumatic alternative to the chopstick method!

http://www.newenglandprovisions.com/knowyoursource.html
from NEW ENGLAND PROVISIONS WHOLESALE MAINE LOBSTER

11. Fresh right off the boats and right into the box for shipping. Well this may be but it is the wrong thing to do, unless you live right next to the harbor. The lobsters need to rest from 24 to 48 hours in a clean water environment with no food to eat. In this way they are able to purge their system of waste. You can tell when you open up the tail. If the canal is black (full of waste), the lobster was not purged. It's just not good sense to ship lobsters without purging them first. It is unsanitary and unappetizing. Besides, quality shippers know that it increases mortality to ship without purging.

Also references to lobster purging at commercial lobster processors and some restaurant suppliers:

http://www.oceana.co.za/divisions/lobster/fresh_lobster.php
Live Storage (in sea water) and purging

http://www.kyga.co.za/Lobster.htm
These live lobsters are held in tanks for 72 hours for purging

http://www.rockportseafood.com/pdf/Lazy_Lobster_Bakers.pdf
We season and purge our lobsters

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1995-06-11/news/9506020471_1_lobster-legal-sea-foods-onion-rings

On a tangent, here is a really interesting article on a method of holding live lobster for long periods without feeding - not just purging for a few days, but longer term storage in a sort of hibernation state.
http://www.workingwaterfront.com/articles/Holding-Lobsters-Keeping-the-animals-alive-depends-on-water-bacteria-and-careful-attention/11549/
In pounds, the lobsters are fed; in long term holding systems, they are not.

I'm almost feeling sorry for lobsters, until I remind myself that they are mentally no more than cockroaches.

In general, I think we are more obsessed with the dangers of unfresh food than we should be.

Consider the existence that our bodies are evolved for. Before civilization, tools, farming, refrigeration, etc. 20,000 years ago, we foraged and scavenged and hunted for food in whatever form we could find it. If we found some lobsters, we ate as many as we could and carried the rest back to our families, who ate them without asking how ''pardon me, how many hours has this lobster been dead'' or ''I say, have you any lobster that is less flaccid?'' Similarly when we killed a deer and carried its parts home, the next night no-one was asking ''don't we have any fresher deer?'' Whatever toxins a recently deceased lobster or a flaccid live lobster carries, we are evolved to handle it. True, we are not as equipped as, say, animals that habitually live on carrion (vultures, hyenas) so our noses and tongues tell us where to draw the ''danger line''. I don't know exactly where that line is, but I don't think it is at the lobster that didn't eat within the last 72 hours or the lobster that wasn't frisky and alive 10 minutes ago.

Now, there is also the ''tasty line'' and that is different for each person. It may be a fuzzy line. Can most of us tell, upon taking a bite, which lobster last ate yesterday and which last ate five days ago? Or the lobster who wiggled as he slid into the pot and the lobster who last wiggled six hours previous? Only an real double-blind test can determine.

Great posts John.

That's what this Forum is all about, exchanging information, in a professional manner.

I have learned a lot from your posts(and many others).

BTW, when I receive gift lobsters shipped, often there will be dead ones. They taste no different because of the ice packing.

dcarch

Well we all have our own standards and our cultural differences. All I know is I would never buy dead lobsters or crabs. If that was all that was available then there would be a menu change. Each to their own!!

Ann

"Each to their own!!"

I couldn't agree with you more Ann! There is no right or wrong. It's about preference, availability, budget, cultural differences and sometimes how your mother did it.

Lpink - I still think you should do mixed seafood in papillote. You could serve it over rice or pasta. If not for Valentines Day then another time.

Teresa

I never said there wasn't a "right or wrong".

Ann

Ann - I did not mean to imply that you did. I'm sorry that you took it that way. The point I was trying to make is that others have implied that and in my opinion there is no right or wrong. It boils down to some of the things in my previous post.

Teresa

Wonder if I could sell the clams and mussels that don't open up.

I once had horrible food poisoning from a lobster, should've known not to buy lobster from a steak place in Cheyenne. The tail exploded out of it's shell and looked very strange but I ate it anyway. Dumb but I was only 21 at the time. I'm very careful about my seafood, now.
When living in WA, I was told the crabs are boiled on the boats because the meat degrades rapidly after they die and boiling/freezing works better than freezing alone. That's why you never see uncooked dungeness, snow crab or king crab.

''Well we all have our own standards and our cultural differences''

That is true, and I did not mean to imply otherwise. In my culture, food is left out and unrefrigerated more than in mainstream American culture. (Hanging ducks in Chinatown, etc.). I'm used to it.

SWMBO was appalled at some of this when we began dating. She still can't believe my family will leave dishes on the table all night and nibble on it the next day.

A former fiancee had it worse. Every time we visited the folks, they fed her sea cucumber and chicken necks. I believe they were then still hoping for a Chinese DIL.

I've been so darn sick that Valentine's dinner is going to have to be something simple this time. I am going with a seafood salad. BF already bought salmon and lobster tails (both frozen) at Aldi's. I'll probably add scallops and maybe calamari to that. NOT an inexpensive dinner by any means. Inexpensive would be just lobster pasta or lobster risotto. I'll serve the salad on fancy lettuce with tomatoes, avocados, hard boiled eggs and green pepper, probably a lemon, caper and olive oil dressing. Fresh whole wheat baguette, which is another cost splurge for me. Potato leek soup on the side. For dessert I was going to make raspberry cheesecake brownies, BUT while he was at Aldi's, BF also bought a mix of four different kinds of chocolate cheesecakes. Not really my cup of tea but he has a cheesecake obsession. I'll probably just have a bite or two of his.

If I lived closer to fresh sources, I'd probably eat a lot of seafood since I love the taste of most of it. But since I don't, it just doesn't seem worth the time, expense or trouble to me. I save seafood mostly to order when I go out to a nice restaurant. We actually have a couple near me that specialize in seafood.

Teresa, I have a recipe for fish en papillote which has been on my "to try" list for quite a while. Maybe when I am feeling better BF and I will have a go at it. It sounds like something we would both love. And the crepes too. This for me is the wonderful thing about being in a relationship with someone who appreciates and eats a variety of foods. It is a joy to experiment with recipes that I would absolutely not attempt for just me. Crepes are another one, and risotto.

LOL on your story John. Jewish mamas are famous for serving gefilte fish to prospective gentile girlfriends. That's a thoroughly disgusting (IMHO only) mix of ground greyish fish that no one else wants, often carp, marninated in a sweet and sour sauce. I know my Bubbe served this to my mom. Mom thought she could manage it because she managed sushi when she lived in Japan for a year. Then my mom had to sit thru a family arguement as my aunt told off my grandmother for even thinking of serving such a thing. I dunno, she married dad anyway, I guess love is blind.

Hey lpink, I have a question for you as I'm curious. You've mentioned several times that you're a vegetarian, or "mostly" vegetarian but I see you referencing a lot of meat that you eat.

I'm trying to phrase this in a way that doesn't sound rude, as I'm genuinely curious and mean no disrespect, but how do you decide when to eat meat or not? Because it sounds like meat is somewhat of an ethical issue for you so I guess I'm a little confused when you specifically say vegetarian and you also eat meat.

Hope you're feeling better and have a great Valentine's day. :)

Lpink - I think the salad sounds perfect. I didn't have a specific dish in mind, but was going to suggest that you do something simple so you can really enjoy the lobster flavor/texture. If it's a rare treat, you want to savor every bite.

Sue

I'm just not that crazy about meat, especially red meat. Yes it's somewhat ethical but more ecological than worried about eating dead animals. And I definately want to eat mostly healthy. And frankly I'm not that fond of dead animals, but a little bit doesn't bother me. I'm a flexitarian with an open mind. I'm not into absolutes. Meat is expensive too. So there are a lot of reasons it isn't the focus of my meals. I eat meat maybe three or four times a week, sometimes much less. Depends on who I'm with and what I'm doing. On my own, mostly vegetarian. I was a strict veg. for about 20 years. I love the taste of seafood but it is mostly too expensive or else I know too much about it to want to eat it.

I suppose it is confusing when I say I'm vegetarian and I sometimes eat meat. But that's me! I don't think the world will come to an end if I eat meat, but I don't need that much of it, it's not a favorite food of mine. If I feel like eating meat I do. It just doesn't ring my bell the way a good stir fry with marinated tofu does. It might seem like I eat a lot of meat because of lot of my posts here are about cooking meat. Since I eat it so seldom, I know very little about preparing it.

I don't mind discussing my preferences a little bit, but I must say I am totally not into judging what others eat and their taste preferences. I feel it is a personal thing and not my place to judge others on their preferences, the same way I would feel about my preferences. That's why I don't usually comment on my own preferences. I'm not here for that discussion.

I was mostly interested in some recipes for dishes that combined lobster with other ingredients in a way that highlighted the lobster taste but stretched the serving size. Thanks to all that posted recipes, they sounded great. This may become a Valentine's Day tradition for me, some kind of swishy seafood dish!

I apologize if you felt I was judging you. That wasn't my intent at all and I regret even asking. Back to lurking.

Lpink,

Will you accept my apology? My posting an idea of possibly using non-breathing lobster to stretch your lobster budget almost completely derailed your thread.

However, it did lead to a beneficial discussion, though mostly off-topic. Many ideas were exchanged, and I have learned that gastronomic absolutism is not and cannot be universal.

I like your way of eating a lot, a flexitarian. I basically eat the same way. I eat lots of vegetables, tofu every other day. I do post a lot of meat dishes, because I am under the impression that that�s what the members here prefer.

I hope you will feel better soon, hopefully before V Day.

dcarch

Honestly folks, this is just the water cooler for me. IT'S ALL GOOD! I often digress in a discussion. In fact, digression is one of my hallmarks!! I just didn't want anyone to take my comments about my vegetarianism as a soapbox, hence my disclaimer. I don't think I have EVER been offended on this board. I hope I don't start taking threads too seriously. Somebody bop me on the head with a rubber chicken (or tofu cutlet) if I do!

Lpink, I can't imagine you offending anyone, you're such a sweetheart and everyone knows that. Of all the strong opinions posted on this forum, you'rs are regularly the most inoffensive.

chi, don't go away, you can join in. Lpink came to eat at my house and I made a nice bean dish, but she doesn't mind at all that I raise and eat my own grass fed beef. I think she'd love to have some chickens! She's very flexible and tolerant, my Grandmother would have loved her. Grandma's mantra was "tolerance to all others". She often told me that tolerance was the key to world peace, and she was probably right.

As for lobsters in Michigan, well, all I can say is that I told Elery that if he were ever inclined to buy lobster for dinner he should go for the frozen tails and leave the very expensive live ones in the tank. I just don't see a great difference in the live ones that have been shipped to Michigan and held in tanks for however long that takes, and frozen lobster.

Now, if I were anywhere near the Eastern coastal states, I'd definitely got for the fresh ones, but here in the Midwest I don't think it's all that much different. And it completely negates the live/dead lobster discussion for me, it's all dead. Plus, it allows me to avoid killing the creatures, which I don't care to do if I can avoid it.

Annie

I will say that, at $9/lb (grotty little Asian seafood vendor), $12/lb (big Asian mega-grocery), $14/lb (high-end Japanese foodie nirvana place), so $45 to $60 per each 5-lb lobster - makes the discussion of very alive vs recently-alive kind of academic for me, except on special occasions.

The johnliu money tree is just not blooming quite that fragrantly at this exact moment . . .

The last time I bought live lobster was for SWMBO's birthday, that was like a $60 pot of lobster bisque. Yum and ouch simultaneously.

On my way back from work, I passed by a couple of supermarkets, Shoprite and Stop & Shop.

In their seafood department, they both had pre-boiled lobsters.

I asked the fellow there, "If you offer free steaming of lobsters to customers, why do you also pre-boil them?"

"Oh, those lobsters were not alive when we boil them. That's why they are cheaper."

"How can I tell if they are fresh?"

"They don't taste any different then the live ones. They are very good buys because the meat shrinks after steaming. You are actually getting more lobster for the money. Try them. If you don't like them, bring them back, I will refund your money plus give you a free lobster."

Just to be clear, I don't make it a habit to buy only dead lobsters and crabs.

dcarch

Also saw this :-). Had to take a picture.

{{gwi:1495418}}

{{gwi:1495419}}

Is that $2.49/lb for the pre-boiled lobster? Now that's more like it!

I asked the Asian seafood market guy if they feed the live lobsters in their tanks. No.

OK, I like the steak in the heart shaped pan. (grin) Now THAT'S a valentine!

Annie

I spoke to the woman that runs the seafood department in the local grocery store that I buy my live lobsters from.

If a lobster dies it is tossed in the garbage. They do not sell recently deceased lobsters nor do they steam them and sell them cooked. It just doesn't happen.

She said that she was aware of the fact that some people will cook a lobster if it has just died, but that wasn't the practice of her's or the store's.

They also sell live dungeness crab and she said the same thing. Crab are tossed out if they die. You never want to cook a dead crab.

So hey if you want to cook and eat dead shellfish go for it. You might want to keep it in the family though. That old saying what you don't know won't hurt you might be true, but I'd be really upset if I found out someone purchased dead lobster or crab and served it to me.

Ann

My guess would be that (many stores) after they've had the lobster and crabs "x" number of days, the creatures start to get sluggish and they cook them while they are still alive. So technically they are not cooking dead lobsters. That's what they did at Byerly's when I worked there.

-----------------------------------------------
From: Lobsterclambake.com (a division of Constitution Seafood)

Top 5 Lobster Myths

Ask anyone who has eaten a lobster and they can probably remember a time where they were told a tale about the red-shelled, big-clawed animal, which they were not quite sure they believed. Although most people ignore what they hear because the delectable sweet taste of a fresh Maine lobster is hard to turn down, there are others who may still be leery about eating lobster due to the myths they have been told. For all those still in question, I have set the record straight and have presented the facts below for the top 5 lobster myths. Enjoy!

1. Weak/dead lobsters are not good to eat.
Many people think that dead lobsters are not good to eat. This is simply not true. As long as the lobsters have been kept in a cool place, they can be cooked after death with the same flavor and texture as live lobsters. If you ordered live lobsters online but they arrive dead at your door, as long as the carton is in good condition, then the live lobsters were kept at the proper temperature and they are perfectly fine to eat.
-----------------------------------------

dcarch

All that proves is that you found a retailer who doesn't want to deal with the issue of their lobsters arriving dead. The following quotes from another retailer (Chrissy D. Lobster Company) who will deal with it don't prove anything either, but I can tell you which of the two I'd be more comfortable doing business with!

Q: One of my lobsters arrived dead. What do I do?

A: We take great care in selecting, packing, and shipping your lobsters to ensure they arrive alive. While it is rare for a lobster to not make the trip, it can happen. If you discover you have a lobster that has expired in transit, please contact us immediately. See our policy page for instructions.

Q: One of my lobsters arrived dead. Can I still eat it?

A: No! Lobsters degrade quickly on death. In general you should never cook lobster that was dead going into the pot unless you know exactly when it died and what it died of. Some chefs will refuse to prepare a lobster that's been dead for more than 15 minutes, that's how fast the meat can start to degrade, effecting taste and texture! See our policy page on what to do if you have a lobster that arrived dead.

If a lobster is not moving and appears to be dead, do not cook or eat it.

Dcarch:
You did it again. Great Photo's.
Now, I'll have to find me some dead Lobsters.

I cooked African Lobster tails in the oven, highheat.
Split the shells and baked them.
When cooked, we dipped the pieces in Drawn Butter.
**************************************************

If I buy Steamed Crabs, I check to see if the legs are floppy not stiff. ( rigormortise )

They were dead when Steamed ???

Maybe I'm just blowing steam !!!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Pinky:
I make Baked Crab Cakes with pieces of cooked Shrimp added,
fifty - fifty.
LOU

Johnliu:
I just came back and reread some of the Posts.
Your thread on the Chinese using Chopsticks sounds right.

I also heard many years ago, that you should remove the stomach, before freezing , or
Gastric enzimes will be released, causing the meat to deteriorate quickly.

Teresa_mn:
I like your first Post. Often, do things like that but use
oven bags and
throw in a few tablespoons of Tomatoe Sauce and Garlic.

Pinky:
Did you pick up on that one.
**********************************
Here is the Baked Shrimp Crabcake Recipe.
LOU

Lou�s - Crab and Shrimp cakes

Ingredients
One third cup each of chopped Onions, Peppers and Celery, micro waved 2 minutes.
One half cup of bread crumbs
2 teasp. Parsley Flakes
1 teasp. Garlic Powder
2 teasp. Parmesan Cheese
One half teasp. Old Bay Seasoning

Mix the first 6 items , add
3 teasp. Mayo
Three quarters teasp. Mustard
Three quarters cup, cooked Shrimp, chopped medium
2 - 6 oz. cans of White Crab Meat or lump Crabmeat
1 large egg , beaten

Made 5 cakes ( paddies )
Placed on Oiled aluminum foil in a cookie tin.
Baked at 350 deg. For 30 minutes,
basted with butter and baked 10 minutes more, or
until Golden color.

These were Baked a little too long.

They were good with Creamy Italian Dressing

Interesting discussion. I didn't know there were different views on cooking dead seafood.
Or about feeding lobsters. There I will take Ann's approach: ask my trusted fishmonger. (I love getting to use that word!)
I don't buy fish in my farmers' market (wouldn't even consider the supermarket here) and I go out of my way to a store I trust. Several years back, a young woman who was about 30 opened a stand at a market, in competition with the large company that dominates fish sales in this whole county. I'd go to that market just for her fish. Then she was able to expand into her own store. She sells a high-priced product in a recession and she is doing very well. I think they feed the lobsters fish scraps. I will ask her. She knows a lot and she cares about quality. With seafood, a trusted source is everything.

I do want to say something in response to the idea that "our ancestors couldn't have been picky." This is true, but nature tolerates a lot of loss. My great-great-great grandmother died at age 36 after eating clams. That was 200 years ago, when people had to be tough. She even lived fairly close to the sea, in New Jersey.

I'm with you on grocery store seafood. We paid over $20 for 1.5 pounds of shrimp at the grocery store last night, and they were fishy and nasty.

I was searching for another topic and this thread was one of the results. The title of this thread reminded me of what I like to do to stretch lobster. This is one of my wife's favorite meals that I started making for her when we were still dating. Little did she know how cheap a date she really was.

I make a three course meal with one large (2.5-3 lbs) or two small lobsters (chicken-1.5 lbs). Four courses if you include dessert. I start with a Lobster Bisque followed by Lobster Ravioli. For the main course, I change it up, but it's usually Lobster Thermidor. One of these days, I might try to make Lobster Ice Cream for dessert.

The bisque is made with the boiling liquid and shells. The ravioli is made with the bits of leg and body meat mixed with marscapone cheese. The main course is made with the claw and tail meat.

One time, my wife wanted to help me in the kitchen. So we parboiled the lobster and separated the meat. I went to use the bathroom and came back to find that she had thrown away all the shells and dumped the broth down the drain. Needless to say, we were bisque-less that time. She knows better now.

I got two lobster tails this weekend at $3 each. I was so going to make Lindac's Crab Newberg. Finally make it! Had the recipe out, went into the kitchen, and came back out after having steamed and eaten the lobster with butter right at the sink. Didn't even put it on a plate. I could not wait! When I sat down, I saw the recipe on the table and realized, that my very good intentions never came to fruition. I just could NOT wait. Oh well. I need to figure out "how to make lobster last to the table".

As I live in coastal Maine, I have read this thread with fascination, and joy to think that I live here and can get lobsters anytime, right off the boat (and scallops, clams, shrimp...).

That said, lots of the recipes posted sound great! I have made lobster risotto before and find it swoon-inducing. I also love a good seafood chowder.