It would also be helpful to have any info on fabric types...good, bad, in the middle...etc.

thanks

Among other things, I professionally spot clean upholstery. In my opinion, the things that are least durable, stain most easily, and are difficult to clean without causing damage:

* 100% cotton (denim), especially in dark colors. They fade and are not water cleanable without dye running.

* Haitian cotton (semi-processed and contains bits of woody fibers). Looks like "vanilla bean ice cream." Prone to browning and yellowing when wet.

* Chenille, particularly rayon. Will not tolerate any contact with water. When it does, it can be irreversibly damaged by becoming "directional." When you walk around the piece, it can appear darker, lighter, or both (from different directions). Also prone to matting in seat cushions.

* Silk. Normally all you can do with this is vacuum (X coded). Of course vacuuming will not get out dirty fingerprints, gravy, or most any other stain.

Look for a synthetic (nylon, olefin, polyester, etc.) with a W or WS cleaning code (W=water; WS=water or solvent(dry-) cleaning)

You would be surprised at the people who have no idea what fibers they have in their fabrics. I sometimes ask so I can know what cleaners I can safely use. This information is rarely (like one in fifty) on the Do Not Remove label. Maybe one in ten people have their original receipt with the fiber content written down by the sales person. Give them a *

The other mean trick the mills play on us is to just label most things "S" (dry-clean only). Other than the above list, most of these are water cleanable if done carefully.

Hello,
this is a really valuable thread, and I'd ask the commentators to chime in specifically on the issue of upholstered seating. One of you said, above, "Their are some manufacturers that are using a well designed, quality sinuous wire seating that gives a better ride and just as supportive as the 8-way hand tied coil springs. Their are many other types of seating manufacturers are using and I can talk more about the good and bad on these also. When time allows."

We're in the market for a loveseat. We aren't finding any 8-way hand-tied options at all, but we've found some sinuous-spring (made by Simmons, the mattress manufacturer, of all things) and Pirelli webbing. I'd love to hear commentary about what to look for, aside from the kiln-dried hardwood frame, that would indicate better quality and longevity.

Also, I've seen other posters on this forum talk about the importance of down-filled cushions, where the down is then wrapped with polyfill. Not seeing much of those either, though the manufacturers tout their use of multiple-density foam. Your opinion?

Thanks for a very informative discussion, everyone.

this link was provided by way of the decorating forum. So happy that it was. I, too, would like to see this discussion continued.

I am far from young and have tried my hand at refinishing and upholstering (sp) through the years, and sure wish I knew just a wee portion of all this years ago.

Have forwarded on to my three daughters so they will have better knowledge.

Thank you all for contributing and especially Mr. Dcollie for starting this thread.

Talk about a great thread - bumping up.

bumping up to first page

We are in the market for a new sofa. One of the options we would like to explore are the sleeper sofas. The old fashion ones were less than comfortable. If one wanted to find a good quality sleeper sofa (if one exists) what should they look for in the construction?

Thanks,
Katy

Just came upon this post and only had time to read half of it at this sitting. Am giving it a bump, and want to thank everyone for contributing. I've never seen such good information presented in a way the average consumer can understand.

Been a while since I contributed to this thread, and since there is a large interest in leather furniture here, lets try working that subject. It can take a long time to address all the aspects of leather, so I may not cover what I know of it all in one post, but lets get started.

First off, all leather is not the same. There is a wide variety of product quality, and what you need to know is good leathers are not cheap. You are going to pay for good hides, regardless of the upholstery maker. In the quest to meet consumer demands for aggressive price points, the leather industry has come up with novel ways to make lower quality hides feel like high-quality pieces, so lets explore that.

Hides come from all around the world, as cows are raised in every continent. The very best hides come from Europe, where they do not use barbed wire on their fences, and there are few bugs to bite the cattle. This results in a less-flawed hide. Couple that with the Euro to US Dollar rate of exchange and its easy to understand why these are the most expensive. The least expensive hides come from the Pacific Rum (China, etc) and can offer some incredible price values, but be aware that many countries tanning hides in the Pacific Rim do not adhere to international tanning standards and as such use tanning agents that might contain carcinogenic agents can be absorbed into your blood stream through your sweat glands. In the middle ground are South American and North American hides.

When a hide is processed, its split three times. The upper layer is FULL TOP GRAIN, and the best. This will typically become Aniline-dyed leather. The next layer down is TOP GRAIN, and this will be more processed and become Finished leather (which can also be called Semi-Aniline, or Pigmented). The lower section is called "The Split" and is not used for upholstery, rather sold off to shoe and belt makers or even some automotive leather houses.

Now that we have the raw hides, they must be tanned and finished.

Aniline-dyed is reserved for the best hides (appx 5% of worldwide production) as it leaves the product in its most natural, supple state. It is vat-dyed, and then lightly treated with teflon topcoating. It is very supple, shows the natural markings and fat wrinkles, feels and smells great, and is the most expensive. The downside of Anilines is they fade rapidly in direct sunlight, and don't have as much stain resistance as a finished leather. They may also show scratches and vary considerably from hide to hide in color and texture. Think of this class of leather as a fine Tenderloin steak. Lightly season it and its ready to go.

Finished leathers (the whole category to include semi-aniline, and pigmented) require more tanning operations to become soft and supple, and are worked to the point that the grain of the leather is no longer there, and they cannot be aniline-dyed with any degree of success. This would be like a Cubed steak, its too tough to eat without going through the tenderizing machines. Once that's done, the grain has to be stamped, or embossed, back into the piece, and color sprayed on the hide. In effect, the leather is painted. Pros are a very uniform color, lots of protective top-coating, superior sunlight resistance, and wipe n' go for most stains and spills.

There's another category of so-called leather (typically found on Chinese low-end, Costco, Sams Club, etc) called Bicast. In most countries cannot be labeled as leather, however in the USA it is not illegal to call this 'leather'.
What Bi-Cast is made of is leather by-products (typically the scraps from companies like Hancock and Moore that are collected and sold to China by the ton) that are chemically melted and reformed onto a polyurethane sheet. Then they are stamped with an embossing pattern (grain) and painted. All the natural bonds of leather are broken in the meltdown process so you do NOT get durability of real leather over fabric in Bicast products. It will not hold up like real leather in any way. Bicasts are the hot dogs of the leather industry - full of the leftover parts.

Leather outlasts fabric 4 to 1. So you pay more for leather on the front end, but get a much longer service life on it. However, leather is NOT a no-maintenance item, and few retailers tell the customers that. You should keep it out of the direct sunlight (# 1 killer of fine leather is sun-fade), and you must clean it periodically. Typically 2x a year will suffice. The natural oils from your hands and hair will attack the tanning process and cause the leather to crack if never cleaned. Once cracking starts, there is nothing you can do to fix the hide. Follow the makers directions on cleaning. Many will say simply soap and water, others recommend Leathermaster cleaning products. Do not use saddle soap. I clean my leather furniture in my own home when Daylight savings time comes in. That's 2x a year, and always on a Sunday. Makes it easy to remember.

Protected vs. Unprotected. Theres a lot of confusion on this, but in a nutshell the Protected leather is getting back to the painted hides. Lots of topcoating on it, so you wipe it down like you would a car finish. Easy, quick, and impervious to most stains.

Unprotected leather is not really totally unprotected. All hides have a teflon finish that may or may not stand up to a particular stain. Most Unprotected hides can repel sodas, water, milk, newsprint and similar, but not oil-based stains such as Mineral Baby Oil, etc. The key to any spill on Unprotected leather is remove it immediately. Even if you get a bad one, over time it will dissipate somewhat, but never go away completely. You can also take the palm of your hand and rub quickly to generate heat on many unprotected hides, this reflows the wax in the topcoats and can cover some stains and also scratches.

Good leather furniture costs. There is just no way around it, so the old adage of "you get what you pay for" is very much true in leather. If a maker wants to cut costs, he either has to do it in the frame and components, quality of the hide, or get cheap labor. That presents its own set of issues, as if the frame is made cheaply you get structural failure of frame (cracking, springs sagging, cushions failing). If you go cheap on the hide, it will look and feel like cardboard. Cheap labor to make means poor craftsmanship and lumpy upholstery.

I see three classes of leather furniture in the market. The low-end, which is built strictly to the price point using whatever shortcuts can be taken to make the piece look good when new (and it won't stay good-looking for long)and this includes all the Big Box Store product, the mid-grade Utility-class where they are giving you much better components and service life, at the expense of questionable tailoring and hide selections, and then the High-end products where the piece goes beyond utility and becomes the Art of Upholstery. Best of everything goes into this last category and it will look almost as good in ten years as the day you brought it home given reasonable care and cleaning.

Warranties. Don't buy them. There is nothing a local retailer can apply out of a bottle that will enhance what is already on the hide's topcoat. I think these warranties are a sham and they cannot add anything on the leather to protect it further. Rather its a game of statistics, assuming a 6% to 8% claim rate among all policies sold. I get calls all the time from these warranty companies asking me to help them out with a consumer claim by allowing a credit towards a new purchase on a pro-rated basis. Rather than buying a warranty, clean your hide 2x a year and you'll be way ahead of the game.

Duane Collie

Thank you so much, Duane. That is really wonderful information.

This information is facinating to me, thank you so much Duane and all that contributed.

Very helpful addition here with the leather topic. I just picked up my first two items of leather furniture this past weekend with a Hancock & Moore Addison recliner and a Ralph Lauren (Henredon) Writer's Chair.

The H&M chair is in a finished leather, so I think I understand the maintenance required with it. The Ralph Lauren, however, is in an amazingly soft suade-feel leather that must be the aniline you mentioned above. After having had it back from Henredon outlet in Hickory, NC and sitting in it for a few days, I'm loving how soft and comfortable it is for a deep chair that appears somewhat formal at first blush. I'm also trying to think of how to maintain it and assumed this would require some kind of sealing, scotchguarding, or the like - but after reading your post above it would appear that this is not the case afterall.

Thanks for the information and feel free to correct me if I've made any misstatements.

nctal,

If its a Nubuck suede, you have to be a little more careful with it than most leathers. There's probably a little teflon coating on top (does water bead up at all? try a drop or two), but not much else.

You can use the Nubuck Suede kits from Uniter's with some reasonable success. As always, test first in an inconspicuous spot. Order on-line from the link below.

Duane Collie

Here is a link that might be useful: Nubuck Cleaning Kit

Duane,

Thanks for the tutorial. Still learning.

Beeman43

So am I, Beeman! I think I drive the sales reps and customer service reps nutty with my daily phone calls asking them questions on things. I know I'm getting up-to-speed when they have to make more calls to field my tough questions.

I have a real passion for fine furniture, and I have to admit almost none for utility grade product, or where they take shortcuts in production. That interests me not, and I have no qualms at all about picking up the phone and calling a supplier to tell them they're sending out junk in a box.

I enjoy the Art of Furniture making, be it the nuances of leather furniture or seeing the pride in workmanship of a cabinetmaker hand-scraping a piece of tiger maple. I still drive my Freightliner myself and go to the shops, know the people there and THEY enjoy someone taking an interest in their craft. There is still plenty of pride in workmanship in the USA, but you have to get into the higher quality lines to experience the end result.

I have discovered as well, in two decades of this business, that most customers WANT good quality. They start out buying on price, but if they can get an education on what makes a premium piece worth the extra cost, they will be willing to spend more once they can understand what there money is buying. Therefore, the job of better stores is to give their customer knowledge so they can make an informed decision with their hard-earned dollar.

So here on Furn 101 Q&A, this is an attempt to share some of that knowledge from myself and other informed people in the trade. Knowledge is Empowerment. When you as a customer know what to look for ahead of time when you walk into any store, you won't be suckered by a bright red sale tag on an item that has no quality to it. An informed shopper is a smart buyer.

Remember that everything looks good when its brand new. Its how it holds up over time that separates the good from the bad. Keep learning...keep asking questions. When you do, you'll know how to best spend your dollars when you buy.

Duane Collie

Wow. Thanks so much for this valuable information. I am just sorry that I am not patient as I want a decent couch that won't break the bank and I want it soon . . . but I definitely know more now than I did 20 minutes ago. I think I have some catalogs with exploded views to find!

Thanks, thanks, thanks.

Thank you Duane and all for the information!

Duane, a long ways back you said you would tackle cushions next, but I don't see where you did.
I just ordered a Miles Talbot sofa and was told that the cushions have springs in them covered with foam then dacron over all. I would like to know more about this method and other cushion methods and how they compare.

ALSO the eight way tied springs, what about the number of springs per piece, closeness of springs to each other and the guage of the springs? how do those things affect quality and what should we be looking for in this department?
It is too late now for the sofa as it is ordered but I would still like to know for refference.
Thanks so much.

I wouldn't mind seeing more information as well. Knowledge is power.

Great info. Was wondering if any of you are familiar with Ekornes furniture? It is the most comfortable furniture ever!! Very high quality, and lasts forever. Has anybody ever owned or seen them before?

Hogdenn

I've owned 2 of the Ekornes chairs/ottomans for 13 years. Actually one chair for only 9 years after which the frame cracked beyond repair. The other chair had some problems with the bolt that supports the tilt mechanism/arm on one side. The bolt broke and had to be drilled out, and replaced. Both chairs had problems with the swivel base (the metal base detached from the wooden frame) and was fixed by the dealer. Overall these are very comfortable but not as rugged as you may want (especially if you are a large person, say 200+lbs). Also the chairs are pricey with my price approx. $1400 each set back in 1995. I think you can do much better with upscale furniture from
a quality USA manufacturer such as Hancock & Moore or Leathercraft.

Of course this is only a personel opinion based on my single experience.

Cuse69

Cushions! O.K., I'm doing this from home without benefit of my reference catalogs for details, so its going to be general in nature rather than specific.

First of all, lets dispel the myth of 'foam cushions', in decent furniture you do not get a piece of inexpensive block foam that is cut, covered in muslin and shoved in the casement. There is actually quite a bit of engineering and design work that goes into a good cushion.

The industry standard is Dupont Qualex, a synthetic high density foam that is ofter wrapped in a down ticking (a ticking is a pocketed outer cover with room inside to stuff a cushioning material of some sort). There are superb cushions and not easy to source as a replacement, so think twice before you toss them during a reupholster job. These cushions are comfortable, have excellent shape retention and are particularly well-suited for leather as they keep their form well.

Down cushions are typically an upgrade that you pay more for as an option. There are various levels of down and feathers used in cushions and one maker might have three option levels depending on that mix. Down is more plush, but moves around more and requires some 'fluffing' to return to its shape. It can shift in seat backs sometimes (but not always) leaving you with an unsightly back cushion as it ages - depending on style and form.

Down is further divided into two types: Marshall Unit and then loose down (the latter being what exactly what it sounds like). A Marshall unit is a spring core, where there are hundreds of small springs in sleeves, each surrounded by a 'box'. The down goes in the 'box" as well as a wrapped ticking over the whole thing. Unlike loose down, a Marshall unit will spring back (hence the name 'spring down') to about 80% of its shape after being sat upon, so the piece needs less fluffing.

I do not personally care for down in my leather furniture, nor do most people in the trade -however its great for fabric units. Down allows the leather to flex much more than a standard Qualex cushion which means as the piece ages it picks up hundreds of hairline cracks fro the flexing.

Cushions shot? Even the best cushions wear out with use. Most better companies offer a lifetime guarantee on their cushions, so keep your model number/brand of the piece somewhere where you can find it ten years down the road and its likely you can get free inserts from the maker. Without the model/style number however - its nearly impossible to do.

Deck springs. Lots of different ways to do these, from Flexsteels 'torsion spring leaf' to drop-in grids used by companies like Bradington-Young to individually hand-set as Hancock and Moore uses.

The vast majority of companies use pre-built springs that come in a grid, and they have the grid sized for their frame, staple them in and then tie them together (8-way hand ties). Nothing wrong with this, its a good system. However the best companies like H&M place multi-density springs in the deck and set them in individually. What that means is there are higher (stiffer) sprinds in the back and outboard near the arms than in the center of the piece. The end result is that when you sit upon one of these , you don't 'fall into the crack' near the arm of the back. Try one and see when comparison shopping brands.

While on the subject of springs and hand-tying, most factories cheat a little on the famous 8-way hand tied they like to brag about. Rather than tying the strings at every juncture into a knot, they loop them around th wire and go to the next one. That means if a string breaks, the spring comes up because the loops unravel. If the string is knotted at each point, and it breaks, the other seven will still hold the spring. I know for sure Hancock and Moore hand-knots each one, but not sure who else might as most do the looping technique.

Duane Collie

Thanks Duane for the cushion answer, but you did not mention the seat cushion that is high density foam but has an insert of springs in it. That is the kind I am getting and want to know if it is good, bad or indifferent. It is the Miles Talbot Millenium cushion.
So I guess in that case you have the springs in the deck and then springs in the cushion as well.
I tried sitting on Miles Talbot they had at the store that were both Pre-Millenium all foam and the Millenium. while both were very soft and comfortable I could tell there was more support in the Millenium, I noticed a bit of side to side rocking feeling sitting on the foam only one.
Can you tell us if this is a good design and good idea?
Thanks

Having springs imbedded in high density foam doesn't make much sense, that's probably not the case I would think as its a redundant system to do that. I've never come across it in any case.

Springs are imbedded in down because feathers and down don't have a natural tendency to return to their shape, whereas high density foam does.

Side-to-side rocking is the deck spring base, not the cushions, and indicative of a uniform spring base as would be used in a drop-in grid. That's not something I would want personally if purchasing in upper tier price ranges.

Duane Collie

Hm, only felt it on the all foam cushion and both were on the same deck base.
I linked to the page on the Miles Talbot site [if my link works] that shows the cushions being made, note the springs in the cushion. and they don't use down in their regular cushions or the Millenium.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to cushion construction I am talking about

OK, now that I can see the construction that is a standard spring/foam and or spring/down cushion depending on what they use in the ticking to wrap it with. Sorry for the confusion, I think I misread the question or imagined it differently. That cushion should be fine.

Duane Collie

ok thanks that makes me feel better.

Thanks again for more information and discussion. Keep it coming! I have a suggestion, Duane you have given a lot on information on good things to look for in furniture and in those messages we can gleam things to watch out for. I was wondering though maybe a lesson that covers what to watch out for that even the most novice of consumers could use when furniture shopping. So many companies/stores use marketing mumbo-jumbo that you could leave a place thinking furniture made of cardboard will last longer than any hardwood variant.

Thanks Briant73,

I'm not sure how I could tell you how to sort the wheat from the chafe in a store other they trying to educate yourself before you go in, by reading forums like this.

As a store owner myself, I have to sell you to make my living, thats my job! And its everyones job in every sales position, so they're going to tell you what they know - and some may even go beyond that and outright mislead you in order to get you to buy. Unfortunately, there are two things going against you as the consumer. 1) Is lack of knowledge on the part of YOU, and 2) the other is lack of knowledge on the part of the STORE PERSONNEL. Many store salespeople simply don't know - and don't try to learn about their product other than the particulars given to them in a sales manual from the manufacturer.

I think that as a customer, you are better off working with smaller stores where you can build a relationship with the people there. If you have a good experience, go back to them again. Find a store where you are comfortable with the people working there. When you 'click', stay with them. There are not many out there who will mistreat or try to put something over on a regular customer - for you are very valuable to them. As a result, they'll do the work for you, and you should be able to trust them and not steer you wrong.

Where folks make the wrong turn (again, this is just my opinion) is when they go out to shop with PRICE as their main selection criteria. That's exactly a recipe for disaster. You go into the knowledgeable store and find the perfect piece for $ 2,500. Then you go into the big box store and find a different brand thats's "On SALE" for $ 1,700 and they look almost alike. You buy the $ 1,700 sofa and discover in three years its sacked out and falling apart. You go back to find your salesperson and they've left a long time ago.... Had you bought the $ 2,500 sofa, it would not have fallen apart and if you did have an issue on it, you most likely can call the same people you bought it from and they remember you - and will see what they can do to help. Don't assume smaller stores are automatically more expensive, and don't be misled by bright orange sale tags. Shop with your head, not by the gimmicks.

As a store owner, I get bombarded with salesmen on a daily basis always trying to sell me something cheaper thats 'just as good' as the thing I'm already selling, but because its cheaper I can make more money on it, and also sell it for a lesser price. Well, heres the thing - there are no new technologies in the furniture market to make something faster/cheaper. This is an industry that is labor intensive, and consumes a lot of raw materials. So in order to make something cheaper you have to do one of two things:

1) Cut the labor cost. You hire less trained workers, or less expensive workers.

2) Cut the material cost. Customers can't see under the fabric, can we get by with doing A instead of B, because A costs less, and though B is better who will care in five years?

That's it! Thats all you can do as a maker.

I've been in the same location since 1985. I have customers whose parents bought from me and know their kids buy from me as well. For that reason, I'm a real stickler when it comes to quality and I spend a lot of time learning about what makes a piece good and proper. Let someone else sell the junk, I want to keep my customers (and there are a lot of stores like mine, with the same thoughts). So we grill the suppliers and really hold their feet to the fire - and if we see a substandard piece come in we're on the phone to complain. That's the kind of store you really want to buy from. Let a trusted store do the work for you and you'll never get a bad piece.

Duane Collie

Thanks for the answer so what do you plan to tackle next in Furniture 101?
As to your advice, you're pretty much right, work with a good store and even if you do encounter a bad piece for whatever reason, the store will make it right.

Lets's tackle selecting a leather hide. I've already covered many of the technical aspects of this earlier (read up) and really would like to address this at a customer level because I see a consistent pattern when folks shop hides. It can be confusing so let me see if I may simplify and help out in that regards.

Color: OK, this is the big buga-boo with hides. I have customers just pour over hide colors in the store, moving them from one location to the next to see what effects the various lighting has on the shade. Folks, its not going to matter and I'll tell you why. You might get a 1 to 2 percent variance in shade walking them around the store to natural lighting vs. halogen, but the actual hide is going to vary from that swatch you are holding 10 to 20 %! So you're just making yourself crazy holding that 4" x 6" piece of leather 10" away from you. The best way to look at leather colors is to take the swatch, place it on a chair and back up about eight feet. Look at color in general, not specifically. Be prepared for your actual piece to be lighter or darker then the sample.

Grain Patterns: Once again, these vary from sample to sample. When the makers cut samples to send to the dealers, they use the whole hide. Some sections will be smooth, some wrinkled (just like human skin!). Do not assume what you see on the hide will be exactly what you get - in most cases the finished product will look better, not worse. Most leathers will be done on a color series (Brown, black, blue, green, etc), so you want to look at all the hides on the sample rack and average the textures in your mind.

* Tactile. Take the swatches you like, ball them up in your hand and close your eyes. What feels plush and luxurious? Thats the one you want, the one with the best 'hand'.

* Cuttings for Approval. O.K., this is something everyone likes to do for the most part (because of the variances above) but generally I do not recommend it unless you have an existing piece in that same hide and need to match if (i.e., you have the chair, and want to buy an ottoman now). The reason I don't recommend it is twofold. 1) It delays your order by at least one month, regardless of the manufacturer. Your pieces will not be scheduled for production until your dealer gets your 'approval' back to the maker and between the cut order, mailing times, your delays at home and the dealers getting back to the factory, its 30 days. 2) If you don't like the cutting, then you're back to Square 1. There are no other samples for them to send to you. This means you either cancel the order, select a totally different hide, or wait for another batch of your chosen leather to come in, and that's typically three to four months. It's very aggravating for most customers and orders can stretch out for months.

The Finished Product: Be aware then leather tends to lighten up and it goes around hard corners of the frame. Some leathers, called "pull-ups" are designed to do that. Once again that small sample won't show that happening. Also, an average sofa may take up to seven hides to make. The Art of Upholstery takes the best of the seven and uses them in the seating area and arms, those hides with barbed wire marks, insect bites and the like will be used on the backs and lower portions. Don't be alarmed if you see these natural markings, its part of the cow.

Grade Pricing: Is not indicative of quality, rather what they as the maker have to pay for the hides. So a grade III hide is not necessarily better than a grade II hide, its just more expensive. Hides that come from China or India are going to be less expensive than hides from Germany or Italy. Currency fluctuations have as much to do with grade pricing as anything.

Durability: I think folks fuss too much over durability. Live a little - get the better hides! The hand on them is so much more plush, the colors richer....and they look so much better. Buying leather furniture is a lot like drinking fine wines. When you start out, you want very consistent colors, inexpensive, tough as nails. As you grow comfortable with the leather furniture, you notice how nice and interesting the anilines hides are, and the softness and richness of them are well worth the occasional concern about a scratch that might show, or an oily stain. Like going from generic wines (Rhine, Chablis, Burgundies) to varietals (Cabernets, Chadonanays), the Art of Leather is in the Aniline hides, not the less expensive pigmented and Finished leathers.

Duane Collie

Duane,
I was told by my Bradington Young dealer that all of their hides are USA hides, is that correct? Does only Hancock and Moore use European hides?

I seriously doubt it, there are very few American tanneries because they have very high pollution rates. The bulk are Pacfic Rim, South American, or European for the upper class hides.

H&M hides are worldwide.

Duane

What a great learning experience!

Duane, if you are still out there, I have a chance to buy (through Craigslist) a Bradington Young 'Richardson' leather sofa, #866-95, in "married leather" style # 9849-69. The sofa is approx 1 year old, and is pictured in the link below.

Through emails with the seller, I glean that this has been very well cared for. Is $750 a good buy for this sofa, and do you have any comments, good or bad about this piece? Do you mind saying what you sell this piece for? I Googled it online and see that it's priced at $3010 at sites there, but I called the store in tax-free NH where he purchased it, and they say they sell this one for about $1650. The seller is perfectly willing to share the invoice with me.

From reading above, I get the impression that the married hides are from China, even though one poster's store said that ALL Bradington Young leather is from the USA. The seller says the 'cleaning code is F'. What does this mean? My sister works in a pricey furniture store here in Maine, and says they don't haven cleaning codes on their leathers, such as Whittemore-Sherrill.

Thanks for any guidance!

Here is a link that might be useful: CL B-Y sofas

married hides are ones that they have specially selected fo r certain items, they are not inferior leather and I don't believe they are from China in the BY leathers.
The code is that this leather is Finished, as in treated with a finish, not untreated.

If it is well cared for It is a good price but with anything used the fair price is what someone is willing to pay for the item.

A "Married Cover" in the context of leather furniture means a leather is sourced, cut and sewn as a 'kit' for a particular frame and then shipped to the USA in a box. When the manufacturer gets an order for that piece, they build the frame, spring it, foam it, and then pull the kit leather from the box and upholster it. In most cases, the hides do come from China (Hancock and Moore actually has a few married covers that use Italian hides, however).

This saves a considerable amount of money, as foreign labor is far less expensive to select, layout, mark, cut and sew the hide. That comes back to the consumer as a lower price point.

The downside. In some instances I will see a definite variance in quality control as to placement of markings, etc., that you would never see in a fully USA-made product. Also there are very few choices in Married Cover, and as McCall says they are largely in finished leathers.

-Duane

Dear Duane,
It's amazing how I stumbled on this Furniture 101. I've
searched for leather furniture for over a year and have leaned so much from your postings just now.

I'm sorry to get specific but, I've narrowed my search to the Venetian and 2 noble estate chairs from Ralph Lauren or 2 wallace chairs and chancellor sofa from Hancock and Moore.

I know, two different styles. If Hancock and Moore had a chair and sofa that looked like the Ralph Lauren, I'd do it in a hearbeat. However, I'm sure the HM set would be nice too.

Haven't finalized the leathers for either. I'm looking for one that doesn't feel "cold" and has a "blunt" feel. HM-Hand-antiqued saddle is right color but doesn't feel as good as Baker DL-1390.(had looked at Baker previosuly)

Do you know where the HM hand-antiqued saddle is from? Any suggestions?

It's been so hard to choose because the chairs and sofas are unavailbe to sit on. So, we go to stores with tape measure and if size is good, we go home and compare to HM or RL. I guess you can't stock everything.

Thank you again,
Mary
Mary

Bump...keep this from getting lost.

Bumping this up again.

Way up the line of postings, someone asked about sofa springs and Pirelli seat webbing. The springs were addressed, I believe; however, Pirelli webbing was not. At Raymour and Flanagan I have recently looked at Natuzzi leather sofas.and they do not have springs; they have the webbing instead. Also, all those sofas have a high-density foam in the cushions.
Does anyone have pros and cons of the webbing and of the foam now used in cushions?

Hancock and Moore just released an online video of how their furniture is made. If you would like to see how upholstery is supposed to be made, its worth a look. While it promotes their brand, its really applicable to the entire upholstery trade.

Here is a link that might be useful: H&M Production Video

Bump for a good thread (esp. for clueless noobs like myself).

Futura leather furniture uses Rubber webbing construction according to the tag on the sofa/loveseat. I can't find any information about this type of construction or Futura for that matter. What is rubber webbing construction? Will the furniture hold up well?

Chris2009_2009, I'll try to answer your question though I'm not an expert by any means.

Sounds like instead of 8 way hand tied springs, coil springs, s-springs, blue steel springs the furniture you are looking at has rubber webs to hold the cushions up. I may be wrong here but my best guess is check out an upholstered dining/kitchen chair, usually they have a webbing underneath them to hold the upholstered seating in place and give support.

Of course the furniture could just be rubber/vinyl strips going from front to back or side to side like a lawn chair.

Their are some recent posts on this board; how to buy quality furniture. Please for everyone, this posts has some good info for this.
Education is the key before shopping!

great thread. thank you Duane Collie and others. Bumping this so others will see

Bumping this. I am looking for new leather furniture and some upholstered pieces and dcollie has been a huge help.

You definitely would call Leathercraft a 101 Furniture beginning class their quality and custom designs are one of the worst! Customs do not go through without being redone over and over. The regular line you could not put two of the same frames beside each other and be the same. Their quality in leather has gotten worse over the years as well. As a past buyer, I would go right by them!!!!

Bump.

I have been using bamboo plywood for a furniture line. Besides the beauty of the grain, it is considered similar to a hardwood. It is easy to work with from a manufacturing standpoint. It has the added benefit of being eco-friendly, being a grass rather than a wood and has a negative carbon footprint. Used with a low VOC finish (I use polyx osmo) it is safe for owners. Downside is that is is grown out of the states, however I have heard teregren is growing it in the states for future use.