Anyone had to give up property rights for widening road?

11 years ago

We met with a gentleman today from a land services company that our city and Oklahoma Dept of Transportation has contracted with to purchase money for only about 10 feet of our property line due to a 2 lane street turning it into a 4 lane with sidewalks and bike lane. It is on the side of our house (we live on about 3 acres) so it won't affect us too much, but our "horse-type" of fence will need to be taken down and moved back. Our house does not face that street so that is good. We will lose the privacy of trees that are on the city's easement, which is a bummer, so we will have to plant some with our own money.

Anyway, we are not educated in this to say the least and was wondering if we should contact anyone to make sure we get what it is worth. They land services company, the city, and ODOT are working together on this deal with federal funding.

Is there anything we should watch out for or be aware of before we accept their offer? Whatever that will be. We aren't trying to get a lot of money, just what is fair-but how do we know what is fair.

I need to find out where to look or questions to ask.

Featured Answer

golddust

11 years ago

Since our property butts up to a HWY on one side, we planted another row of trees years and years ago, just in case they want to take out the first bunch to widen the road. We have decades head start on a privacy tree line so it would be no big deal for us at this point.

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Comments (30)

gsciencechick
11 years ago
Yes, you need an attorney who specializes in real estate litigation. DH does this type of work and has gotten more money for the client. Of course, laws vary by state, so you need to see what is possible in your state.

Check with the firm who did your closing to see if they have a real estate litigator on staff.

This post was edited by gsciencechick on Tue, Mar 12, 13 at 19:48
neetsiepie
11 years ago
We are going thru a similar thing. They are adding sidewalks and a bike lane in front of our house where our right-of-way is. I was initially told that they were compensating landowners for the ROW access, and that it would be based on the value of the land, not the value of the house-because all the lots were taxed at the size of the lot for one part, and on improvements on the rest. So our home, which is much improved over my next door neighbors dump, would get compensated at the same amount, because our lots are the same size. Doesn't really seem fair! But it's the land value that we're losing, not the improvements.

So, anyway, initially we were told we'd get compensated, and that any improvements (shrubs, fences, etc) would be compensated. Now. we find out no...not the case at all. The ROW is alread their easement, so we won't get compensated for any of it...AND they're adding another 2 feet to their ROW without compensation as it's supposedly part of their initial ROW. I don't know about that-I knew we had a 10 foot ROW, but not this additional area.

We're not losing any trees or shrubs, but I will have to dig out my roses & replant them, and move our fence (that's ok since we need to do that anyway). My next door neighbor IS losing some very large shrubs and a tree-all overgrown and impeding our sigh line, but he's REALLY ticked off about that. I don't know if he's getting compensated because it's within that 2 foot area.

But as to the value of the land-they'll probably offer you the same deal-a portion of your land value commiserate with the amount taken.
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Bry911, you write with authority. Are you an attorney? If you are correct and I'm wrong, will you please cite a case or two that proves "fee owners" of the land must pay for maintaining private roads across their land. I've not seen that nor have I seen "fee owner" applied to a road easement discussion before. I'm curious to know what region of the country that language comes from. Here's a simple definition of "fee simple" ownership: A fee simple represents absolute ownership of land, and therefore the owner may do whatever he or she chooses with the land. Granting an easement over land changes things. No longer can the fee simple owner -- the servient land owner -- exercise "absolute" authority over his or her land. Certain rights have been granted to the easement holder or holders. How easements are governed varies from state to state, so trying to provide a one size fits all answer to this question is not possible. That said, I stand by my earlier statement about the responsibilities of land owners regarding private road maintenanceIt is , noting as a qualifier my West Coast experience. If bry911 or someone else has different information -- case law would be helpful -- we will all benefit from your expertise. I do not believe, however, that the legal terminology changes depending on region of the country. The legal term used to define the estate -- or property -- that holds an easement over another property is the "dominant estate." The land the easement crosses is the "servient estate." On the West Coast, and elsewhere across the U.S., it is generally held that the servient estate owner must not do anything that prevents the dominant owner from using the easement. Also, it is my understanding that states across the U.S. do not normally hold the servient estate solely responsible for maintaining a private road used by a dominant estate. Costs are normally shared on an equal basis by those who use the road. Costs could fall entirely to a single dominate estate or be shared with others who also use the road to access their properties. When private roads exist, there should be a road agreement that is part of the recorded title documents. Its job is to spell out who is responsible for what. Sadly, road agreements are often non existent or so poorly worded as to be mostly useless for preventing disputes. My first question to alisonn should have been: Is there a road agreement attached to your title documents? It is important to point out that limits generally apply to the rights of the dominant estate. For instance, if you are the dominant estate holder and want to pave your gravel private road, you most likely can't unilaterally decide to pave; you need the servient estate holder's permission. You also can't expand or alter the easement or use it for anything other than the rights granted, which often means ingress and egress only. What those who use private roads often fail to realize is that they are crossing land that does not belong to them in order to access their own homes. In my experience, most private road problems arise because people purchase property burdened with easements and they don't realize what that means. Clashes arise when the law rises up and smacks their uninformed expectations on the nose. We buyers often get excited about our new home or new land and don't read the title documents carefully, nor do we ask about the details concerning such things as easements, private roads and road agreements. My wife and I learned the hard way with land and home purchases in the Pacific Northwest that it is important to do one's own research before buying. Now, we ALWAYS look closely at the title documents before buying property. They can be obtained by title companies and from county records. We also knock on the doors of potential neighbors and ask questions before we buy … and we especially want to know about easements. Why are we so careful? Because we ended up in a three-year battle over an easement that went to the Washington State Supreme Court and set legal precedent regarding easement use. That was a high five-figure educational experience. Also, we've found that easements and boundaries are commonly abused, often unknowingly, but that still doesn't make things easier when a new owner has to deal with them.
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OllieJane
Original Author
11 years ago
gscienchick, THANKS, just the information I need! Although, I would only be interested if it was quite a bit more money, but I guess I wouldn't know until I got an attorney to give me some idea.

pesky, interesting you are going through the same thing. There are houses about a mile down the road that they are taking most of their backyard! That doesn't seem fair really.

We were planning on putting our house on the market in May sometime, which of course we will disclose that information, even though construction won't be happening until November they say.
User
11 years ago
This may happen to us at some point in the future. There have been plans at our state department of transportation for several years to expand our street, which is a county highway, but the final plan has never been approved. We sit about a half mile off the road, and our gate is at least 16 feet in--- just in case. We would hate to have to give up our easement and I hope it never happens.
Miz_M
11 years ago
In my experience (Texas), if you don't take the initial offer, they will simply seize the land using Eminent Domain, and the owner gets nothing. Not fair, but it's sadly legal here to do that. So I agree with contacting an attorney to see what your state laws and rights are.
Miz_M
11 years ago
PS: a positive to this: you may be able to have your property taxes lowered. We have a utility easement, protested to our CAD, and had ours significantly lowered.
Oakley
11 years ago
OM, I'm going to send you an email.
mboston_gw
11 years ago
I had a friend who lost her entire property during the widening of a 2 lane to a 4 lane with an additional turn lane and median. She was actually very pleased with what she got for her land and house - she was able to move nearby and put all the money into the new place with just a small amount added.

Another friend was also impacted during the same road work. Her lot boardered a retention pond and a brick wall that enclosed the community she lived in. They had to redesign the retention pond and move the brick wall back.
They paid them for the land they took, only because of the
pond. I think the distance for the wall was within the easement. She lost a few small trees that she had to pay to have moved cause they weren't going to be careful with them and she wanted to replant them. They went back and forth a little but finally came to a mutual agreement on the amoung.
OllieJane
Original Author
11 years ago
Thank you all for responding. I am going to see what the offer is before I do anything, we could be pleasantly surprised.
mtnrdredux_gw
11 years ago
Miz M,

I know Texas is a little ... different ... but really? Part and parcel of the doctrine of Eminent Domain is that the govt can seize property in the public interest for "fair market value". The determination of FMV can get contentious, but I cannot believe that it could possibly be constitutional, anywhere, to "simply seize the land using Eminent Domain, and the owner gets nothing".
dedtired
11 years ago
Goldgirl -- at the same time and the same word. Great minds and all that!
soundnesss
11 years ago
Hi, I work for a municipality and have to do this from time to time on the City side. A few things, we would rather negotiate a deal between the owner and the City than have to go through the appraisal process. That takes several thousand dollars of our money and staff time. First, we will ask for the property to be donated. There may be improvements (drainage, etc.) that is an improvement to the owner. If the owner wants to be compensated, I usually pay a negotiated price - that may be fair market or close. We also will replant landscaping and take care of any other owner improvements. (Moving irrigation systems, replacing landscape rock if it is disturbed, matching in sod, etc.)

If they are using Federal dollars, they may have to do the appraisal process or other things to comply with using that money. It can get complicated and contentious, but I think anyone you are dealing with would want it to be amicable. Be polite and transparent in your dealings and hopefully they will do the same. Don't be afraid to take it up the chain to the supervisor, or all the way to the Mayor/elected official if you want to. Keep your cool and don't come off like an irate citizen. They have seen way too many of these people and they will not go out of their way to help you. I bend over backwards for kind, professional, honest people.

Let me know if I can answer any questions and help make this a better process for you.
OllieJane
Original Author
11 years ago
soundness, thank you for your input. They are, or having appraisers sent out, but haven't heard the amount yet. The gentleman they sent out was very nice and we were very amicable. He said so, and said all the neighbors were except one, which I knew who he was talking about.

I actually think the widening will look good when it is done. I will like there will be sidewalk and it is suppose to be nicely landscaped. But, like I said earlier, it is on the side of our house which sits back a long way from that road anyway, and it's on the side of our house, not frontal property. I would have preferred it to stay the same as it always has been, but, I guess that is unrealistic in life.

Thank you for your information and I will even go the extra measure to be polite as you stated. What did you mean by being transparent in your dealings?

And, here is another question I have: The gentleman we met with said "We are on your side"-have any idea what he meant by that?

More than anything, I am concerned with the road construction while we have our house on the market, and that it is not going to look desireable while all that is going on. We are trying our best to get things done (upstairs was unfinished and we are adding 1100 sf upstairs with 2 bedrooms and gameroom, etc). Hopefully, we can get it done quickly!

I'm sure I will have questions as progress arises, so be looking for this post! LOL
soundnesss
11 years ago
Olliesmom, sounds like you are off to a good start. I bet you will be really pleased with the improvements. Construction is a pain in the rear, but it won't last forever. They can keep you updated on their schedule so you can best plan for your home sale. The improvements are exactly that - improvements to your property too and that should actually be a selling point.
I think heÃ¢ÂÂs just trying to put you at ease when he says heÃ¢ÂÂs on your side. He knows this is a stressful time for people, sounds like he is no amateur. That said, you still need to protect your interests and use your own judgment on how itÃ¢ÂÂs going.

I have never charged a property owner for anything related to an improvement I have done, i.e. the re-landscaping. There should be money in their budget to redo these things or compensate you to do them - coupon to the nursery. They are making these improvements and just canÃ¢ÂÂt ignore the impacts they make on the private property side.

You sound like you are kind of far away from the construction zone but I tell people to keep their windows closed during construction - it can get really dusty. They will be there from dawn to dusk and it will be noisy.

A few things I would ask:

Is the city/county/??? responsible for maintenance of the landscaping and will they have irrigation?

Does your property drain to that side where they will be building the road/sidewalk? Make sure that water does not get trapped on your property and pond up. Ask for a scupper or catch basin in the low area - those will feed the storm drainage onto the street under the sidewalk.

By transparency, I just mean open honest communication. You will have to decide if you need to be wary of the people you are dealing with, but I always just lay it all out there (that means giving people both the good and bad news) and I personally think that is best.

If you donÃ¢ÂÂt understand something ask about it. Some engineers have difficulty with non-technical talk. Ask them to explain it without the jargon. If you get upset - tell them.
If you donÃ¢ÂÂt agree to the sale, they will condemn the property. They still have to pay you that appraised price if they condemn, but it costs them more money. If it were me, I would agree to the appraised value (IF YOU THINK IT IS FAIR!), make sure the comparative properties they are using are really comparative, and ask for fair compensation for any impacts to your property.

Also, take LOTS of pictures to that side of your land, trees, bushes, etc. so you document the current condition before they get out there.

Good luck, sounds like it is all going to be fine, IÃ¢ÂÂll be keeping up with you.
Miz_M
11 years ago
Yes, mtnrdredux, really. Eminent Domain is very abused in my "different" state. If you refuse to sell, they can have your property condemned. There have even been court cases of gas drilling companies doing it, which is for private profit.

Edit to add: forgot to mention the Keystone Pipeline as a recent example.

This post was edited by Miz_M on Sun, Mar 24, 13 at 17:25
suero
11 years ago
Fairfax County wanted to build a sidewalk, a portion of which was along property owned by Zbigniew Brzezinski and his wife. If you're going to negotiate with someone who spent his life negotiating, it's gonna cost you. Initially offered $19,000 for an easement on the 275-foot-long strip in 2004, the Brzezinskis finally agreed to dedicate the land to the county for $81,650 plus special construction to mitigate damage to their mature trees . The deal was consummated in 2011.
OllieJane
Original Author
11 years ago
soundness, love the info I am getting from you! We are taking pictures today and I the questions you posted are so helpful. I would not thought of them! Great advice! Thank you!
ouichef432
6 years ago
KK, sure, I'll help if I can. Not sure what ID is though.

sound
ouichef432
6 years ago
OK, I'm all ears...
ouicheri
6 years ago
KK, I'm sorry but I don't have experience with what you are going through. It sounds like even though you have a lot to work through, you are still proceeding with the purchase? That leads me to think that the DOT only needs a portion of the property and you will still have a viable portion of the land to own and operate?

The only thing I can offer is that if it is a state/federal DOT project they have to follow the Uniform Act for purchase and the process is very structured. They will have to provide two appraisals that include the value of land and structures that are impacted by the actual property they need.

Generally, it is always in their (DOT) best interest to pay appraisial value, or over appraisial value if it gets them what they need without litigating condemnation. They would rather not tie up their staff and pay for this process.

I would recommend speaking with an attorney that has real estate/property rights as their emphasis. I know there are other forums that deal with legal issues, but I would take on line information you receive about this with a grain of salt. It sounds very nuanced and you need a professional that is working on your behalf.

Good luck and sorry I couldn't be of more help, maybe someone else here can.

Sound
User
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Our property has gone through something similar twice. Once to redirect and pave the road so a subdivision could be built down the road and once for the walking/bike path to be installed. We weren't here for the road change, but the result was rather large easement in front of our property. Then three years ago a township rep came in to advise about a walking path they were going to install in front of 4 houses on our road. No one wanted the path for a variety of reasons, including privacy issues but the guy promised the end result would be a benefit to values and they'd work with each homeowner to ensure their privacy would be preserved and anything disrupted like sprinklers or plantings would be fixed to better than new.

When I explained that we had plans to completely renovate the landscape and reconfigure our long driveway, he asked what we had in mind. As it turned out, one of the funding requirements was that the path maintain specific leveling so it would be handicap friendly and due to the slope in the property, any changes to the drive later on may be prohibited as a result. The drive as it was wasn't a safe exit so we chatted for a bit about what our vision was and the why's of it all. His response was, sign the quit claim and we will take care of it all for you. The only thing that he promised that we did not get was a row of trees for privacy but we essentially had a new 150 ft driveway, a parking path and new yard when it was done.

In addition to the advise that Soundness is giving, which is pretty much how our transaction worked be very sure that ANY and ALL agreements made between you and the city/county are listed in the quit claim before you sign it. The trees were actually discussed in a subsequent conversation. Both my husband and I were present and clearly heard the man agree to installing trees for some privacy, his exact words were, "that can happen and will not be a problem" but since the tree install was excluded in the Quit Claim, he denied having said that and considering the cost of the drive even got upset at us for suggesting he'd agreed to that.
PRO
FaithButlers
3 years ago
I suppose that there are many documents to prepare, it needs accuracy and probably a good lawyer
IdaClaire
3 years ago
Ummm ... thread is at least three years old, "pros".
sushipup1
3 years ago
Note that both are "Air Duct cleaning" pros. I think that all the people who join with that designation are spammers. Or more accurately necrospam editors. My apologies to all honest pro air duct cleaners who might be on this site, but I haven't seen any yet.
IdaClaire
3 years ago
I flagged them both, as I'm sure you did too, Sushi. What a desperate bunch of spammers congregate here from time to time. Worst marketing skills ever.
sushipup1
3 years ago
I think that they are just bots. Or just one person who keeps reregistering under different names. But every time some innocent clicks on a link, they get paid. It's not marketing.
IdaClaire
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago
It is if it's generating money! Marketing bots are a thing.
darrell moore Moore
2 years ago
I have a similiar situation. I live in a rural area of my county but over the years the town has grown out towards our property. The road that runs in front of my house will now be widened from a 2 lane to a 5 lane with a turning lane. The TXDot has offered us money for our land that we are losing but we are also losing peace and quite. We are also losing that ability to slow down and turn into our property without getting tail ended. I really think we will also be losing some property value. Im wondering if anyone has any luck getting compensated for those things?
HU-92563694
last year
last modified: last year
Our house faces the road and we don't have a very big front yard .I spoke to a lawyer and if they take my case on the first off he 30% and 10% on each offer after that so to me it seems like he would more than we would. From what I unerstand they will have to build the yard up because it sits at a slope.

Anyone had to give up property rights for widening road?

golddust

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