Wow, you done good!

I too, have been working on acquiring bread baking skills. My beloved mom made Italian bread more days than not in her life; that was her job as a child. You would have thought I would have taken advantage of the opportunity to be an apprentice for a master bread maker.

Looks like this weeks "Mission Impossible" mission has been solved. Congratulations! Where's the party? I'll have two slices with olive oil and cracked black pepper! ~<:->And yes, wetter is better for holes. Also careful deflation and handling of the dough so you don't press out all those lovely holes. Did you add steam to the oven and what temperature did you bake your bread? Those two factors will also help with that crispy crust.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Bakers Percentages

Bread making is very addictive! You have opened a can of worms (so to speak).

What good eating and fun lies ahead.

I think your first bread looks fantastic!

Okay, John, you must read 52 Loaves by William Alexander. He had the same quest you did. The book is informative and very entertaining.

Your loaves look wonderful. Now I've got to go get some bread started.

Sally

Another way of creating a steamy baking atmosphere is to bake the bread inside a cloche. A cloche is a covered ceramic container. This is an important part of Jim Lahey's no-knead method. He uses a large dutch oven or covered casserole heated "blazing hot". I recently purchased a large rectangular lidded glass casserole for this purpose. Cloches of various shapes and sizes can be purchased.

Another way I have read about for creating steam is to toss ice cubes into the oven. I haven't tried that. I guess the idea is that ice cubes are easier to toss than water.

Spraying a mist of water hasn't been effective for me because I used a small, wimpy sprayer which didn't provide enough water. The mist just evaporated and disappeared instantly. Maybe i should have set the nozzle for "stream" instead of "spray". A more powerful sprayer would probably work better. Commercial bread ovens have a spray system built in.

Jim

GREAT job!!!! I think it looks beautiful. I have an unexpected snow day today so I decided to make some bread for the first time in a long time. I use this recipe except I sub in cheese for the olives. Totally different I know but I love the texture of this bread-it's definitely got the texture of an artisan bread.

Here is a link that might be useful: Culinary Institute of America Olive Bread

I used 425F on a pizza stone with a pan of water on the bottom of oven.

Well, John, I can only say pretty much
What everyone else has already said! !

That is a beautiful loaf of bread,
Or Baguette, or whatever it might be called.

And personally, I much prefer the crumb pictured
over the bigger holes, or voids.
I don't want all that wonderful,
melting butter dripping through,
making a mess,
and being wasted.

I may not be a "goumet bread baker",
but I've been baking bread for a very long time.
50 years, give or take a few.
And your loaf would make me proud.

Rusty

Forgot to say,
About the slashes.

I've always wondered about the reasoning behind them.
They may LOOK attractive,
But do they add anything to flavor? ?

Rusty

Wish I had a piece right now :)

Congrats!

Sue

Maybe the slashes allow the bread to keep expanding while baking despite the outer skin hardening? Don't know - I just did what I was told . . .

Thanks for all the encouraging words, my next loaf will probably look like a cow patty.

John, There is interesting discussion about slashing on this website.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dough Slashing

According to abin5, rather than putting or keeping a pan of water in the oven, the object is to create steam within the first 10 minutes of baking. So they say, authors Hertzberg and Francois, to keep a pan or broiler pan in the oven and after you put the loaf in the oven, dump a cup of tap water into the pan, and that's what is supposed to make steam. The abin5 authors think that's better than spraying, but I think I got the spraying idea from their book or website. My mister does make a weak steam, but I do get a very crispy crust, no matter. Crispola. Isn't this fun? Can you believe bread comes out?

Really great looking bread John and I'll bet that your next loaf will be just as great or better - no way that it will look like something from a cow.

Lee

Well, I got busy and made bread dough, but decided to refrigerate it instead of bake it, as DH was making chile, and we figured cornbread would be better to eat with chile. So, we'll probably use our bread for pizza later this week, or for some other purpose. Thanks for the inspiration, John.

Sally

Try #2. I increased water to 68% hydration (I think #1 was about 65%) and used yeast from a non-expired jar. I also sprayed water into the oven, and brushed melted butter about 10 min before the end. The recipe is all-purpose flour, 1.9% salt, 1.9% yeast, 68% water. The dough is pretty soft and sticky. I baked at 450F on a stone, took the bread out at 210F.

The crust was very crisp, I could take the bread out a bit sooner I think. Brushing with butter gets me as much browning as I like with shorter baking times. I want a flakier texture, and may also tone back the spraying.
- what helps with a flakier crust - butter in the dough?

The holes are a bit bigger, but still far from what I want. I'm going to increase water, and proof my yeast.
- I didn't set the bowl on the heater vent this time, I think I'll do that again.

I think this recipe has a bit too much salt. I'm going to cut that by 1/3.
- I like the salt taste but because I can notice it, it is perhaps a bit much.

Practice makes perfect!! And you are getting there...
Are you eating your "mistakes?"
It's hard when you get the bug and want to try whole wheat and rye and anadama and 7 grain bread and raisin bread....and you want to bake bread as fast as you can.....and what to do with it all?
I find many of my friends gladly take the rest of my experimental loaves!!
Enjoy,....baking bread is very satisfying!

I am also thinking I may have skimped on the kneading. I did not understand what purpose the kneading serves, but after some reading I see that if I don't knead adequately, my bread may not have enough gluten to hold the yeast's gas bubbles.
- How long should I knead? I have been using the food processor until the flour water etc are combined into a mushy sort-of-ball, and then for another 30 sec. This is only about 2 minutes of food processing. Then I've been hand-kneading for maybe 2 minutes. That seems too short, would you say?

John,

Your first bread was good. This one is far better, IMO. It has a wonderful crumb structure and the crust has character that the first one didn't. I would be happy if my bread always looked so good as this one.

Jim

Oh yes, Jim, I agree, that second loaf looks darned near perfect to me. I like the crusty crust, my kids always liked a soft crust, so I brushed with melted butter after a loaf came from the oven.

I'm no "gourmet bread baker" either, but I baked my first loaf when I was 7 and I'm nearly 56 now, so almost 50 years of bread baking. I've had some spectacular failures, but mostly it was edible...

A wetter dough should help with the bigger holes, you need a 70-85% hydration, and if you are using a high protein flour, it needs to be even more because the high protein flours absorb more liquid. That would be whole grains, bread flours, even King Arthur all purpose is pretty high.

Be sure to let it rise sufficiently to give the CO2 time to make the holes, and when you are shaping your loaf, be gentle and don't squash out those holes, handle the dough carefully.

But first, stock up on butter!

Annie

The problem, lindac, is that each loaf is 800 cal and I'm trying to lose weight. So I will be working with halved recipes from now on (current recipe makes 2 loaves) or giving away a loaf or two every day. As it is, on bread days I'm basically forgoing most other food, as the bread is ''crowding out'' stuff like vegetables.

Hey, I have a question.

As I try wetter and wetter doughs (at >75% hydration now), my loaves are coming out more flat-bottomed. I'd like them to be rounder in cross-section. What is the trick?

I'm about to put in a loaf that I've wrapped in in a sort of "U" of spray-oiled aluminum foil, in hopes of getting a long and round-ish baguette. I'm overlapping the top of the foil loosely, thinking it might hold in moisture a bit. This is also my first attempt at a pre-ferment. Disaster, I think, awaits.

Eh, the aluminum foil didn't work. It didn't hold the bread in any rounder of a cross section and the bread crust had voids where it touched the foil.

The pre-ferment seemed to do something. This bread has somewhat larger holes than the bread of the same 75% hydration that I made without pre-fermenting. I did switch from AP flour (ran out) to King Arthur bread flour, which I gather means I should have increased the water, but I didn't.

That second try looks wonderful.

I have the same problem, John. I love to bake, especially bread, but oh, the calories. I bake bread to save money and for better nutrition, but we tend to eat more of of it, faster, than store bought bread. Such a quandary.

Sally

"...my loaves are coming out more flat-bottomed. I'd like them to be rounder in cross-section. What is the trick?"

I haven't mastered that either but I can suggest a couple of areas you might want to investigate as you experiment.

1. Loaf shaping. Tension is added to the surface of the loaves by folding the dough in certain ways. What ways? I'm not able to explain that very well.

2. Oven spring. Heat caused expansion of the gas bubbles in the dough when the loaves are first put in the oven, giving height to the loaves. Let me know if you find ways of encouraging oven spring.

Jim

This is 75% hydration, but with bread flour (previous efforts all AP flour). I'm going to try a couple more at 80% and 85%, then take a break - my waistline is unfortunately responding to generating 1,000 cal/day in baked goods . . .

Jim, I don't know anything about how to get more/less oven spring. I definitely notice that my dough seems to be most puffy/light after the second rise, when I form that into loaves I lose a lot of volume and don't get it all back in subsequent (third) rise/baking. I'm thinking about forming into loaves directly after the first rise and thus going from second rise directly to the oven.

I started to make bread tonight, but it got late, so I put the kneaded dough in the refrigerator to winter overnight. The fridge is 32F and the dough will stay there until early afternoon tomorrow. Is that dough going to be ruined? The yeast killed? Or will I be able to simply pick up tommorrow where I left off, with rising and baking?

Just got to doing too many things this evening. Made a batch of chicken-tomato-cream-orange soup. Sliced and marinated some flank steak and started it in the dehydrator for overnight jerky. Tried ''grilling'' some chicken under the broiler - ehh.

John, Cold won't kill the yeast, but you will need to let the dough come to room temperature. And at 32ðF that is going to take a while.

Ann

It will be fine. Bring the dough to room temperture before you shape it. After I shape the loaf, I just get my hands wet and touch the loaf all over with wet hands if I want a crispy crust. Let it rise. Make the slashes JUST before puting it into the hot oven. I sometimes slide in a small pan of ice cubes when I put the bread in and it seems to make steam quickly.

Save the butter to eat on the bread because butter in the baking process is going to soften the crust. If you were making a loaf of sandwich bread that would be thin sliced then the buttered top is a great idea.

Hi John,
Not much to add to what others have said about your success. Wonderful job!

I have been making bread every week for about 40 years and know that if your yeast is kept in the freezer it will last for years. The key is to keep it away from moisture. When you dissolve the yeast in warm water you are proofing it... the yeast has to prove it is viable. To hasten this process, dissolve a tiny pinch of sugar in the water before you stir in the yeast. It will bubble and foam in minutes if it is alive.

If you think you'll be making a lot of bread, check Costco. I bought 2# of Red Star vacuum-packed yeast for a way under $10... it was a while ago and I don't remember exactly what I paid. But it was several times less than what I would have paid for an equivalent amount in small packages in a grocery store.

Happy baking from Bonnie

John, I agree with Sally. You must read 52 Loaves by William Alexander. I'm only a few pages into the book but I thought of you and your quest for the perfect loaf. Incidentally, I was also thinking you're already doing a terrific job!

jude

You think that (I am doing a good job) because you haven't seen my recent loaves. Of which I have definitely not posted pics.

Oddly, ever since I have started using the Magic Mill to knead, instead of the food processor, my bread has been dense with small holes, not the light with big holes that I was sort of working toward before. Same recipe exactly (80% water, 3% salt, 2% yeast, 100% bread flour, straight dough). The dough is not rising as much, either before forming or in the oven.

I assume I haven't quite adapted to the new kneading process. The food processor heated up the dough quite a bit more than the Magic Mill does, I wonder if that is the difference.

Maybe you're taking too much of a scientific approach. LOL

John, where do you live? Maybe if you are near one of us you can have a tutoring session -- live and in person.

Bonnie, northern California

Good point Jude.

I really think that making bread is often over thought.

Also John, I have found that a wet dough really needs a longer knead. I bought my Magic Mill around 16 years ago and I bought it specifically to knead wet doughs.

I add the yeast, water and flour and give a quick mix just enough to mix it all together. Then I leave it to rest for 20 to 30 minutes so that the flour has a chance to absorb some of the water. After this resting period I add the salt and then knead until the dough is such that I can finish the kneading by hand.

Ann

Ann, how long do you run the Magic Mill, in total?

Here's tonight's loaf. My slashing has improved but the interior was really disappointing. In addition to being dense with small holes, it was actually sort of damp and sticky. I might turn down the heat - have been using 425F, and at that temp I can't bake much longer without getting the crust too brown.

Setbacks and all, it is still a lot of fun.

John, can't see the inside but the outside looks perfect.

I bake bread at 500ðF. Usually a baguette is done in 18 to 20 minutes. Try sticking an instant read thermometer into one end. I like the internal temperature to be between 200 to 210ðF.

Ann

Wow, the exterior looks absolutely perfect. I have a really hard time getting nice slashes, my bread always deflates.

And this is why we need more engineers in the kitchen.

John,
I am so impressed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ann, 500F? Wow, that sounds, uh, serious.

I just formed a loaf, so I'll try it. I followed your process of a quick initial mix sans salt, then let it sit for 1/2 an hour, then added salt and put the Magic Mill to work. No hand kneading at the end, though. I am allergic to work, and have no idea what to do anyway.

My new suspicion is that my yeast, despite being a newish jar stored in the refrigerator, is not up to snuff. I was underwhelmed at it's energy level while proofing with warm water and sugar. It was, I guess, active - but more of a somnolent old man kind of active than a perky young athlete sort of active.

Yeast is weird. I'm not used to the idea of cooking with living things that need to be doing their living and breathing thing. Usually everything I cook with is nice and dead.

John, I think the roundness on the bottom comes from using a round pan like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Metallic-Commercial-Non-Stick-Perforated/dp/B003SZBSUK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299074994&sr=8-1

I second the suggestion to put a broiling pan on the bottom rack as the oven preheats and toss water onto it when you put the bread in the oven.

Being allergic to work, you really should give the Lahey/ABin5 thing a try.

PS: They look awesome!!

Just a progress report. I made this bread with nearly 100% hydration, baked at 500F on a stone. The holes aren't as big as I was aiming for, and they are not distributed well, but next time I will rise it in a warmer place.

I'm going to try covered baking soon.

Lovely bread..you are a natural...LOL

Linda

mmmmm :-)

It's gorgeous, John. The holes are many and huge. I'd be thrilled with that loaf.

The website, "artisanbreadinfive.com" has lots of info about covered artisan bread baking. That's where I learned of using an aluminum turkey roaster over a pizza stone, if you don't have a cast iron pot with a lid.

I bought cast iron covered pots just for the breads, but improvisation with other tools are being increasingly used. Huh is that a sentence?

I tried an experiment tonight.

The idea was to make a sort-of-ciabatta, but in baguette form. I also wanted a chewy interior, not a soft crumb. It kind of worked, but the process was weird.

I made a slightly over 100% hydration dough, set it for 14 minutes kneading in the Magic Mill, went out to do an errand and left the dough to start rising in the mixer bowl, came back and poured the partly-risen dough into a steel workbowl and continued rising it over a heater vent. After about two and a half hours, I figured the dough was as risen as it was going to get. I floured two pieces of parchment paper, and poured the dough onto those in sort of long puddles. The dough was so wet, only a little firmer than porridge, that it was really hard to work. Even with floured hands, you can't handle it, but with a silicone spatula you can fold the edges over the top, then flour the top, lift the paper like a stretcher, and set each piece of dough-laden paper in a perforated metal trough similar to what dcarch showed in a prior baguette thread. Then into a pre-heated 550F oven, mist heavily, bake about 15 minutes, turn the heat down to 450F, mist some more, and bake for - I don't know - because I dozed off. Maybe 40 minutes or more total baking time. Ran to the oven, saw the loaves were not actually incinerated, and pulled them out. The loaves had oven sprung by over 2X, the internal temp was 212.5F, the crust was dark brown and thick, but the loose flour hadn't burned, and the interior was chewy, toothsome, faintly tough. Which was my goal. Not ideal for denture wearers.

I can't post a picture because photobucket seems to have forgotten that I exist - weird.

Next time, I'll knead longer, rise in a proper oiled bowl, let the poured loaves rise in the troughs, insert a probe thermometer, and bake to a higher internal temp - maybe 215-220F. Fun with bread.

Actually the bread experiments have to slow down again, because our house guests are all gone and we just can't eat too much bread when it is just us.

I have tried the no-knead bread but can't seem to get it right. I've not given up on the idea, but the score is 0-3 to date.

What's going wrong with the no knead? Maybe we can help.

Thanks, JVH. I just don't get much rise during the 12 or 18 hours, and not much oven spring either. Nice flatbread. I'm going to try again, following the directions slavishly - no dozing off during baking, etc - and may borrow a cast iron pot from SOTBT. I'll post a dejected whine if that doesn't work. I apparently won't post pictures until the Photobucket Overlords get my account fixed.

Try putting the dough in the fridge (right away, or within a few hours) and using it a few days later. There seems to be a vast difference in oven spring based on the age of the dough. If you want to really cover your bases, use the larger amount of yeast called for in the ABin5 version, and also knead in some more flour when you take it out of the fridge, so that it's solid enough to rise on the counter. Let it rise for an hour or two, then bake it covered for the 30 minutes of the cooking time or until it gets so tall that you're forced to take off the lid (cast iron is good, but anything will work). When following all these steps, I get something that resembles a beach ball :-)