Wow, I didn't know there were any other manufacturers making open burner ranges other than Viking, Wolf and Bluestar. While I don't know anything about the two ranges you are asking about, so really shouldn't be advising you, I still like that the Five Star model has an open burner configuration.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread about Open or Sealed Burners

Here is an older thread about Fivestar ranges.

Asking about Fivestar Range

I bought a Berta recently and have been very pleased with my choice. I checked back on previous threads, contacted owners and got good reports. Haven't found anything to disagree with. It has an excellent, steady oven with no temperature averaging (the dirty little secret of why some ovens drive people crazy) - you just crack the door of the oven before turning it on -- no different than lifting or removing the bbq lid.

I love our Bertazzoni. We've had it a few weeks now and still enjoying all the cooking.

One thing I'd advise you look at is the oven size -- it's a bit on the smaller side with the Berta. But with your cooking only bread, pizza, and misc items I wouldn't worry about it (similar to our cooking patterns).

Love the burners, love the look, cleaning is a snap and it looks amazing. Also the convection is a nice feature to use or not use, as it's optional. Lookswise I personally didn't like the slab the FiveStar has in the middle of the grates; but it does look like a very nice range.

The Bertazzoni recently appeared at my local appliance store. I had the opportunity to compare the experience of opening the door on the Bertazzoni to opening the door on the Wolf of the same size.

I am sorry to have to tell you that if your idea of a good time is opening an oven door and being thrilled with its precision, the Bertazzoni will not meet your needs. The Wolf door is the door of choice for the oven door aficionado. It is built like a tank. On the other hand, if you are not planning on going into combat in your kitchen, you might consider the fact that Bertazzoni mentions that reasonable price is one of their design goals, and that the design of no other range embodies so much cheerfulness. I am looking forward to getting one as soon as I have a kitchen floor worthy of it. My saleswoman told me that the store had sold only a few so far, but the Bertazzoni owners were very happy with their choice.

Try NXR. The Berta oven is too small.

Why is it repeated here that the Berta oven is small as if that's some type of defect? It's a European range -- not a "pro style" range. Most European ranges have smaller ovens than pro ranges geared to the American market. That's a given.

The Berta oven is larger or as large, I believe, than some in more expensive Euro ranges including Lacanche, La Cornue, Aga.

If you need a bigger oven then go for NXR.

More important than size (and perhaps I'm alone in this but I make my own judgments based on my experience) is the even heating, no temperature averaging and the relatively short preheat time. The downside on the Berta is that it really requires an oven thermometer as there's no digital readout and the knob design makes it hard to tell exactly where the oven is set. But that's a $9 solution I'll trade over temperature averaging any day.

"temperature averaging" -- First I've heard that term. Rather than guess, what do you mean by that?

Ovens that work by temperature averaging heat over the set temperature then turn off or reduce heat until the temperature falls to the set temperature. Then kick on again when it falls below. It's all supposed to average out. IME it does not.

That is in contrast to an oven which heats to the set temperature and remains there. When you see reports of uneven heating or cooking that is often the culprit. Don't know how we got to that system but variations on that theme are common these days and I'd like to see it go.

I've had both types of ovens and found a real difference in performance, particularly with certain baked items.

Originally looked into the 24" Berta cooktop, now thinking of the 24" range. The real test is whether or not the oven will hold a Lodge cast iron 14" pizza pan, which has two 1" handles on the sides. My Sharp convection/mwave turntable Carousel has a 16" cavity, but it cannot spin with the handles catching on the sides.

So the gas oven might just be the right size. With just the two of us at home and no massive cooking chores, I'd sure like to get the Berte range if I could use the pizza pan.

Does anyone have the 24" model? Or, if you have the 30" Berte range, what size is the oven? The Berta website did not give the dimensions of the 30" range's oven.

We have a small kitchen and I mean small. I already threw out the huge 30" electric range which took up so much space. For the past 6 months, we've cooked on a Waring Professional Double Burner hot plate. They say caterers use it. That and the Presto covered electric skillet and the Sharp convection/mwave oven have worked pretty good in the limited space we have available.

Rococogurl.... I'm curious as to how, exactly, the oven in Berta heats to and holds a temp if not in the way you describe as 'temperature averaging'? I was not aware of any other method being used.

Berta heats to temperature and stays there. It is very steady which I can track on the oven thermometer.

Some ovens work on temperature averaging -- they overheat, kick off while temp falls -- then heat up again. Sometimes this works through the convection; sometimes not.

Brands don't advertise that but it's the way some ovens are designed and it is a system I don't like at all. Anyone who bakes a lot will HATE it.

Before I bought any oven or range today I'd call and very innocently ask the consumer folks how the oven works -- temperature averaging or not and very specifically whether the oven has a coil temperature gauge or what type.

The Berta people mentioned specifically to me it is steady and I noticed that the oven temp gauge at the back looks like a thermometer, not a coil.

Rococogurl - Not to hijack this thread, but this temp averaging has grabbed my attention. Any idea if Miele does this? Who do you know does this?

moccasinlanding: here are the specs for the 30" range w/ oven dimensions: Berta 30" specshref>
Oven 23 ½" à 16 ½" à 13"
Oven Volume 2.9 ft³

and 24" Berta Specshref>
Oven 17¾" x 15" x 12½"
Oven Volume 1.9 ft

baver -- I have a Miele in our house and it does not temp average.

I don't throw names around unless I have facts. I do know that one V high-end wall oven, which is definitely not a favorite here and subject of many complaining, "don't buy" threads (not hard to guess), does temp average as I had that oven and did a buyback.

This is something that I would personally verify before buying. The consumer help folks at the various brands know whether their ovens cycle on and off in various baking/convection modes or not. Also the type of oven thermometer gauge they use in the manufacturing. It's a common source of complaints about uneven cooking and underbrowning.

Don't know which genius came up with the system but it deserves to be exposed.

Rococogurl, do you ever hear your oven burner turn on and then off during the baking cycle? Or is there an indicator on the machine that tells you when the burner/dual fuel resistance element is ignited or energized, respectively? How often does this happen when you are baking something?

Is this method of going to temp and staying right there without averaging something unique to electric ovens? Unless there is some kind of variable output heating element that only just comes on low enough to hold the temp exactly right then I cannot see how it would work. That said, it seems like for a gas oven there is no way round the averaging businesss...the burner is either on or off...no halfway. So of course it needs to overheat somewhat to allow for the cooling when the burner eventually does go off. I am interested because I am still practising getting the settings right on my new gas oven. Thank you.

Mojovean, to satisfy your curiosity about how Rococogirls oven (Might, not saying it does) work. That fancy cooktop you have probably heard me talk about before was ceramic type, not induction, It used a thing called "Thermocycling" to heat the burners. It would send burst of energy to the burner unit many times a second, as you turned the temp down it sent smaller and smaller burst again, many times a second, so the burner was not cycling on-off every few seconds, like a conventional one would, especially on a simmer setting. It could keep an exact very low simmer temp that did not vary from one second to the next as it just kept giving it the needed blips, (Many per second) or whatever was needed to keep it at the temp the user set it for. I suspect some induction units do the same, as some click on low settings and some do not. You can see how consistent yours is, by heating some water just barely to the boiling point and watching the bubbles, do they go and come, or are they consistent.
Anyway, I "suspect" similar circuitry is used in any oven that does not "average" ie the element is blipped or fed the needed energy to keep the oven at the desired setting rather than going full off,full on/ etc etc.
As an Electronic Engineer that drew my attention to that stove top along with it's semi circle design, but Alas the company went katput and so did it's keyboard.
Best Regards---busy day at Pacific Sales today but I get the taters tomorrow

Gary

Yeah, Gary. Thing is, the Bertazzoni is a gas oven, or dual fuel. How do you accomplish something like that with gas?

My guess is that the oven is just really well insulated and they are keeping the burner cycles short and quick. Or they are just using the resistance element to keep nudging the system back to the set temp.

The thing is, the only way for any system to truly maintain a constant temp would be to add energy to it at the exact same rate that it is radiating and conducting and convecting it away. Not easy to do.

But I DO see how, with a well insulated oven that does not lose heat at high rates, it would be possible to keep the hysteresis down below the noise floor.

Afraid our potato adventure is going to have to wait until after next Tuesday night, I am going down to Orange Co. for a few days and will be unable to man the speed oven. But don't let my absence stop you from speed ovening those spuds.

They could do a gas oven, that varied the flame, instead of just turning the gas burner off/on, and in fact that same company, Caldera, was coming out with a gas stove and maybe an oven that actually had electronic controls---yea a touch pad--to control the burners, so it is "Doable" just don't know if anybody has actually done it.
Orange Country that's where I am. If the weather is good, maybe we can go to lunch in my 59 Red Convertible--anyway I will send you an email with my toll free number.
Regards

Gary

I noticed the Bertazzoni oven is said to be gas with infrared broiling....but did not read anything about it being a "dual fuel" which I always think of as gas cook top and an electric oven.

Well, I went to the Homeclick site and looked at their 24" Bertazzoni range. They have a 36" and 34" gas cooktop but no longer have the 24" gas cooktop. But, the Vintage Tub & Bath site has the 24" Bertazzoni gas cooktop on sale for $639 or something like that. The price makes it very tempting. However, the Berta ranges all have a higher powered triple burner which is rated 15000 BTU, much higher than the 12000 BTU max for the cooktops.

Oh mercy me, I hope you go with the Berta range! I am really falling in love with the 24" range, now that I know the oven width will fit my Lodge pizza pan. I can see that anyone who bakes/roasts more than I do will want the 30" or 36" or even the larger models, but for us the 24" will fill the bill. The Homeclick price for the 24" Berta was in the neighborhood of $3145 I think, so the price went up from the purchase prices quoted during the last two years. Thank heaven I've stashed enough "mad money" to make the purchase outside my reno budget, and can do the rest of the kitchen for the $10000 allotted me. Since we are nibbling away at the reno with all appliances already purchased, and the water heater and range the last of the appliances, we will be able to make it I do think.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bertazzoni 24

$3145 seems high for the 24" Aj Madison has it for $2379: Berta 24" rangehref>
Also, I believe the Berta 24" comes in gas only and their 30" and up come as gas or duel fuel.

Take a look at Verona. They have two NEW 30" All gas ranges. The better unit has 18,000 BTU burners, but sealed.
Good Luck!

Whoa! Clarification needed STAT!! My gas Berta range oven is very steady and does NOT temperature average, which is why I like it. Once reached, the temperature does not move.

My Miele electric oven is equally steady. It was the previous electric oven that had the problem and why I got rid of that.

I paid less for the 30" gas this summer than the price chris quoted. Are you looking at all gas or dual fuel? I am talking about the all gas.

Heard good things about Verona some time ago but it seemed like that range was mostly sold in Texas. Someone here had one installed and it's great looking.

Yes, the 24" Berta comes in gas only. However, it mentioned at the Berta website that broiling was infrared? I think it was in the owner's PDF manual which I downloaded.

I noticed the Verona also, but felt the Berta had a more solid and substantial look to it. I like the heavy iron grates, sort of like black eye makeup.

I hope the AJMAdison folks keep the price of the Berta lower for another six months, because I thought the Homeclick price was a shocker. There is a dealer just across the state line in Mississippi, Blossman Gas, so maybe they will also be able to provide service on a Berta.

What kind of delivery speed does AJMadison have? Do they perform well? Anyone order a range from them?

If I were you I would contact Eurostoves and see what their pricing is for a 24' Berta. I haven't bought from them yet but people rave about their customer service and assistance if problems arise after purchase.

Here is a link that might be useful: Eurostoves

I just received my Fivestar 48" range today. I have to say that the quality is very good. I mainly purchased it because of it's many customizable options, open burners, Dual Fuel Convection option and superb range top BTU output. For the price, this range is out of this world. Quality looks and feels above average and everything seems solid and well built. If you're looking for a workhorse range that gets the job done at a little more than HALF the price of a Wolf or Thermador, FiveStar is an outstanding option.

Rethree--glad to hear your report. So little is out there about Fivestar and what is out there tends to be really negative.

I don't get it.

I did all my research and shopping for my kitchen (save for the cabs) online. I ordered 2 30" Fivestars and they should arrive this week. I can't understand what the big hate on them is all about. Convection oven. I am getting sealed burners w/21000btu's a burner. They all simmer. To me it was a no brainer, despite all the negativity out there...negativity that seems, imho, a result of snob buyers submission to the high end marketing schemes.

Wow, that sounds heavy and I am not even a conspiracy theorist.

But you know what I mean? Like, the Fivestar just seems like a simple, powerful restaurant range made safe for home use.

Glad to hear you don't feel it is a piece of crap based on appearance.

I'm bumping this because I would like to hear more about Five Star. It seems they are the only brand that offers open burners /dual fuel as a configuration. I too am wondering why we so rarely hear anything about Five Star.