Okay, I made AnnT.'s rye bread, and totally messed it up. I first made a batch of my regular bread, and it rose just fine. Then I made the rye bread, and I know that rye flour is low in gluten, but this stuff just never rose. I waited and waited, till I figured it had risen as much as it was going to, so I proceeded to the next step, and formed it into loaves. I knew as soon as I touched the dough, they were going to be bricks, and that's just what happened. After leaving the loaves to rise for several hours, I finally put them in the oven, and yes, they're bricks. I'll try the recipe again in a couple of weeks, to see if it happens again. For the life of me, I don't know what happened, unless I measured wrong and didn't realize it. DGS was helping me, and I could easily have gotten distracted. Sally

Yes, potentially you can reduce the time by having sour dough starter saved in the fridge and using that instead of the yeast-water-milk starter to go directly to step 2. One might need to adjust the flour and water added in step 2 or 3 depending on how the composition of your fridge starter differs from the step 1 starter. I've that on a pretty rough basis with other recipes and had it work out well. For example, I might take out my starter; feed it; and take 4 oz of this for this recipe; let it sit for a few hours to wake up; use it in step 2. 4 oz of my rye starter has about 1/4 cup water and 1/2 cup rye flour so I would add an extra 1/4 cup water and 1/2 cup less rye flour at step 2 (the 3 tbsp water plus 1/3 cup water in step 2 = about 1/2 cup). Or I might just add a couple of tbsp of my starter directly from the fridge plus water to step 2 and allow step 2 to run longer like about 24 hours to make up for starting it with sleepy starter. It sounds like a lot of time, but mostly the stuff is just sitting there - it just takes a few minutes day 1 and day 2 to do it the way this recipe says. But I like the flavor I get with my longer term starter. Also I don't always plan ahead enough for 3 days. And once you have the starter in the fridge, it might as well be used. Perhaps make it like the recipe says the first time and then play around to see what results you get.

Here ya go! From the Kitchen of Ann Straight Swedish Rye Bread Limpa (5 loaves) 2pkg dry yeast 1 cup warm H2O dissolve these three ingredients 1tsp. sugar (meanwhile) 1 cup brown sugar 1 cup whiter sugar 1tsp. salt (scant) 1/4 tsp. fennel seed 1 cup shortening (I use oleo) 1/2 c(scant) molasses 4 cups warm H2O (combine this), add yeast mixture Stir in 4 cups Rye Flour Work in 8 or more cups of white flour (I use 10 cups) The dough should be soft, but of course it should be workable Knead for 5 minutes Mix well--cover and let rise in warm place until double--- stir or punch down Dump out on lightly floured counter Divide into 5 sections---shape Place in greased pans--let rise Bake at 275 -300 degrees until done

There's probably no one single answer to your question, but here are some things to consider: 1. Exact measures (cups or weight) for flour in recipes for bread making is only a good guess. You must go by the feel of the dough and only add as much flour as is required to make a nice soft dough. Depending on the bakers' percentages (of dry to liquid) and the type of bread, it may even need to be a very well-hydrated, loose dough and "wetter is better" in that case. Wet dough = a holey texture. Because of differences in the moisture level of the flour, the differences in the protein levels of flour from one bag to another (gluten really soaks up a lot of hydration), even the differences in the amount of humidity in the air in the kitchen from one baking day to another, all influence the hydration of the dough and you may need more or less flour than the recipe calls for. I make sourdough bread and NEVER measure the flour - it's by "feel". 2. Depending on how much rye flour you are adding (it suggests 1 c. or 1/2 c., or more) the stickier your dough will be. That's a characteristic of rye flour in bread dough. If you don't know this, you may be adding more flour to compensate for the stickiness and have actually added too much flour. Dry dough = dry bread and occasionally, a "brick". It certainly won't have that nice open texture you are looking for. Expect a lot of stickiness in rye bread dough. Always err to the side of a wet dough. 3. Doubling the recipe... You may be getting different results because you haven't kneaded it enough (due to the additional bulk) to develop the gluten. It may take more kneading time. Are you doing a test, such as windowpaning (aka membrane test) to see if the gluten has developed enough during kneading? 4. Dough does NOT rise to a clock, rather to the amount and strength of the yeast, as well as the moisture and ambient temperature. I use a dough rising bucket with a tight-fitting lid on it (aka dough doubler) for accurately knowing when dough has "doubled". If you put 1-qt./1-L in a dough rising bucket, when the dough is up to the 2-qt./2-L line (there are usually graduated measurements on these plastic tubs), you know the dough has doubled. It eliminates the guess work and it's the ONLY accurate way to know how much your dough has risen. Certainly not an inacurate slant-sided bowl, nor by using the poke-it-with-your-fingers test method after playing peek-a-boo with the dough hidden under a towel. A straight-sided dough rising bucket is accurate and it holds the moisture in to prevent the dough from drying out, with the lid. If you don't cover dough properly, the air can create a skin on the dough surface and it will prevent the dough from rising properly. In this particular recipe, I suspect "double" is allowing it to rise too much. Because our flour is no longer bromated, it doesn't have the extensibility it used to have when "double" was the normal standard for how long to allow the dough to rise. You also have the addition of rye flour that has very little gluten, therefore going to "double" may actually be slightly over-proofing the dough. "Double" for a rustic loaf is also probably allowing it to rise too much. Double again for the final proofing, and you may end up with a shorter loaf due to over-proffing the dough twice. You also don't say what type of flour you are using. I'd suggest a high-protein bread flour such as King Arthur or Robin Hood, in combination with rye. If you are using all-purpose flour, you may need to add some gluten to the recipe. 5. How are you adding moisture to the oven? Because of the additional bulk in the oven (2 loaves instead of 1) you may not be getting as much oven-spring from the method you are using to add moisture. I'd suggest Christopher Kimball's method (as described in "The Cook's Bible". Place a small cast iron skillet on a separate (low) rack in the oven during pre-heating. Bring 2 cups of water to a boil. Wear thick oven mits and long sleeves to protect your arm, and pour the boiling water from a (new/clean) long-spouted watering can into the skillet. Shut the door and no peeking. If you open the door in the first 20 minutes of baking, you'll let out the steam. No spritzing necessary. The "dash of water" in the oven, and the continual spritzing method aren't enough moisture for a good amount of oven spring to the loaves. Another bad method is tossing ice cubes in the oven.... See if there is something there that makes some sense to you. Good luck! -Grainlady