First, that is wonderful news about your DD. I can hear the joy in your words, the tears of relief and happiness that are welling up in your eyes (and in mine). All of us who are parents can appreciate what a turning point this is.

As for the music teacher, she may be wonderful, and have been part of the reason your DD got started and has done well. But don't discount that your DD is the primary reason for her success - her practice, her effort, her love of the instrument and the music she can make has allowed her to grow as a musician.

This is going to sound nasty, but if this teacher were TRULY wonderful, she would recognize that she has served her purpose in your daughter's music education. She should WANT your daughter to move on, encourage it, and help the process. Otherwise, it is more about her than about your DD. My older son had a wonderful viola teacher, but when she went back to teaching full time and started a family, she simply didn't have the time anymore for private instruction. He was also ready for a more advanced teacher, and she actually introduced DS to his next teacher, made arrangements for them to contact one another, spoke with the new teacher about DS, etc. She said they would be a great match, and they were.

I think you owe it to your DD, in respect of her work and love of the instrument, to merely work on finding a new instructor. You will want to talk to people in the local orchestra programs at schools, local colleges, etc. Your daughter will likely want to have a sample lesson with a couple of these folks to test the fit. It would be nice if the current teacher could help in the search, but it sounds like that won't happen.

When you are ready to make the move, you need to meet with the current teacher, and with your DD explain that DD felt ready to move on to new challenges, and has found a new instructor. You can have DD bring along a lovely thank you note and perhaps a small gift (a pretty bud vase with fresh flowers that she can keep, etc). No apologies, because this is about your daughter's music education, not a personal rejection.

If you have an agreement or set schedule for lessons, you might also offer to pay for the remainder of the month so that the current teacher has a chance to fill the time and not lose income.

Hi Flyleft. I have no advice for you since I have never had to deal with those issues. One of my sons was always a rascal and one was always a dream child. Both turned out fine.

I am wondering how your carpal tunnel is doing? Now my 94 year old mother is having CT release on both hands in February. Glad I went first so I can advise her.

Good luck with your issues. I am so glad to hear your daughter is doing well. Sounds like she has found her voice.

So glad to hear your DD is doing well.

Re: Music teacher.
Welcome to public schooling. I'd suggest hanging in there until June but subsidize her with private lessons.

Les and ded, thanks so much for your replies. Les, you're so right with everything you said about DD's teacher. I actually read it to DD and she thinks it's the perfect way to think about it as we move ahead. We actually have another teacher in mind--she's a prominent univ. prof. in the area and DD took a camp with her last summer--DD expressed interest in studying with her and she was completely encouraging and told us to let her know if we ever wanted to go ahead with it, so that's one part of the difficulty over with already. You are always so insightful, whether it's about where a coffee table should go or how to handle touchy issues : )

ded, your fingers to the universe's ears : ). She has been feeling 'dumber and dumber' since school started, although reconnecting with *good* teaching (her teacher from last year) made her realize it's not her, it's the teaching. It's not impossible to understand math; it's just that if it's explained poorly and then tested and tested before kids are ready, they'll do badly and reinforce negative feelings about it. Kind of a lose-lose situation.

Anyway, DD said something interesting about boys yesterday. She noticed that no matter what, boys seemed to say "I get it!" even when they really didn't, and girls said "oh, I'm so dumb, I'm going to fail, I don't get it at all, I'm so stupid" and they ended up failing. You read about this, but at least I can't imagine that the behavior and contrast are really that extreme and clear-cut. Yet they are. I think she was infected, as it were, by hearing her friends say that. She's going to help them understand more clearly today, she said.

The teaching in general at this high school is so sub-par, actually destructive...and they're nothing but officious, and feeling defensive (which I can understand) because a bond measure to increase the school district budget failed to pass back in 2010. So any answer to any question seems to begin with "we're so overworked/we don't have the money for/the budget doesn't permit..." and there's virtually NO real teaching going on except in Wind Ensemble, which DD lives for. I understand that they are overworked, but the kids can't wait until more funding comes in. It's their only time to do high school, and they deserve better. It's kind of appalling to witness what passes for education here.

DD has said recently that if it weren't for her friends, she'd consider going back to homeschooling...esp. since she could pretty much start community college classes next year. She's never had such a wide circle of friends as she does now--she's definitely built a community there, and has resolved to try and do interesting things with friends, rather than sink to the lowest common denominator (24/7 boys and makeup--some boys and makeup is fine, wonderful, but it's not a complete and balanced diet : )). And she won't leave Wind Ensemble. Ugh. She has an all-city Wind Ensemble she plays in too, but she won't leave the high school one. So we've got to find a way to make this unsatisfactory school experience work for her and not kill her sense of self.

Anyway, thanks for asking about the carpal tunnel...it's in a holding pattern - it affects me sometimes (like when I'm writing, right now) or if I turn my hand in the wrong direction, or try to pick up something...I kind of dread all the painting I'm going to have to do soon. But I'm going to save the money we'd have to spend (several thousand) for a real emergency, say, like I had another heart attack or something (perish the thought). Has your mother's CT been a recent development? Or is it something that's been worsening over the years and she's finally decided to do something about it? I wish her luck and speedy recovery--it is *wonderful* that you will be able to help her through it. Is she having the same doctor do it? Is your hand pain-free now?

fly, I am so confused. Is this a teacher she had when she was hsing, who now only wants to work with hs'ers? Is your daughter staying in public school?

In any case, I agree with les-- a good teacher (good as in "still" good-- she may have been great before) would want your DD to grow. She would have even suggested moving on herself to your DD! I would say, emphasize how much of an impact she has had on your DD's life-- all the positive-- and minimize (don't discuss) why you're moving on. Keep it vague, but along the lines of, "It's not you, it's us." When we've left a piano teacher and public school, this worked. Ultimately, the teachers were worried there was something they did/didn't do and by being reassured that they were great, we left with happy faces all around.

This is sort of OT, but have you ever doubted your DD's giftedness? I used to think my DD was very smart-- no 2nd thoughts. Since she's been back in school, I really don't know and now feel sort of silly for having thought that. Her teacher doesn't give her extra challenges, and overall DD doesn't seem to care. The gifted teacher is pulling her out one-on-one for reading, but DD isn't putting that much effort into it (it seems to me). And then, there's the whole "reading at a high level doesn't mean much" idea. Is that true? On one hand, I am always surprised by what she reads. . .lately she's been reading Beowulf, Shakespeare (translated, not original language) and books about the history of the periodic table, but sometimes I wonder if she "gets" them at a deep enough level to matter. Also, someone once told me that adult books are really generally only at the 6th grade level anyway . . .not sure if that's true.

About the CT. My hand is totally pain free now except for some minor sensitivity in the scar. Mom has had it a long time but it was not diagnosed correctly by her internist. When she finally started to describe it in detail to me, I knew at once that she had CT. I am so angry with her doc for not picking up on it sooner.

No, she is going to a different hand doctor. Mine is about half an hour away and she likes to stick close to home. I actually think I like her guy better -- more experience.

My pain was relentless, so I am glad you occasionally have pain-free times.

I think there is a wise woman inside your daughter, just waiting to get out. BTW, I took flute lessons as a child. I was just awful. That is one difficult instrument -- you can't see your hands!

Great News! About getting your daughter back. Insights like the ones she's had tend to be permanent, so I suspect she's back for good ;-)

That's great that she's bringing the smart kids and social kids together. Older son's high school had a great group of 'smart and social' kids that would make any parent proud. They helped each other, and inspired each other to achieve. It's great when 'smart IS cool'.

No real advice on the music front, other than to echo what Les said. There's nothing unusual about outgrowing one teacher and being ready to move on to another -- just finding the words to say so.

On math - Has your DD ever tried Khan Academy online? I hear the lessons are fabulous! Could be just the thing to supplement a bad teacher who doesn't explain things well.

Hi golddust, anele, ded (again), and sweeby! Thank you so much for reading my post(s).

I'll answer in order of postings, probably with some overlaps..

golddust, DD has taken privately with her flute teacher for three years now--the teacher works exclusively with homeschooled kids (actually, I think we're the only non evangelical Xians in the entire group) and this year the teacher's tone has changed drastically. We love her, she didn't refuse to teach DD even though were not Xian, but now she seems like she's not willing to lift a finger to help DD advance beyond her usual ceiling.

The teacher with whom DD met yesterday was her former math teacher. DD will see her every three weeks for an infusion of serious thinking and being taken seriously by a teacher.

anele, DD is refusing to consider leaving, because of all her friends, and because Wind Ensemble is fun. I like the "it's not you, it's us" -- that DD is wanting to move on. About a year ago, the teacher kind of wrote out DD's future through high school, and she thought that DD would age out when she left for college. we'd be speeding up the process. We'll have to explain why we're not waiting until college...

and re "giftedness": Ive never said that dD is gifted per se, never had her tested, etc., because I know she isnt in the doubly-gifted category (my computer is malfuntioning right now -- could it have to do with the fact I droppedit?), so she didn't need services in that particular direction..I just thought that student-centered, small-group learning is the best way for people to learn, OUTSIDE of institutions, so I made sure she had that possibility. I really think that any kid, pretty much, could have similar outcomes when allowed to learn in freedom. The outcomes themselves are what they are. What matters to me is that the child (or person,in adult education) is challenged and feels engaged. If not, then I think there's a problem. Is your daughter bored at school? That's a situation that needs attention. You don't want her brain atrophying, or her turning her talents to less than productive ends..I know when I wasn't challenged, I ended up finding challenges for myself, like how far across the room could I pass a note before the teacher saw it? How many people could I get into a chain to pass notes? kind of things...so I was sent to private school the next year :)

ded, argh about your mom going undiagnosed : (. Does her internist know now? Does she maybe want to consider a switch of internists? (to bring the discussion back full circle? : )) Lack of diagnosing something made me finally leave a doctor who I'd felt had had no interest in me for years before. It felt GOOD to go to someone new. I'll be hoping for a good outcome like yours for your mom's.

sweeby, hey : ) YES, that's what is kind of happening with Wind Ensemble and the city Wind Ensemble/Youth Philharmonic. I LOVE to see those kids all support each other and talk about classical music with enthusiasm. They're definitely not unfashionable or dorky, either (most of them : )).

And yeah, it's the 'finding the words to say so' part that I was asking about! I have no experience in this, as my two moves from piano teachers were handled by my parents, so I never had to say anything and I don't know what got said. What would you say, to a teacher who is thinking she's got a prize student booked through high school, but the student wants to head out to greener pastures? Can you sweeby-ize the situation for me so it all comes clear? Les and anele have had such good ideas, the bar is pretty high : )

And re Khan Academy -- I've suggested it to her, and she's tried it a few times, but I don't think it has clicked with her, at least yet. I've heard good things about it too. The former teacher is the ticket, I think. I meant my little joke about her tutoring being therapy -- of course we can't get it covered : ), but oh well. The results are so amazing.

I don't know if I already shared this quote with you but reading your good news made me think of it. It's from the book Frangipani by Celestine Vaite:
foster this new strong woman because being a strong woman is a blessing, not a curse

When I read a line that really speaks to me, I jot it down and save it for later. At the time I was reading that book, and that line struck me as worthwhile, a friend was going through the terrible teen years with her daughter. It seemed like a nice reminder that although this moment is hard, the end result - a strong, independent thinker - is so worthwhile and must be nurtured. Easy for me to say from the peace & safety of my kid-free household.

I'm happy to read that your new, strong woman is finding her equilibrium at school.

I want to put that on a bumper sticker, hhireno! I had typed out a long sad corollary story to that sticker, something DD and I witnessed in the Xian music group, but I've cut it in order to focus on the positive.

Anyway, back to your great quote: I have tried to take it and other things folks said back in the fall to heart, and most of the time I've been able to pull back from the abyss when DD's behavior is veering in that direction, thanks to those thoughts.

Happy corollary story: DD was having one of Those Days a few days ago, before I went out shopping, and at TJ's one of our friend-cashiers there asked how I was doing, and I said "She's 14. That pretty much says it all." And the cashier who was ringing us up, a young woman (not the person who asked), said "Oh my gosh, my heart goes out to you. I said some things to my mom at that age that...I don't think kids know how hurtful they're being...but I realize it now." I complimented her on her amazing ability to reflect truthfully -- rather a challenge for any of us, I think -- and asked her what she's doing about it. She replied, "I've apologized and I'm trying to make it up to her. I think we have a pretty good relationship now, but when I think back...wow." Wow is right -- what a fabulous young woman. I only wish DD had been there to hear it, but then again maybe the cashier wouldn't have said it. I take it as a sign to hold on and wait, because There's Got To Be A Morning After : )

What do you mean she is not in the doubly-gifted category? Not sure what that means. :) I don't think you need to have her tested, but I definitely think she is gifted. I do think the right environment can bring it out, but it can't MAKE you gifted.

My own DD is not bored at school. Or, she is sometimes, but she can deal with it, unlike before. I am very happy about that, but at the same time, it makes me think her needs are not nearly as different as those of her peers, you know?

Anyway, I bet you and your DD (or YOU!) will worry way more about the teacher's reaction and feelings than the teacher herself. I am guessing she recognizes your DD's talents and wants to be there for her (hence the plan) but has too many commitments to pull through. I can relate to that! Ultimately, you know you are doing the right thing for your DD and her needs always come first. The adults in her life will just have to deal with it!

I love Khan Academy. I've used it w/2 of my daughters for science and math. They like to listen to him!

"Doubly gifted" means being high-iq *and* somewhere on the autism spectrum, usually, or ADD/ADHD, or highly sensitive/sensory-integration issues, something like that. She doesn't have that issue, and we weren't going for a TAG program, so I never saw the need for her to undergo testing. As long as your DD isn't bored, and is learning and getting exposed to lots of possibilities, that's great, IMO. I think if DD had been in mainstream PS her whole life she probably would have ended up being tested for TAG and being moved into that group to keep her from turning into her mother at that age : ), but the TAG program also comes with stigma here, so I'm glad she avoided that.

I appreciate the support about the change of teacher. You're completely right--I often use the frame of "whose play is it?" and in this case, it's DD's play, *she's* the protagonist, not her teacher. I just hate knowing we'll be disappointing her and I guess if we do it with good faith and sincerity, that's about all we can do. She's going to take it however she takes it. we're always going to give her credit for starting DD so beautifully with such good heart and technique.

Cool that Khan Academy is working for you all--it's such an amazing thing. I think if I were younger and learning those topics I'd be on it constantly.

Oh-- I always heard "doubly gifted" referred to as "twice exceptional." :)

Yeah, my DD was on your path, which is why we skipped her (which she hated) and then started homeschooling. Now I feel she goes to school for non-academic reasons overall and has seen the downside to hs'ing. HSing is not a good option for us now at all-- since the balance in our family is heavily on the side of the little ones, it becomes all about them. Hard to meet the needs of my oldest.

RE: disappointing the teacher-- there is a quote I think of in cases like this. "I can't give you the definition for success, but I can give you the one for failure: try to please everyone." And, you never know-- she might feel that your DD is a responsibility (because she is talented) and feel sort of a relief of the burden, if that makes sense.

Yep, same thing (doubly/twice).

And we've only had one, so we haven't had to think about other kids. The family always comes first.

And I love that quote too. Thank you for it. I can definitely see the teacher thinking DD might be a bit of a burden, because the teacher is ill frequently and has to cancel, and taking energy to find out what DD can qualify for, or try out for, etc., is all just for that one kid, not the rest of her student roster. That's a very good point.

Y'all have been most helpful--love to you as always : ) and I"ll keep you updated.

This is a great thread. I'm a teacher (though I only do long-term sub jobs right now), and also GT certified and trained. I've also raised two children, one of whom passed all the GT tests as a kindergartner and is now in college. My other child passed a few of the GT tests as a third-grader, but honestly I don't see her as 'gifted.' Part of the problem is that this school district includes achievement tests in the battery of GT tests, which is completely inappropriate, but there it is. And she is an extremely hard-working kid. Anyway, I've always been hugely interested in GT education and absolutely LOVE working with these students. But I'd like to let you in on a couple of dirty little secrets....

The first secret is that there are many teachers, even GT-certified who don't LOVE teaching these kids. In fact, they often appear (to me) to be defensive and ready to shoot down these kids at every opportunity. I think it is difficult for a parent to truly realize this because they aren't in the classroom. But I have witnessed it over and over again.... It's heartbreaking, and I try to intercede when I can, but that isn't always possible.

The second 'secret' is about teachers being expected to differentiate instruction for all the levels in the room. It's a joke. Not because the teacher doesn't try. It's just a ludicrous system. It is politically incorrect to group students by ability, and no longer allowed anywhere that I've found. So a typical classroom has students with IQs below 70 and students with IQs above 125, occasionally very far above. Imagine you are trying to teach 25 children something -let's say .... how to knit. Some of your students have been knitting for four years, and some could not tell you what a knitting needle looks like. While you are trying to figure out how to group them, four boys have grabbed needles and are trying to stab each other, two more have grabbed your balls of yarn and tossed them to each other, which has caused them to unravel of course. The girls are yelling at the boys to stop it. Some are crying because they really, really want to learn how to knit. So you finally bring order to the chaos, and figure you can divide them into three groups, which does not truly correlate to the levels in the room, but is the best you can do. You truly need the entire time with each one of the groups. But you only have 1/3 of the time with each of course. And what do you suppose the other two groups are doing while you are working with one? You have given them some books about knitting to keep them occupied, but they are old and have only black and white photos so that isn't terribly successful. So you start with the least experienced group because they need the most time. After you spend ten minutes with the first group, you will barely have begun your session with the second group before a few students from the first group come running over with problems. And then that happens again. So the second group's instruction takes twice as long as it should because of the interruptions. And since the third group's time was used for the second group, suddenly, there's the bell! Guess which group didn't get attended to AGAIN?!?!?

You may remember that I was fairly strong-minded in the original post on this subject -and felt you needed to think about removing your daughter from a toxic environment. If she wants to be at this school and the good outweighs the bad, okay. But from the sounds of it, her educational needs are not being met. Which might be okay if you or she are supplementing them at home. The way I see it, there are two types of needs for these kids. The first set of needs is what she needs to get into a college where she will hopefully truly have her abilities matched to her environment. And the second set of needs is what she needs to feed her hungry brain. The first set of needs could be covered in one year rather than four for most of these kids. When the information is drawn out over four years, boredom and frustration set in, and many GT kids simply begin to tune out. Some lose all of their enthusiasm and interest in learning and begin to fail. And then they can't get into the colleges where they might truly flourish for the first time. As I used to tell my son, don't kid yourself -there are some extremely bright people who never made it to college. There is a whole group of gifted dropouts, mostly boys, who didn't get the first set of needs met.

And Anele -it sounds to me as if your daughter IS gifted. The sheer fact that she is interested in reading what you describe is a give away.

I hope I haven't offended any one here -I am passionate about the short shrift these very top students are getting in the K-12 system, all over the nation. It is a huge loss to them, and a huge loss to our country. It's mind-boggling to me that we put forth so much time, money and energy to the first-string on the football team, but not to the academic team.

Okay, stepping down off the soapbox now....