I can't recall ever having seen the final mark being placed outside the comma or period -- either a single mark as in 'Nearly Wild', or a double mark as in the case of a foundling such as "Romaggi Plot Bourbon". I would find it interesting to know where you have seen the marks placed outside the comma/period, the approximate date of the publication and the location of the publisher.

At the moment, I happen to have at hand the fairly recent TEA ROSES -- OLD ROSES FOR WARM GARDENS, a book that is admirable for many reasons, including the fact that it is meticulously edited. For what it's worth, the Australian authors invariably place the quotation marks enclosing rose names inside the comma/period.

Thomas Christopher uses the following form in his "In Search of Lost Roses." See page 1.

In my garden there are roses with wonderfully evocative names: 'Queen Victoria,' "Giant of Battles," "Pearl of Gold," "Rose of the King," 'Baroness Rothschild,' 'Marchioness of Lorne.'

Roy Shepherd in "History of the Rose" uses italics.

Gertrude Jekyll in "Wood and Garden" uses nothing. See for example, p. 80: "Two other Roses of free growth are also great favourites - Madame Alfred Carriere, with long-stalked loose white flowers, and Emilie Plantier."

Katherine S. White, past editor of "The New Yorker," uses no punctuation at all to refer to rose varieties in her "Onward and Upward in the Garden."

See for example, page 73: "For years we had growing here that favorite of our parents, a Frau Karl Druschki, a white hybrid perpetual without any scent at all."

Perhaps she read Gertrude Jekyll and followed her example.

Peter Harkness in his "The Rose - An Illustrated History" uses the following form: 'Lady Hillingdon',

Mary McMurtrie in "Scots Roses" uses the following form: 'Nana',

Charles Quest-Ritson in his "Climbing Roses of the World" uses the following form: 'Coolidge'.

Stephen Scanniello in his "A Year of Roses" uses the following form: 'Old Red Moss',

The European grammar rules add ending punctuation outside of quotation marks, both single and double.

American grammar rules add ending punctuation inside of quotation marks, both single and double.

I finally resolved the difference Carol refers to in my own mind by realizing that those who are heavily influenced by European authors or writing styles use the ending punctuation as used by European rose authors. Those who are more heavily influenced by the punctuation rules of the United States do not.

I once had a conversation with a European friend about this as he thought my ending punctuation to be incorrect, as his method is what he has grown up with and sees in the books he reads. I am more influenced by the grammar rules I learned as a child so I punctuate as Carol and Thomas Christopher do.

Sometimes when feeling quite Gertrude Jekyll-ish, I use nothing at all. Shame on me.

Gean

This post was edited by harborrose on Thu, Jun 13, 13 at 10:19

The non-botanical practice in British and Commonwealth publications is to place the comma or period outside of QMs, while American practice is to place them inside. The question--which has occurred to me as well--is whether those practices apply to botanical nomenclature, which has its own set of typographical conventions. Based on a quick look at a couple of US-based scholarly articles, they seem to put the comma/period outside the single QM with cultivar names.

If you are having something actually published, the publisher will tell you which way to do it, and you will have no choice. Either they won't accept your ms. for publication if you refuse to use their method, or they will simply assign a lowly editor to go through and "correct" all your punctuation according to their criteria.

What that means is that if your publisher is British, you will probably have to put all punctuation outside of single or double quote marks.

Since I am American and have been educated in America, I don't worry about it--I just do it the American way --like I spell "color" that way rather than as "colour." But I have had a British publisher on occasion and I had to change all my punctuation for them--though they didn't object to my Americanized spellings, interestingly enough.

Kate

I've often wondered this myself!

I learned that marks of punctuation go inside quotation marks. BUT it has always looked odd to do that with the names of roses, and it now makes sense to me that we don't with botanical names, as Michael notes. After all, we're not quoting anything when we write the name of a rose, so why wouldn't the rules be different?

Personally, though, I like the no quotes method myself. Capital letters seem enough to me.

Single quotes are actually a part of the official cultivar name, so must always be within punctuation, regardless of country of use or any other consideration. There are no exceptions. Double quotes (used around found roses or other unregistered, "unofficial" names) are used as they are normally in the country of use, so as mentioned above, that varies a bit from the UK to the USA.

Don't worry about it. With the education kids are receiving today and with twitter and texting, etc., in a few years no one will know or care, except us old fogies--oops, that may not include some of you--I'm pretty well shocked these days with the errors in newspapers and magazines, and even more shocked by what I see in books. Apparently, proof reading has gone by the wayside due to expense. Our local paper actually announced that it would no longer be proof read due to costs and time constraints and, boy, does it show.

Thanks, Malcolm. Outside it is, then.

Now, Kate, since British typography calls for quotes within quotes to use double quotation marks inside single ones, opposite to our practice, how do they want you to punctuate a quotation that contains a cultivar name?

I am glad to have an answer as well. But still, Dr. Welch's "Antique Roses for the South" and Henry Mitchell's "The Essential Earthman" both use the "inside punctuation." That doesn't make it right, of course, but does show the extent of the confusion. Editors aside, I would think Dr. Welch would know what is in his book.

Considering that grammar 'experts' use different rules according to what type of material they are publishing -- one example is the APA Style Manual, a guide for publishing in the behavioral and social sciences; another example is the AP style manual that journalists use -- I think we should use whatever makes sense to us.

Working in a university as I do, we have some interesting discussions about which to use in our official University publications - the journalism-trained people against those trained in academia. Our president is our decider as to what our official style will be and luckily, that's the style I prefer.

I like what the English Forum says about this issue:
"In American usage printers usually place a period or comma inside closing quotation marks whether it belongs logically to the quoted matter or to the whole sentence or context.... But when a logical or exact distinction is desired in specialized work in which clarity is more important than usual (as in this dictionary), a period or comma can be placed outside quotation marks when it belongs not in the quoted matter but to a larger unit containing the quoted matter. The package is labeled 'Handle with Care'."

To me this includes such things as official cultivar names, and as Dr. Manner said, "Single quotes are actually a part of the official cultivar name, so must always be within punctuation, regardless of country of use or any other consideration. There are no exceptions."

I haven't responded, but I'm following the conversation and gathering information. I appreciate all the thoughtful replies up to this point.

Carol

Now, Kate, since British typography calls for quotes within quotes to use double quotation marks inside single ones, opposite to our practice, how do they want you to punctuate a quotation that contains a cultivar name?

Good question, michaelg. If I ever find out the answer, I'll let you know. : )

My advice, in the meantime, is to re-write the sentence to avoid the problem--or trust their editor to fix it up according to their preferred style--they won't refuse a ms. needing only a few fix-ups.

Kate

Thank you for your help in unraveling, or at least in acquiring more info regarding, the rose cultivar/quotation marks mystery. Bless the editors! I won't trade places with them!

Carol