Are you using bread machine yeast? That sometimes can make a difference.

Whole wheat bread generally is a little denser than bread made with refined white flour, but you should be getting some rise even with 100% whole wheat flour. You might try 'cheating' and adding a little vital wheat gluten to the mix.

My B machine has a setting for this but if yours doesn't this is what you do.

Let the machine go thru the first and second knead cycle. When the second knead finishes and before it rises again, take it out and shape into whatever you want, cover and let it rise the second time. Bake as usual.

So I can use the dough cycle for WW bread? I got out my manual and was reading that but wasn't quite sure if that was fine for WW dough since it's so heavy.

Any deviation from the recipes that are in the owners manual result in flat, unrisen bread. Tried some wheat gluten and got a flat loaf. I use the quick rise Red Star yeast in those owners manual recipes with risen bread...other recipes(from sources other than manual) I use the same yeast resulting in non-rising bread. I'm thinking this machine is so particular that if I want to experiment with other recipes, I will have to do it outside the machine? It's getting really frustrating wasting so much money on flops. I alway put the ingredients in the order called for in owners manual and put yeast in a hole in the flour away from other ingredients. The recipe for WW bread from the manual is just so tasteless and crumbly...I really don't care for it at all though it sure looks pretty...HA!

I don't know your machine specifically, Arkansas girl, but I'd be willing to bet that something about the "express" in the name is the key to your problem. Try carefully comparing a recipe from the manual to another from a different bread machine book. You may discover that the manual recipe uses more yeast or calls for the ingredients to be put in in a different order or something.

Have you tried any recipes other than whole wheat? Especially as you are trying to learn the machine, a plain ole' white bread recipe would be cheaper and, perhaps, more prone to rise. And you could also play with the recipe that does rise but tastes flat. Salt, likely, will improve the taste, and Grainlady and some of the other bakers can tell you what to try to correct the crumbliness.

Good luck!

Can you clarify a bit? Regarding the problematic doughs -- do they not rise at all? You've checked them during the rise cycle and found no evidence of rising? Or do they collapse in upon themselves during the baking cycle and the result is a flat brick of baked bread?

The reason I ask is that I have used the "Bread Lover's Bread Machine" cookbook too, and I've had some problems with the recipes. They're tasty but often overproof in the machine and then the top collapses during baking. This is a known complaint about the cookbook. Many reviewers think Beth Hensberger's recipes call for too much yeast and automatically reduce the amount.

Bread machines do their own thing -- they follow their own pre-set timing schedules. So there's always the danger of the dough rising too much in the machine. Then the heat from the bake cycle creates "oven spring" and the dough expands too much and implodes, so to speak. When the dough rises on its own outside the machine, you can usually catch it if it's close to overproofing and quickly get it in the oven.

Using a machine for dough only is easy as Arley pointed out. My two machines have settings for dough only, but it's easy enough to just grab the dough after the kneading has finished. The dough settings do allow a first rise. Then I take the risen dough out, shape it for a second rise, and finally bake in the oven.

One other thought: are you checking the dough during the kneading cycle? I've got a Zojirushi and a Panasonic and check during the kneading cycles on both -- even with recipes I've used before. There are so many variables in baking bread, whether manually or by machine. You can't just dump the ingredients and walk away. So I lift the top and feel the dough while it's kneading -- about five minutes into the kneading cycle. It may be too wet and I'll need to sprinkle a couple of teaspoons of flour on it. I set a timer, let it knead for an additional 2-3 minutes and check again. It may be too dry and crumbly. In that case, I'll sprinkle a couple of teaspoons of water on top. And then check again in a couple of minutes. I keep checking until the dough is a good consistency.

Bread machines don't bake overly soft doughs well. The soft dough doesn't have the structure and the wetter doughs can collapse during the baking cycle. Since you've successfully used the same yeast twice in the manual's recipes, my guess is that the yeast is OK. Something else is causing the problem. My guess is that the bread is overproofing in the machine. So you may need to cut the amount of yeast used and make sure the dough is not too wet (or soft) before allowing it to go onto the rising cycle.

If you peek during the rising cycle and see that the dough is almost to the top of the machine, you might want to yank the dough, shape it, let is rise again, and bake it in the oven. You caught it before it had a chance to collapse in on itself.

In regards to the "express" bake question, the machine offers an express option but I have never used it. It has all sorts of settings including Gluten free and whole wheat.

I have successfully baked WW and French bread from the manual that were both good(as far as shape and rise). I have never experienced the over rising problem though. The loaves that don't rise just don't seem to ever rise though I had just used the yeast and got a good loaf just a couple days earlier. Has a long date etc.

I'm not a skilled enough bread maker to know if the dough is OK, this is really my first attempt at bread making. I just thought a bread machine would be easier..HAHAHAHA...NOT! :( I do look in on it as it's making and don't notice anything off other than it's not rising. It appears to be kneading evenly.

It just seems like there are so many possibilities it could be that it kind of just leaves me disillusioned and scratching my head. HA!

I always use the order called for in the manual which is all liquids, the dry and put the yeast in an indention on the flour. I'm wondering if there's a trick to where the salt needs to go? Maybe that could be...seems like I saw someone one time recommend that the salt be off by itself. My last flop, I put the sugar and salt on top of eachother...could that be it?

I don't think mixing the sugar and salt together are a problem, but salt needs to be separate from the yeast. I typically mix my yeast with a little of the liquid from the recipe (milk or water), add a teaspoon of sugar or honey in the recipe, and give it 10 minutes just to make sure it is active. Once you've mixed the dry ingredients together (including the salt), it should be fine to dump in the yeast, milk, eggs, if that's what your recipe calls for. (I've also discovered I like my bread a little sweet, so those that don't have at least 1/3 cup aren't enough for me to like the taste.)

I'm one of those who only lets my machine knead the dough. I then take it out and put in my (100 degree) oven to proof. (That way it doesn't fall all over the bread machine if it gets away from me before I get back to it.)

100% Whole Wheat bread is hard to make with a texture that makes you want to eat it. Typically, I prefer to mix half whole wheat flour with bread flour, which makes a better tasting loaf for me with the texture I'm after.

Good luck. I hope you figure it out. That would frustrate me too!

I found these reviews on Amazon for Oster Expressbake machines. The 5838 had a lot of reviewers who experienced just what you're talking about. (Click on the 301 reviews and then click on the 1 star only reviews.)

Regarding the yeast and salt business, it really is only important to separate them if you're leaving the ingredients next to each other for several hours. Most breadmakers get the kneading going within 30-40 minutes. I don't think that is an issue.

If the dough rises sometimes and doesn't rise other times -- well, that's a puzzlement. But as I said earlier, it seems to be a common problem for owners of the 5838. I realize that is not any comfort at all. I truly sympathize with your frustration.

Oster 5838 Express Bake

Here is a link that might be useful: Oster CKSTBRTW20 Express Bake

I have the Oster CKSTBR9050 model.

Well on the bright side, I made homemade pizza dough and it was very DEELISH!!!!! :) I think my next attempt will be to knead the bread dough and bake in the oven.

I don't have that model or brand, I have a Zojirushi, and it has a "dough" cycle. I put in all the liquid ingredients, then add the dry ones. I make two little "rooms" on top of the dry ingredients for yeast and salt and I push the button.

It preheats, then it kneads. It stops, rises, kneads again. It rises one last time. I take it out, shape it into loaves or buns or whatever, let it rise on the sheets or in the pans and then bake.

I never use recipes from the manual or from a bread machine cookbook, I use whatever recipes I like, liquid first in the machine, then dry.

I use bulk yeast from Sam's Club that I store in the refrigerator. Instant yeast, rapid rise yeast and bread machine yeast are all similar. Active dry yeast works better if dissolved in water, it needs to dissolve completely. The stuff I use is "instant" yeast.

I don't use any different settings or techniques to make whole wheat dough than I do for pizza dough or french bread or whatever, and it all works.

I don't know if any of this helps at all, but good luck!

Annie

Thanks Annie, that's all good info! Helps whole bunches! :) I've pretty much decided that even the good bread that this machine makes isn't good so I may as well take advantage of it's kneading capabilities and just use the my oven for the baking part. Now I need a tasty whole wheat recipe. Does that exist? One that can be eaten in sandwich form.

Do you want 100% whole wheat or will a mix of white and wheat do?

I have a honey wheat recipe, it's Elery's favorite, makes great sandwiches and the honey in it makes it a favorite of the kids too. I've made it with all whole wheat and with a mix of whole wheat and King Arthur's white whole wheat, both were fine but we like it best about half white (I use King Arthur all purpose) and half wheat, which is 3 cups of each.

Last week I replaced half a cup of the water with a half cup of orange juice and it was really nice. I think the next time I'll some orange zest, the flavor was a nice complement.

If I made it with all whole wheat and wanted a lighter sandwich type bread, I think I'd add some vital wheat gluten to help it a bit.

HONEY WHOLE WHEAT BREAD
INGREDIENTS:
� 3-1/2 to 4 cups all purpose flour
� 2-1/2 cups whole wheat flour
� 2 pkg. active dry yeast
� 2 tsp. salt
� 1 cup milk
� 1 cup water
� 1/2 cup honey
� 3 Tbsp. oil
� 1 egg
PREPARATION:
In large bowl, combine 2 cups all-purpose flour, 1 cup whole wheat flour, the yeast, and salt and mix well.
In saucepan, heat milk, water, honey, and oil until a thermometer reads 120-130 degrees F (warm)
Add liquid mixture to flour mixture and stir to combine. Beat this batter for 3 minutes. Then, gradually stir in rest of whole wheat flour and enough remaining all-purpose four to form a firm dough.
Sprinkle work surface with flour and knead dough, adding more flour if necessary, for 5-8 minutes until smooth and satiny. Place dough in a greased bowl, turning the dough in the bowl to grease the top. Cover and let rise in a warm place about 1 hour, until double in bulk.
Punch down dough and divide into 2 pieces. On lightly floured surface, roll or press each piece of dough to a 14x7" rectangle. Starting with shorter side, roll up tightly, pressing dough into roll with each turn. Pinch edges and ends to seal and place dough, seam-side down, into greased 9x5" bread pans, making sure short ends of bread are snugly fitted against the sides of the pans. Cover and let rise in warm place until the dough fills the corners of the pans and is double in bulk, 30-40 minutes.
Bake in preheated 375 degree oven for 35-40 minutes, until bread is golden brown. Remove from pans and cool on wire racks. I like to brush the bread with butter when it's still hot from the oven for a softer crust.

Annie

arkansas_girl I have bad rising problems too. Upon watching my machine... well, not watching the whole time, but checking it often, I found out my dough rises just fine. It's just held to long in the risen state, then it collapses before the baking process starts.

I gave up on my machines. Yes, plural! I got another one when I started having the problems.

Moni

Moni, I don't think that's the problem, I never caught it over rising but I suppose it could have done it when I wasn't looking! :)

Thank you for the recipe Annie, you mentioned in the other post that you buy the instant yeast...I'm assuming instant is OK since that's what I have on hand? Recipe lists active dry. Also, could I put these ingredients in the bread machine on dough and do it that way? Or is this just best to do all by hand? It doesn't really sound too hard to do by hand.

You know, I have a cousin that can make all sorts of wonderful yeast dough pastries and such but cannot get her bread machine to work right either...it makes hockey pucks/bricks like mine...HA!

If you don't have an infrared thermometer:

Let the machine go thru knead cycle, and put water into the basket (pan) and let it go thru rise cycle and measure the water temperature.

It is possible that the thermostatic control or the firmware programing for the rise cycle is defective and works intermittantly, and the temperature is either too high or too low.

dcarch

arkansas girl, I looked up your specific machine on Amazon and the reviews were great. However, that doesn't always mean anything. I get frustrated reading all the great reviews about the Zojirushi when I am unhappy with its baking abilities. It's great for kneading, and that's what I use it for.

But after reading the reviews of the 5838 model, my guess is that you are having similar problems. If you can use it just for kneading, that would be great.

I mostly let my dough also rise in the Zojirushi according to its timed cycle. But sometimes, the dough might rise too fast and get close to the top. That's when I pull it out of the machine early and shape it for the 2nd rise and baking. I've also discovered that the rise temperature in the machine is too warm for sourdough, so I always pull the dough after the kneading and let it rise slowly in a dough bucket.

I use Annie's whole wheat bread often and substitute at least 1/4-1/2 cup orange juice for the water. It makes a nice light and tasty bread, and it's also great for dinner rolls and sandwich buns. Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Oster CKSTBR9050 model

Arkansas girl, I alway do that dough in my machine on the dough cycle. I have some pretty severe carpal tunnel issues and cannot knead bread, it just hurts too much. So ALL of my bread gets kneaded in the machine, from that honey wheat to plain white to the Princess' Friesan bread. All buns, cinnamon rolls, pizza doughs, ciabatta, everything gets kneaded by the machine, so go for it, it works just fine.

As for the yeast, the only thing I use in the instant because I buy 2 lb. packages at Sam's Club, it's less than $5 for 2 lbs. I put half in my refrigerator in a quart canning jar and the other half stays in the freezer until I need it. Since I bake all my bread, I never buy any, I go through yeast fast enough that I've never had any get too old to work and I use the same instant yeast for everything that calls for yeast. It pretty much always works.

I never bake in the machine, though, I don't like the crust. It seems more "steamed" than baked, so I bake in the oven.

Annie

Thanks for everyone's help! Right now I'm sick with a stinkin' cold so I'm not much in the baking mood...I'll try and remember to update when I try the honey wheat recipe.

I did find the model on Amazon but it only had 5 reviews so far. For some reason, Kohl's had this model marked way down to like $16 then I had a coupon so I ended up getting it for almost nothing. When I made the first loaf from the manual and it looked great I was excited but made the mistake of fixing sandwiches with that bread but the bread was not very tasty(dry and crumbly)! UGH!

Thanks Again!