KitchenAid's dishwasher dimensions are not a problem, unless: (1) you want it to be paneled, and/or (2) you're very particular that the DW not stick out from the cabinets.

It will stick out a little bit (in relation to cabinets), but it doesn't matter (unless either 1 or 2 above apply to you).

med22 and chac mool......hmmm...sticks out slightly.....I'd love to see a picture of a dishwasher in a similar situation to mine.....that is, no panel and not recessed.....to see exactly what it looks like and how far it sticks out.

The reason I'm SO concerned about this is that my dishwasher will be to the left of the sink exactly where I'll need to stand when I'm working........cutting veggies, etc.....next to the sink. I'm wondering if the handle will get in the way of my ability to stand there comfortably.

Plus, I'm not quite sure if I'd even like the looks of the integrated controls of the dishwasher peeking out from under the countertop. I mean, the whole point is that they're supposed to be concealed, right?

Please....if someone has pictures, can you help me visualize this? Thanks so much!

Slide all the cabinets forward to align them with the largest item, the KA dw. You then get to have a deeper countertop. How you will fasten the cabinets to the wall is another challenge, but minor. This is all documented in other threads here and elsewhere.

So sorry to read that this comes as a surprise to you now. KA and your salesperson were not upfront with you. On the other hand, you were aware of this. Quote ".... looked at the specs ... measurements show the depth as 24 and 1/2", without the handle. ...."

Yes, KA dw do take more space. They are bigger than some other DWs. The reason why units of measure were invented at the beginning of civilization is so that this kind of problem could be avoided.

The specs and the calls to KA technical support will tell you first hand what you need to know.

davidro1.....your idea is a good one, but I don't think we're going to be able to slide the cabinets forward. We have a U-shaped configuration with 2 corner lazy-susans. There MAY be just a smidge of wiggle room because the walls aren't completely square. We'll see when they deliver the cabinets. It would be wonderful if we could move the cabinets out a tad, gaining more countertop space. That would allow me more room for the faucets behind the sink, because we also plan to have tip-outs in front.

I've gotten my head around the measurement thing....I now understand that the KA is a bigger unit. (Although you're right.....the several salespeople we talked to said that all dishwashers are 24" standard).

So now the thing I'd love to know is.....what will it actually look like to stick out a bit from underneath the counter, and how much will the handle sticking out encroach on my ability to stand at the counter and do food prep? I can't get a feel for that.

Hopefully someone who has it installed will see this post and give me their feedback. Thanks for your input!

A larger counter overhang is good for many reasons. I thought I was getting a huge overhang when I ordered it to be 2.5" from the edge of the base cabinets. After adding the drawer fronts and handles, it turns out it's just a bit more than what I consider the absolute minimum acceptable overhang. I wanted a huge overhang in front so that I could lean on it AND have room for knees underneath. Like in a bar. I see no advantage to the minimalist overhang that "looks good" in photoshopped images in magazines and web sites.

davidro1....another good point. When we go to order our granite countertops (or whatever we decide on), I'll ask them about this idea. I have to be careful though. We're down-sizing to a small house. The kitchen is a U-shape, and there is only 5' between both sides of the cabinets. I don't want to encroach on that space too much.

But having said that, a deeper countertop still may be the solution. Thanks for the idea.

I have the KUDE60 in standard depth 24'' cabinets. My granite overhangs the cabinet face by 1 3/4''. Note that I have overlay doors, not inset, because this will make a difference too. The front of the DW sits 1/4'' behind the front of the doors and drawers. My control panel is well-hidden under the countertop. The handle protrudes 1 1/4'' beyond the edge of the granite. My DW is in my main prep area and the handle doesn't bother me at all.

fiddleddd if it's not going to take a panel itself, the DW "... will stick out 1/2" beyond the cabinets, which are ... 24" ..." And this is fine, because the drawer fronts take 5/8" or 3/4" thickness. It will all line up perfectly.

It won't if your DW needs to be paneled (I don't know if 24.5" depth is for the paneled version btw.).

An aisle 42" wide is good. A bit more is OK. A body can transfer things from one aisle to another easily. It's one big step. If the aisle is a lot larger, it takes more steps every time. You have to transfer your weight etc.

With 60" available space, you can make the aisle a few inches smaller by getting more overhang. Nothing is lost in the back of the shallow drawers if you have full extension slides. The granite guys will be glad to say whatever you want sir we will cut. Don't ask them what they think is good looks good or is what everyone else does.

hth

warmfridge.....we also have full frame overlay cabinet doors, so you're right...that should help. If mine can look like yours, I'd be quite happy. It's nice to know that the handle doesn't bother you while you're standing there. I'm really counting on that handle to use as a towel rack. :-) Now....just our of curiosity, how do you like your dishwasher by now? Thanks for enclosing the pictures......very helpful!

davidro1.....my understanding is that the 24.5" measurement is just the dishwasher proper. And yes, we do have full extension glides, and I can't WAIT!!!! I've never had them before. And I'm looking forward to my small, compact, well thought-out kitchen. It's much smaller than my existing kitchen in my big house, but my big kitchen is not very efficiently designed. The luxury of gutting our new house is allowing us to design things the way that fit our life style, and if we do our job right, I don't think we're going to mind the small house. I'll be sure to get plenty of overhang on my countertops though....thanks!

You're welcome, Fiddle. I've had my DW since March and I've been very happy with it. It cleans the dishes well and it's as quiet as my previous Miele Optima. There's a lot of room for big pots and bowls. I know there are a number of other GWer's with this DW who are happy with it as well.

warmfridge.....yes, I've read good things about the KA too. There have been a few people say negative things, but most of the negative remarks were in regard to the vent on the top. Some say their countertops have been ruined, which I don't understand because the vent is supposed to stay closed until the heat dissipates.

Also, the culinary rack doesn't seem quite as well designed as the Miele, but there are at least are other options for the silverware down below.

I went to the KA website, and they have a bunch of slightly new models out now. I'm almost sure none of them have the vent on the top.....I think it's now on the side, which concerns me. I think it would be much better for the vent to be on top so it hits the countertop rather than to the side where it hits the cabinetry. I have some more research to do. And then of course, the new models are also more expensive. :-)

BTW, your kitchen looks really nice. I love that pull-out drawer to the left of the dishwasher.....looks like it's for cutting boards. I'd love to have something like that near the sink. Oh well.....can't have everything! :-)

Thanks, Fiddle. Yes, that top pullout holds cutting boards and there is a bin in the back for food processor disks. The bottom pullout holds cookie sheets. My sink is just to the right of the DW so this is my prep area.

I think if you actually go to an appliance store, you will find KUDE60's and 70's. So maybe you can still buy one with the vent on top...I agree it's better to vent towards your granite than your cabinets.

Not everyone has or wants granite counters. I would not buy a DW that vents to the top.

The vent on the new KUDE70FXSS is on the bottom, and the vent stays closed for 4 hours after the cycle is over. I emailed KA and asked them about it since I was looking at the KUDE70FVSS and now just found out it's discontinued, and the new one they are selling is the KUDE70FXSS. I was concerned about how the venting system works because the new model has a new feature called "ProDry". in the use and care guide for it, it states: Uses the heating element to heat air, plus a system of vents and a fan that ventilates moist air out of the dishwasher to speed drying times.ProDry™ option defaults to ON when any cycle is selected except for 1 Hour Wash."

so I asked them, do the vents stay closed for 4 hours still? how many vents are there, and where are they located? is the KUDE70FXSS the only model that includes the proDry feature?

Their reply was-
"The ProDry option is a one-touch, selectable option that utilizes a convection fan and the recessed heating element as part of the dedicated drying system to ensure dry dishes at the end of every cycle. The moist interior air is vented out the bottom of the door, and forward into the kitchen where it won't damage cabinetry or flooring. The information we have available on this new feature is that the vent remains closed for approximately 4 hours. The KUDE60 models also have this feature."

I hope that helps some :o) I've been emailing them quite a bit lately LOL.

dandridge.....thanks so much for taking the time to share this info!!! How nice of you! It sounds like you had an infinitely better customer experience than I did. I also called trying to obtain the same info on the new 70 model. The person I talked to couldn't tell me anything, although she kept leaving the phone to look up info. She finally sent me a parts list for the newest model of KA dishwasher, but that's all she could offer me.

But here is what she told me. She said the vent is now on the side. She told me this ONLY after I told her that I had seen one of the newest models on a Sears showroom floor....the model with the smaller integrated handle in the center of the door. On that model the vent was most definitely now on the side, not on the top as it had been in previous models. To my way of thinking, that was just replacing one problem for another. I would definitely not want the vent blowing out on my kitchen cabinets.

In the parts list diagram it does not have a fan ANYWHERE!! Go figure. So my next plan is to call back another day and hopefully get a better customer service person. But your idea may be the best.....I should email my questions, and then they can send it along to the appropriate person.

But I saw with my own eyes that the vent is definitely on the side....I'm speaking of model #KUDE60HXSS....I've enclosed a link for it. This is not the model we're interested in, but isn't it strange that they would put the vent on the side of this one and on the bottom of the model you're looking at? Can't figure that one!

I'm going to call or email to confirm the info you sent me. I'm not sure about any of these customer service people. :-) The good thing is that we're not quite ready to buy our appliances yet, so hopefully one will actually be out in the store showrooms before I have to purchase it.

OOPS! I forgot to enclose the link.
http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?/#/product/KUDE60HXSS/

Here is a link that might be useful: picture of KA

fiddleddd, well you are more than welcome for the info. :o) That is odd about the vent! I don't have anywhere locally that I could see the KUDE70FXSS in person. I know I’ve gotten more detailed and very helpful responses by emailing. The woman who has answered all of my email is named Cindy P. she's been great. It might take 2 days for them to reply though, but she always has.

I can also tell you that the stainless is made out of 400 grade stainless, and that the unit can't be retrofitted with a custom panel.

Do you think because the KUDE60HXSS has completely different styling, maybe the vent is also in a different place? Just trying to figure out why they'd do it that way hmmm.. The vent is supposed to stay closed for 4 hours after the cycle is over, and they have said that by that time there should not be much of any moisture coming out of it, but I don't know for sure since I'm just going by the answers i've seen given before on the old kitchenaid forum.

I'm ready to purchase now, but am confused as to what direction to go now.

Do I have a KUDE70FVSS ordered up, since I’m sure I could get one somewhere? Most people seem thrilled with theirs. The new model sounds nicer with the fan, but does that create another opportunity for more issues down the road, since I'd be sort of like a guinea pig for this new product.

I figure when a product has been around a while that hopefully if there are any issues with it they fix and improve them as time goes on. But the new model hasn't gone through that yet...

And then a nice poster stated on another thread that the KUDE60FVSS is on sale at sears for 589.99, that is an insane deal. But I’d want a 5 year service warranty, and then the price with tax and warranty would be closer to $900. I already called Lowes to see if they would price match, but they can't because their cost is over $900 on the unit.

I could get a KUDE70FXSS at Lowes with a 5 year warranty with tax for about $1,250 (that with them price matching and the extra 10% off they would give) But then I'm essentially paying $350 more than the KUDE60FVSS for a fan during the drying cycle and 6 decibels less of noise... is it worth it? I want my dishes completely dry, and we use a lot of plastics... I don't know LOL. DH says to get the one with the fan if it will work better.

Can you tell that I have driven myself stupid crazy over this? LOL.
What are your thoughts on what direction you are going with your dishwasher purchase? (hoping some one elses thoughts may clarify the clutter in my head over this)

Dandridge.....Sorry it took me awhile to get back to you. I'll try to respond to the points you made.

When I get a chance I'll also email KA. But actually it would be good if I got another customer service rep.....just to see if their 'stories match'. :-)

Yes, I've also heard that the vent is supposed to stay closed for 4 hrs. But then why have SO many people had their counter tops ruined from moisture? I can't figure it out. Maybe they didn't install the moisture barrier that apparently came with old model dishwashers with vents on the top. If indeed the vent is at the bottom and blows straight out (as opposed to down on the hardwood floors), then that sounds like an improvement to me.

As far as being a 'guinea pig' for a new product, I wouldn't worry about that. I get the impression that the workings of this new model are basically the same as the old model. I think they've only tweaked it a bit......changing the fan because that's the one consistent complaint they have received, and lowering the decibel level (which is to compete with the Miele, which has been quieter). This is just my non-technical opinion. :-)

Like you, everything else I've heard about the dishwashers has been outstanding. There are so many people who rave over this machine, so I think I just need to go with it and pray that I don't get a lemon. And on that subject, I will absolutely buy an extended warranty for every appliance I buy. Consumer Reports says it isn't necessary, but it's cheap insurance for the unbelievable hassles that can result from an appliance that does go bad.

I think you'd be fine with either the 60 or the 70 model. I'm not the kind of person who needs the top of line anything....my other appliances will be KA refrigerator, Monogram single oven and Advantium, Bosch 30" induction cooktop. They're good appliances, but certainly not the top of the line or as expensive as Wolf's, Thermador's, etc. But I do think I'm going to buy the 70 model KA because of our circumstance. We're down-sizing to a small home, and I'll be in close quarters with my dishwasher. I want to run it and not have to listen to it. Also, I'm not SURE it will dry plastics.....don't know if any dishwasher will. But I'm so sick of my current dishwasher.....I have to dry a bunch of my dishes by hand after the cycle is finished before I can put them in the cabinet. It's very annoying. So the fan on the 70 sounds good to me.

I had to laugh at your last paragraph. Yes, me too!!!! The dishwasher, the sink (believe it or not), and the range hood and getting the right CFM's have all been insanely problematic for me. But I'm whittling everything down now, and we're close to a decision on everything.

Whatever happened to the good old days before we had the ability to research like this? We just picked out the color or style we liked, or we asked the Sears salesman which one he recommended. Voila! Now we almost have too much info at our disposal, and it can get overwhelming at times.

Good luck with your purchase. If you can wait to purchase, you may eventually find one in a store that you could take a look at. Let me know what you ended up doing.

BTW, Lowe's has an extended warranty program that sounded pretty good. You can for instance buy 4 appliances from Lowes, but buy an extended warranty for only 2 of the appliances. You don't have to designate WHICH appliance you want the warranty for. Probably all 4 appliances won't go out, so you're saving a little (and gambling) by buying the extended warranty for only 2 appliances and using it only on an 'as-needed' basis for whichever appliance should happen to go out.

Fiddleddd, I thought you responded very quickly, and I really appreciate your input!

I just found something that might help explain the side vent issue (hopefully) I was reading through the old K/A D/W threads and found one that spoke about the side vent issue, and that it is actually an air intake, not a vent. Maybe that’s what you saw on the floor model you looked at?

I’m not sure why people have had issues with countertop damage. I know I saw a post on the KA forum that a guy was having an issue with lots of steam coming out during the cycle, and moisture running down the front. It turned out he had a broken seal on his vent, so it didn’t shut as it should. He replaced it and didn’t have an issue after that. That may be a more isolated incident thought, I don’t know.

I hear you on the customer service reps LOL. I’ve done the same thing before. I want to see consistency when I need to know the facts about an appliance. It makes me nervous when they seem unsure or can’t agree on the specifics.

I did go in to Lowes today to see if they would price match the KUDE70FXSS. I found it online for about $1150, at number1direct.com. They said they could match it, but not do the extra 10% off because it was a special order item (since our Lowes doesn’t carry it as a regular model) so the price with tax, and warranty would be $1360. That’s quite a bit more than the KUDE60FVSS at sears ($905 with tax and 5 yr warranty) the price difference is what I’m stuck on at the moment.

I also make the mistake of looking at the Electrolux dishwashers, my gosh, they are beautiful. We have their French door fridge and love it. Their stainless is so light and shiny, almost mirror like. So I’ve spent the last 8 hours looking up reviews on those (yes, I’m serious LOL) I don’t believe I’ve seen so many bad reviews ever. I was pretty shocked. It was side by side at Lowes with a kitchenaid, and kitchenaid’s stainless is a more blue/gray undertone. Their door is completely flat and does not seem to pick up quite the amount of light the Electrolux slightly curved door does. But the K/A is still very nice looking. It was neat to see them side by side.

I am also very sick of wet dishes. And having to completely prewash everything.

LOL about the sink. I’m going through the same thing right now. And I also want a very quiet dishwasher since our family room, dining room, and kitchen are connected. Our current D/W is so loud that we have to turn the TV way up to hear it.

I agree on the warranty, the peace of mind is worth it for us. I hadn’t heard that about the Lowes warranty before, We had to specify what the warranty was for and they needed our receipt for it. I’ll look into that though, thanks for the tip!

I’m thinking that I have to make a decision by Saturday. I believe that’s the last sale day at sears for that deal.

Good luck with your purchase as well, and all of the appliances you are picking out! I’ll report back here after I’ve figured out which one to go with. Thanks for your input! :o)

Here is a link that might be useful: fully integrated KUDE70 info, side vent issue

Fiddleddd, Just wanted to let you know we just bought the KUDE70FXSS. Gulp. Hope we like it LOL. I wanted to get the cheaper KUDE60FVSS at sears, but hubby voted for the more expensive model, his reasoning it that it's quiter and would hopefully dry even better since we use so many plastics.

estimated delivery is dec. 10th. we brought in the printed page from number1direct.com to Lowes and they matched it, and we got the extra warranty as well, so dishwasher was $1150.99 (the lowest price I could find) and then we had the tax, and the warranty wasn't $150 like I was first told, it was $120. so total price was $1340.05. I'll let you know when it arrives, maybe I can take some pics of it for you so you can see where the vents are etc. :o)

Here is a link that might be useful: link to number 1 direct KUDE70FXSS