If you want clean dry dishes get a KA with the heated dry option. You won't need to mess around with softeners and salts and other things. The cost of running the heated dry is minimal and you won't have the hassles that some of the expensive, fussy machines give you.

Thanks, Weissman. What kind of a dw do you have?

I would stay away from the Bosch, if your other choice is the Miele. The Miele outshines it every time in my opinion. Here is a review I did of the Bosch 800 series: http://appliancebuyersguide.com/bosch-dishwasher-review-800-series/

I don't know that you would even need to go as high as the LaPerla in Miele to get the results you're looking for. I sell the Optima all day long, which is cheaper, has most of the same functions minus the self-opening door. My review takes specific aim at Bosch's system of drying without a heated element, which is a pain (and only done to be able to tout it as the "most energy efficient dishwasher")

Any choice of Miele will be not just quiet, but virtually SILENT. (Same with the higher end Bosch's) So I doubt that sound will be an issue either. The water hardness issue is taken care of with Miele's salt, which works fine for my clients that are on hard well water.

If the 2k price tag is killing you, check out Electrolux's dishwashers. That's the next place I would head.

I hope that helps!

Anthony
Appliance Buyer's Guide

I've had a KA for 8 years. My water is fairly hard but never had it measured and don't use any softeners. The KA cleans and dries perfectly. I don't measure the detergent powder - just pour some in. I'm still using an old box of Cascade Complete with phosphates until it runs out. I'm a little concerned about being forced to switch to the phosphate-free detergents. I do use Jet Dry but also always use the heated dry. My machine is very quiet although not silent. There have been people recently on this forum who are very pleased with the newer models of KA. Miele is certainly the Cadillac of DWs but it's expensive and from what I've read on this forum over the years, can be fussy. My impression is that Bosch quality has deteriorated latly.

Miele is more like the Mercedes Benz S-class of dishwashers.

crystal etching is a chemical process, not a physical one. I have glasses from college (yes, I'm a bachelor) that have no signs of etching after 30+ years of dish-washing.

Whether cheap or expensive, ALL dishwashers do the same thing the same way: They spray hot water around inside of a box, then they dry with heat or condensation or both. Cleaning is very similar with all. Some dry better than others but none will get every drop every time. If you use too much detergent for your water quality, your glasses will etch over time. If you put glasses in with a load on pot-scrubber cycle (more heat and more time) those glasses will etch over time. Latest models of DW's typically use less water than just a few years ago which means if you use the same amount of detergent you may be accustomed to, it will likely be an over-concentration. A little experimentation will tell you what's enough. You may be surprised at how little it takes.

Quiet costs more. Quietest machines will have more insulation, different motors, and filters rather than masticators. Because the new machines typically have longer cycles than a few years ago, that quietness feature has become a more important consideration for many people. Noise is more-or-less impossible to judge until you have the machine up and running in your home. From my own recent experience, I encourage you to consider this.

I just purchased a $600.00 Whirlpool Quiet Partner III that cleans beautifully but I think is too noisy. With local dealers full cooperation, and me paying the $200.00 difference, I am replacing it with one of their Quiet Partner V machines for this reason. Spec. for III is 59 decibels. Spec for V is 52-53 decibels. High-end Mieles and Bosches and a few others are quieter still.

I have 2 Mieles, neither a La Perla. Newest is the Optima with the cutlery rack. Fewer settings than the La Perla but the ones I need which are china & crystal and Express (the 47 min cycle). Holds a ton. Nearly silent. Very happy with it as are a majority of Miele owners.

I recently bought a Bosch more midrange dishwasher. It cost me $809 at Lowes. (List price was 999, Lowes usual price 899, Lowes 10% off sale+free delivery made it 809).

I elected to buy an extended warranty for $110. Total, including tax, was in the mid 900s.

Expensive for a dishwasher? Yes. However, I do find that a) it is indeed virtually silent. The model # of the Stainless one is SHE65P05UC; I bought the white one.

I wanted to buy a Miele, I really did. But it would have cost me more than double. I find this one cleans CLEAN. (I use dishwasher powder from calbenpuresoap.com, which cleans better than anything else I have ever seen in both my former Whirlpool and in this one).

It is, indeed, virtually silent. I cannot say whether it will last as long as a Miele, who DOES make top of the line stuff. My Miele oven is absolutely beautiful.

I don't totally understand Applianceguy's comment about Bosch's drying using condensing; isn't Miele exactly the same way? Using a condensing system?

I love Miele appliances. However, I also love domestic manufacturing, and Bosch, while not a US company, DOES make a lot of its dishwasher here in the USA.

I don't have enough history with the machine yet to say if I think it is super reliable, but it does clean better than either my old Asko or my two Whirlpools.

Nate

I have a Miele Inspira, the entry level Miele, no softener etc. I have hard-as-a-rock well water and a whole house water softener. I use the variety of Cascade sold inexpensively at Sam's Club. From time to time, I fill the rinse aid dispenser, but not always and I'm not sure I see a measurable difference in performance when I do. The dishes are always spotless, we scrape and sometimes if it's sticky, we rinse, but not a lot. The dishes are dry, the plastic usually is not, depending on how soon after the cycle ends that I unload. If I let it sit awhile, it's drier, if not, then it's wetter, and if there's a dip in the bottom of a cup, there will be water in there. I do not find this to be a problem, but if you do, it would be a factor. It's located in a big, open room and it's very, very quiet. Not quite silent, but close enough so as not to matter to me. It certainly wouldn't interrupt a conversation and if you're not standing right next to it, you probably wouldn't notice it at all. Honestly, if the bottom of the line model is this quiet, then something higher up on the line should be virtually silent--not sure how much more quiet it actually needs to be, but that's just me.

I don't baby or fuss with my appliances, and I'm not particularly careful about how I load it, though I feel like I take reasonable care to make sure water can get to everything. I'm happy with the performance of the machine, I absolutely LOVE the upper rack and the config of the baskets, and I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.
Hope this helps.

Cj

"......if there's a dip in the bottom of a cup, there will be water in there. I do not find this to be a problem, but if you do, it would be a factor."

FWIW...I hope it's not, because if it is, nobody would ever be satisfied with ANY dishwasher. And, yet, there have been posters on various threads here complaining about it.

To expand on my curmudgeonliness, (is that a word?) I'll also say that I think "dishwasher" is an improper label. IMHO, they should be called "dish closets".....someplace to hide your dirty dishes until...voila!...you touch a button and wait a while.

OK...sorry...I'm over it.

I have a Bosch - midrange one. Works well and is quiet. The condensing dry doesn't really dry but we don't use heated dry ever so it's fine.

But I hate the freaking racks.

If Miele was an option financially, I'd pick it in a heartbeat.

Unless Miele has recenly changed their basket configurations, before you go that route, take your plates and bowls to the dealer and see how they fit. Loading on mine (Excella) had a learning curve and because it was pointed out to me by the salesperson, I chose on the higher end to get more basket options which I do use. However, mine, and even more with the LaPerla, you will scratch your head later and say to yourself...."why did I spend so much $$$ on useless bells and whistles?" Good Luck

Thanks everyone for your responses. All of your input is very valuable and is exactly what I need to help me figure this out.

For years, I ran my ancient and faithful KA under the "Dump it and Run" school of dishwashing. Dump in the dishes, dump in whatever detergent I had on hand, and run the machine. It was the first and only dw I ever owned. Very easy, mindless and reliable.

I don't care if some of the dishes and cups have some water on them, but after reading stories about total sogginess, I was apprehensive.

Price isn't an issue, but you are right, eggcream, I don't want to be scratching my head over spending a ton for unnecessary bells and whistles. I guess the La Perla's "Internal Turbothermic Drying" intrigued me - really does sound like an S-class Mercedes weedmeister!

I'm going to study your posts thoroughly and go off to the appliance store this week.

In my last house I put in a Bosch, mid range and loved it. When we did this kit the DW was one thing I gave no thought to, another Bosch, again mid range. Yes it cleans beautifully, economically with small amount of Cascade powder. I have no complaints. All that said, I think I liked the 1st one better but it may be just the change from an old KA to a practically silent machine that cleaned everything so I was thrilled.

I'm not price sensitive, so I was perfectly willing to buy a Miele instead of a KA. Unfortunately, I run a lot of very mixed loads, and much of what I have is odd-shaped or very large. They just didn't fit easily in a Miele unless I wanted to use the machine multiple times/day washing 3 items at a time.

I think the Miele is quieter and better built than the KA. But the KA fit almost all of my stuff, and I really appreciate the flexible loading.

Be warned about ANY new DW - it's not so much the brand, as the soap nowadays. Removal of phosphates has negatively impacted cleaning power in a big way.

I had a bosch dishwasher that broke after 10 years and I replaced it with a new bosch she58something from Lowes. It was about $900. I wanted the Miele but they had to order it and I was too impatient.
The Bosch is quiet and it cleans but my stuff comes out SOAKING WET. It's a huge Pain. I wash a lot of plastic (toddler juice cups, tuperware,) if they are on the top rack all the water drips onto the dishes and things on the bottom. Everything has to be laid out to dry.
I saw someone mention their bosch had a heated dry option, I don't think mine does. I will never buy a dishwasher without that option again

jjudd - are you using rinse aid in your DW? Machines without a heated dry option need rinse aid to dry the dishes. I have a friend with a Bosch who had the same complaint you did - she thought rinse aid was too expensive - but now that she uses it, her dishes come out dry. But I'm like you, I llike heated dry.

We just ordered the Miele Diamante. The key thing driving the decision was the need to have it fit flush with our inset cabinets -- that eliminated KA.

But it does seem that the consensus on Miele is pretty high -- much higher, say, than the consensus on any particular brand of gas range or refrigerator.

With respect....I have not perceived any particular consensus on Miele. The predominant favorable mention is about build-quality and reliability. That is contrasted with the myriad problems reported...very similar to many other brands except remedies are always more expensive. These forums and others are replete with opinions.

Asolo, I agree wth your comment about 'dish closets'. :-) I'd never complain about a little water in the dip of a cup, or a little wet plastic--as long as the dishes are clean. I've often wondered if my expectations are just lower than average. LOL.... However, it's been my impression that, mostly people like their Miele dishwashers...but when someone doesn't, they are justifiably vocal about their displeasure, because they do cost so much.

By the way, my Inspira has the "upgraded standard" rack and I love that, so I'd highly recommend getting a model that has some ability to configure it. I was a little worried about the capacity of the unit, but I have to admit, I've been pleasantly surprised. It's amazing how much you can stuff in there. The advice to take your dishes in and try them out in the various dishwashers was VERY sound--I did that and it figured prominently in my decision.

I hope you're happy with whatever you choose for your new dishwasher.

Cj

I am one of the few (only?) who opted for the Fagor DW. I got it from AJ Madison and with a rebate spent about $800. It sits flush (mine has a custom panel), is very quiet, and so far no complaints about cleaning. There is a learning curve with the racks which I expected. But no top drawer for silverware if that's what you must have.

jjudd - agree with weissman- you need to add the rinse aid/dryer. I believe all Bosch units need it.

Pasture 19 - I remember all the same fears after reading pages of posts for nights on end. We decided to get the Miele Optima and it IS just like the dishwasher you want -- put in the soap, pick the cycle, and press start. There really isn't any mystery to it, and it's so quiet we usually don't know it's running. I hardly pre-rinse anything (pots and pans included), and sometimes the DW doesn't clean every morsel, but it's usually more about the way I pack it (still learning). We're completely happy with the Miele Optima.

In a word MIELE - but you probably don't need the top of the line. I have the EXCELLA and it is wonderfully quiet. I really don't use all the functions - just normal, pot/pan, sometimes : short, crystal, and glass. Love, love, love the cutlery tray with the spray above and below - silverware is always clean. THe biggest adjustment is the size relative to American brands - and how to make the most of the loading. I have a number of MIELE appliances, but the DW is hands down my favorite!!

Weissman and Salmon, Thanks so much for your help! I think I do use a Rinse aid. I use this Finish-jet dry turbo dry stuff. It's a liquid that I put in a compartment next to the dishwasher tab compartment. It is numbered 1 to 6.
What do those numbers mean?

The numbers represent how much rinse is used per wash. You may need to dial it up a little. Check your manual to see which way the numbers run - try it one step at a time until you get dry dishes. Plastics may never come out completely dry but you can put those on the bottom rack since you don't have heated dry.

Had a kitchenaid "top of the line" now have a miele excella for 3 years. No comparison. Miele is better built, quieter, cleans better and is more flexible.

Am getting 2 la perlas at the new house. I can't think of a higher endorsement

Opposite opinion here. I bought a Miele Optima last year, and it was terrible at cleaning dishes. Everything came out with food stuck all over it. Multiple service visits resulted in dirty AND etched dishes. I returned it under Miele's 90-day guarantee and bought a KA. The KA doesn't have all the bells and whistles, but my dishes are now CLEAN.

warmfridge....

Your Miele techs were idiots. They deserved to lose the business.

Glad you've got a machine you're pleased with.

I would buy another KA in a heartbeat. Ours has been a workhorse for the last 10 years and no special treatment. It's quiet and everything always comes out clean as a whistle...and dry. We looked at Miele's and Bosch's before we ended up with the top of the line KA. No regrets here.

Between the two, I'd go for Miele just because of the better rack layout. Their premium racks are extremely versatile. I think Bosch should have put more thought into their top tray. On the Miele, you can remove 1/3 of the tray and utilize the full height of the tub - great for stemware, which I wash a lot of. On the Bosch, the tray is either in or out. Yes, you can sort of lay stemware in the middle basket but it takes up too much space in my opinion. I like to really, really stuff dishwashers before I run them - can't stand stuff taking up more space than necessary.

Other than that, we have a Bosch without the third rack (bought four years ago) and I totally, absolutely love it. Best dishwasher I've ever used - including Miele.

Some info on Miele from my YouTube channel:

Video One
Video Two

Alex

I didn't think I'd use the crazy rack options in the La Perla, but I do all the time -- even the tilting middle rack position. I like the cutlery tray (which I doubt is exclusive to Miele anyhow) vs the basket. Other hand, I'm not a "set it and forget it" kinda person. I actually read the manual about how to load it, cycle options and heed the tech's counsel about timing, how much detergent and what kind to use. He had a point of view about dishwashers. I rarely have an experience like that from a repair or installation.

Keep in mind for every one of my experience there's another who's happy to complain on the Internet about their bad one.

Being afraid is giving both us too much credibility.

Yo whirlpool trainee....thanks for the videos. Helps understanding of the differences -- even if many of them may not appeal.

Weissman, you were totally right! I called Bosch and they told me if I have hard water with a water softener I should dial the rinse aid dispenser to 1. Yes, if I want wet dishes. I tried 3 and 4 then dialed it up to 6 and finally.....mostly dry dishes! Hooray! Thank you!

We have had a Bosch SHE68E15UC for one year and have never had a problem. Our hard tap water is softened just right so all the glasses come out sparkling. I use Morton System Saver II salt for the dishwasher's built-in water softener.