Steam showers - can they be truly frameless?

15 years ago

The installers around here really seem to want to use the U-channels top and bottom of the fixed panel (the panel sits on top of the tub surround. Then a clear vinyl sweep between where the inline glass panel meets the pivot hinged side of the door. I wasn't picturing metal and vinyl.... I asked them to do a U-channel at the bottom of the panel where it connects to the tub and 2 clips at the top where it attaches to the tiled header. There will also be a sweep at the bottom of the door. If it needs that, will there be a sweep at the top and both sides, too?

Is it really an issue for a steam shower to have all of those seals and (ugly) U-channels? They are polished nickel and 3/8" tall but I still am not impressed. Will it leak steam more at the top now that I've asked for clips for asthetic reasons? Do I care? I think I may suffocate anyway.

What would you do? What's normal for a steam shower that's tiled on 3 sides?

Here's one that I think shows the nickel trim but it's really hard to see.

http://www.netconnections.name/123/glasscrafters/product11.gif

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1509082}}

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Comments (8)

bill_vincent
15 years ago
I don't know about the rest of it, but at the very least, right at the door you need to have some kind of seal all the way around the door, or you'll have major moisture problems due to steam escaping. You need to realise that with a steam shower moreso than any other kind of installation, you need to make sure the enclosure is 100% completely watertight, or there'll be problems.
ventupete
15 years ago
While what Bill says is true in most parts of the country, IMHO it doesn't apply in dry climates like So. California. We've had a steam shower for years without seals around the door. The glass door was fitted pretty tightly so that not much steam escapes, but what does escape is welcome moisture out here where the humidity is almost always pretty low. I think you need the u-channel at the bottom of the glass for safety reasons alone. You can probably get away with clips at the top, but you'll want to have some clear silicone caulk up there - a lot of steam will escape from the top otherwise. You may think it's a big deal now, but you'll never even notice the u-channel after you get it installed.
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bicoastal, Unless it's detailed with a full vapor barrier from the start, it's very difficult to turn a "regular" shower into a steam shower with just a little remodeling. Traditional showers are normally built with a drainage plain behind the tile/cement board...it might be tar paper, it might be polyethylene sheet plastic...but it's usually "lapped for drainage" instead of being fully sealed at the seams, and it's usually a partial wall installation instead of being floor-to-ceiling and ceiling. Or there might not be any barrier at all. Just tile over backer board over framing. A steam shower can drive moisture through natural stone, through grout, and into the wall. If there's not a fully inclusive vapor barrier on all six sides of the steam room cube, then moisture vapor can be driven through the wall and into the wall cavities. When warm moisture vapor cools, it'll condense...wetting and saturating the insulation and/or the wood framing. Not good. That's why with steam showers it's best to have a fully integral vapor barrier on all sides of the cube. A small yet important point, is that "waterproofing" does not necessarily mean a "vapor" barrier. You can use a waterproofing membrane, and it'll shed liquid water. That's good enough in a traditional shower. But vapor can pass through some waterproofing membranes. Again, that's not good in a steam shower. Moisture vapor would destroy your green board over time, green board is moisture resistant. Not waterproof. Not vaporproof. It's been recognized for at least the past 20 years by good tile mechanics that green board is an inferior tile backer in wet areas. Building codes finally caught up to common trade knowledge and banned green board as a tile backer in wet areas in 2006. That said, in a typical shower green board can perform fine or 30 years or fail in 3 years. In a steam shower it'd be a short-lived installation due to repeated vapor drive. The nice thing about having a topical vapor barrier applied to the face of the tile backer board (between the backer board and the tile) is that the only thing that can get "wet" in a situation like that is the tile and the thinset. The membrane stops the moisture from penetrating into the backer board. With no deep wetting, the steam shower can dry more quickly than otherwise might be possible. While there are several materials out there that perform fine, you'll see Bill and I mention Kerdi. It's not the only material that can do the job, but it's a warm-fuzzy for me. It's been my membrane of choice since way back in the 20th century. Wow, that's over a thousand years!
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You have valid concerns and we take extra measures to acommodate steam vapor escape by treating the ceiling and/or adjoining painted surfaces outside the shower with usually an oil based primer and sometimes topcoat of paint . Steam rooms require a few things to be just right and if so you shouldnt have excessive release of vapor. Starting with the proper sized generator for the "adjusted cubic ft" A proper glass install with the acceptable tolerances ( we use sweep and bulb gaskets to compensate for minor inaccuracies and zip our steam showers up and then utilize the transom.) A transom smartly placed in relation to the Fan that also needs to be the proper CFM for the room and other hvac concerns,. Our fans are always on a timer, and preferably jumped on the same circuit as the showers interior light. You want the fan on from the start of the shower and remaining on for 30 +/- mins after you get out. I always suggest opening the transom and swinging the shower door IN to the shower when done. On this steamer ceiling we used the existing bathroom fan and planned ahead and had the painter coat our cedar install with sikens marine grade topcoat. Hope that helps a bit in your effort to rectify your concerns.-best
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We will have a small master bath with a shower only. I was planning glass blocks up about 5 feet and then stepping down to the open threshold. A closed off doorway would become a seating alcove. The measurements will be something like 36 x 60. We're planning a rainhead which will mostly be a softer fuller shower, and then a handheld with a longer hose, but mounted on a shower bar. If this handheld, which is more forceful, is closer to the glass block wall, it should direct water more into the corner away from the threshold. Or so I'm thinking. Is my reasoning backwards on that assumption? Asking advice here: would a frameless glass wall be better to use than the glass block? It would take up less space but it would not give any privacy. And as far as an open shower experience making you feel too cool, there is the option of a heat lamp on a timer which would counteract that. I prefer the heat lamps to bathroom heaters built into the wall. But then I've not lived in really cold climates. We will be selling this house next spring, or I'd consider adding infloor heating under the new tilework.
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Thank you both. The 2 glass fabricators I have talked with since I posted both said that 1/2" would be overkill, but they will take my money if I really want it. Since the side panels go all the way to the ceiling, they say I do not need anything thicker than 3/8" for structural reasons. I will ask about the mini clips. The regular clips are about 1-3/4" square. Right now, the plan is to use a channel at the bottom for support, which will be hidden by the 1/2" thick tile (plus mortar) butted up on each side of the glass at the curb. There will be clips holding each of the 92" H x 14" wide side panels to the wall (2 clips) and ceiling (1 or 2 clips). I am thinking about using a towel bar/handle on the door instead of a standard handle. It adds extra metal, but I need someplace to hang the bath mat to dry. (I hate to obscure the pretty tile work with a towel hanging on the door, but don't have another good place to put it.)
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horsefarm
Original Author
15 years ago
Thanks for the responses. I went with the U-CHANNEL at the bottom and clips at the top. Why? I'm not sure! He's going to clear caulk the top and side on the fixed panel anyway. There will be vinyl sweeps on the door. I'm
ok with it now ... after I read Bill's post I started thinking of all the moisture. I don't need issues down the road. I'm sure I won't notice the metal after the lovely glass is installed.

I've been leaving with a curtain for 2 years....can't wait!

Thanks for the responses!
trulyframeless
15 years ago
YES, THEY CAN BE TRULY FRAMELESS.
visit, www.trulyframeless.com
davidro1
15 years ago
Thank you for reviving this thread. Hope you succeed in business. Today your web site consists of a few pictures and an offer to become a franchisee.

On Dec 1st the OP said U-channels were "ugly" and he asked if -- for any reason -- steam showers in particular needed them more than regular showers. The big question is Why so many glass shower panels are installed with U channels. This Is The Question. With Channels or Not With Channels. Any shower enclosure.

When I bought glass, they insisted they re-measure my measurements and then they ALL tried to convert that into Channels holding glass (("...At least one Channel, sir..."))

I held my ground and told them to silicone it. The glass could not be cut smaller to fit into a channel, I wanted what I wanted and the best guys said "well OK if you insist..."

It turns out that when they order the glass (cut and tempered) a normal size variance occurs because of the sanding need to get a flat straight edge. So they all want to have a Channel to hold the normal variation (normal margin of error). It requires more human work to get a piece of glass that is the size you want it to be within a 1/16th or 1/8th inch. Then they have to lean on their supplier of tempered glass to do One Good Job and not just a run of the mill job.

In any case, silicone can compensate for some of the variance. Silicone is just one way of gluing them. Other methods exist also.

HTH, and I am not in the business nor am I considering getting into the business.

-david
bill_vincent
15 years ago
Sounds like a good product. But in the future, trulyframless-- spamming isn't allowed here. I'm hoping the powers that be see my post and let it stay, because of its informational value, but you definitely want to refrain from posting to a for profit site in which you have an interest, especially on your first day in the forum. :-)

Just some friendly advice.
MongoCT
15 years ago
Any installation can be done frameless, it makes it easier on the glass guys if the openings are tiled plumb and level.

Then the glass guys come in and do accurate measuring and fabrication.

Channels do protect the weight-bearing edges of the glass, they make for an easier and safer installation. Going frameless can be riskier do to the possibility of the glass shattering either during installation or even after installation if you get movement due to the house settling.

Never seen the latter, but I've heard of one case of it happening.
slateberry
15 years ago
Hey truly, I'd say that more than 50% of the people planning their bathroom remodels are women, so just going by the numbers, your home page might do well to have a nearly topless man instead of a nearly topless woman. Or why not both, just to be on the safe side.

**from a promoter for justice and equality in skin exposure**

;-)

Steam showers - can they be truly frameless?

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bill_vincent

ventupete

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Steam showers - can they be truly frameless?

Comments (8)

bill_vincent

ventupete

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