Keep your old KA. For a Hobart-built KA, it isn't "old" at all. It may be noisier and use more water than new machines, but very likely washes & dries better .. and isn't that the purpose of a dishwasher?

I'm an Asko guy myself. Folks here don't seem to hold them in high regards though. Ours' performs quite well and I don't know what else we could expect or want from a dw.

We have the 3251, a step below what you mentioned, 3531.

Asko overall is very quiet, if not the quietest.

I would think the other brands you are looking at would serve you well also. Just depends on the features you want.

Asko has one of the worst reliability records (along with F&P).

These days, most DW's do a decent job of washing, as long as you use the right detergent, and as long as you avoid the least expensive units. More money buys more insulation and heavier drums, which keep things quiet.

But the old Hobart KA's have an incredible reputation.

I have the Miele LaPerla two models up from the Optima and am very pleased with it. It is the best DW I have ever had...so far... although my previous 10 year old Miele cleaned just as well and never needed a service call. Miele's seem to be built with the same intent(long lasting, good performance) as the Hobart KA was.
It does clean pots and pans, cheese and other things better than my older KA DW which was built by Hobart, and it uses very little water..only as much as required based on soil level, however the KA built by Hobart cleaned things very well. Yes it used more water and this made it quicker.

If you are happy with your DW KEEP IT. Don't replace it just because of looks. However if you want to replace it, don't let it go out of your house.

If I could have bought a KA made by Hobart 13 years ago I would have and then stored the thing in my basement.

This is a machine---that will never repeated.

>>Asko has one of the worst reliability records (along with F&P).

A bit outdated but an opinion nonetheless.

Now you know what I mean when I say they are not held in high regard here.

"A bit outdated but an opinion nonetheless."

john.com - I'm interested in where you might have seen more recent, or more objective, reliability stats. I just checked Consumer Reports and of the brands they listed, Asko and FP were the worst, in that order. Asko did rate highly in performance though.

love my Asko 3251...lots of recent posts about it...just run a search.

I replaced a 35 year old KitchenAid Hobart and was glad to see it go! Noisy, didn't clean well...had to prescrub.

Someone tell me how Asko can be rated worst in reliability and rate high in performance? If your reliability stinks your performance is for nothing also.

That said....It's consumers..can we trust their testing and feedback from readers? Use them as a starting point in any search and then continue to gather information.

I have nothing against Asko's because I have no experience with them so better to listen to those that have and are using them.

I like my Miele because I have had 11 trouble free years with them. They have fan assisted condensation drying and for me no problem with drying either. The fold downs on the racks may make them look thin but that is because they are easily configurable and fold down out of the way or up to secure wine glasses. This allows you to wash glasses in any rack of the DW bottom or middle.

I appreciate and respect everyone's input on this.

I have been thinking about just keeping the KA. I am not doing a major remodel but am updating just a few items because we plan to sell in about a year. I am purchasing Miele ovens on clearance (H398BP2) and replacing my now dead GE monogram MW with a stainless model, so I thought I should replace the DW to make things look cohesive. My SZ and Thermador cooktop already have the stainless look.
BTW, just to fan the flame a little more . . .I have a dear friend who just remodeled her kitchen and replaced her Asko with a top of the line Miele . . .She put the Asko in her basement kitchen. She said she probably should have bought another Asko mainly because she feels it dries better. She had no problems with her 10 yr old Asko.

If you are only considering replacing the DW because you want a stainless front, check out a product like these stainless foil sheets, below. For about $40 you can match your DW to your stainless appliances.

Nicole

Here is a link that might be useful: alcor deco sheets

"Someone tell me how Asko can be rated worst in reliability and rate high in performance? If your reliability stinks your performance is for nothing also."

Same way a fast, well-handling sports car may be found in the shop a lot.

"That said....It's consumers..can we trust their testing and feedback from readers? Use them as a starting point in any search and then continue to gather information."

Sounds reasonable to me. Starting with the 131,000 consumers that responded to CR's DW survey.

"I like my Miele because I have had 11 trouble free years with them."

Me too! And therefore it doesn't surprise me that Miele is in a statistical tie for first in reliability per CR.

Truth be told, I don't know diddly about Asko and therefore have no opinions on them. I just thought it appropriate to point out the FACT that a source that many people (not everyone) respect rated their reliability poorly.

>>I'm interested in where you might have seen more recent, or more objective, reliability stats.

First hand conversations with friends and family before we purchased. All were very satisfied, some could not praise it enough. Most of these owners had purchased within the last 5 years.

I specifically asked this question at a 50 year family owned, highly reputed appliance chain.

What dishwasher is the best?

Period. All I wanted was the best. I was led to both Asko and Miele.

We chose the Asko because of our personal first hand networking results.

I became an Asko guy because we have found ours' provides us with great results.

Just came back to this site after many months' absence, and this is the first thread I saw (though not the subject I came back to learn about). Had to pipe up because of my Asko experience.

We bought 2 new dishwashers 14 months ago as part of a major remodel. Our workhorse (thank God) is a GE Monogram, which is fabulous (though I might redesign the utensil rack for ease of use).

Our Asko 3251 is another story. We bought a lot of appliances from several manufacturers, and this is the only one I dislike. Since it is our secondary dishwasher, I end up only using it for dinner parties etc. But I dread filling it up and dealing with it every time I use it. It is harder to load. It doesn't clean as well or dry as well as the Monogram. The dish and utensil racks are rudimentary. It is quiet, but not as quiet as the Monogram.

There is only one measure where I find it superior to the Monogram and that is the clearance between the upper rack and the lower rack. There is about half an inch more space between the racks, and for some reason this space makes a difference for large objects.

I bought the Asko because I have Scavolini cabinets with a 6" toekick, and the Asko is in a very visible location. I needed a streamlined look there so I didn't want to drop an appliance below the level of the toe kick. Since the Asko door is a lot shorter than the Monogram door, it works with my high toe kicks. Purely cosmetic.

Because I knew it would be a secondary dishwasher, I didn't want to spring for my other option, the Miele, also with a short door profile. This is the one appliance I selected on the advice of the appliance store salesman without much research, since it was only at the last minute that I realized the the door issue (originally I'd spec'd 2 Monograms). Swedish, he said. Gotta be OK, I thought, solves the toekick issue for less $ than the Miele. Swedish, absolutely must be well designed. Not.

Unless I am operating the Asko incorrectly, I would never buy another Asko and seriously regret the one I bought.

My folks got an Asko because it fit the hole where their old, unfixable machine was. My mother hates it. It's quieter than the old machine, but it's very hard to load.

Truth be told, I don't know diddly about Asko and therefore have no opinions on them. I just thought it appropriate to point out the FACT that a source that many people (not everyone) respect rated their reliability poorly.

I don't know how many people respect CR. It seems to me many people just don't know enough to judge the quality of CR's work. I hear far too many times "I rely on CR for recommendations on X, but I am very familiar with Y and their recommendations for those are bogus," which tells me that all of CR's recommendations are bogus to those familiar with the kinds of product being reviewed. There's a problem there.

In addition, anyone familiar with statistics would recognize some very serious problems with CR's process for determining "reliability" and the presentation of the results. A search here should still reveal discussion threads. In short, CR's ratings derive from a poorly-coordinated survey of self-selected respondents. It's not the kind of data anyone should rely upon, never mind quote to others.

Before entirely trashing CR, it helps to remember exactly what they're trying to get at. They're not looking for the best, or the most useful, or the one you'll love. They're looking for the one that gives the best general performance for the least money, including repairs. They aren't recommending for enthusiasts, but for people who just want something that'll get the job done adequately and not need fixing. Often the best things fail more often because they sacrifice a little durability to improve performance in other ways. CR doesn't care about this level of performance, because there are a heck of a lot of features that ordinary users don't bother with. For instance, my dishwasher (came with the house) has a bunch of cycles I've never had occasion to use. If it just did on and off I'd be fine. I could have sterilized the canning jars on the stove :) When I do my remodel I'll probably get a dishwasher that has a bunch of features just in case, or because it's the one with the best racks (which I do care about), but if I had the one CR recommends it would probably meet my rather simple needs. For someone else that might be woefully inadequate.

Keep the KitchenAid. It will be going strong for years to come. I believe that age still had reversable panels for the colors. What color panel is showing right now?

lagoon lisa - thanks for the very interesting post. I am trying to select a DW for a remodel and had not considered a Monogram. Can you tell me which model you have? Sounds like you are very satisfied with your selection.

"...poorly-coordinated survey of self-selected respondents. It's not the kind of data anyone should rely upon, never mind quote to others."

Ok, so you'd place higher emphasis on opinions from this forum? I can hardly imagine a more poorly-coordinated survey of self-selected respondents. Not to mention that as we sit here behind our screen names we really have no overwhelming incentive to maintain credibility or reputation.

If a product has an actual failure rate of 15% and I know 4 people who own one, there's a 52% chance that none of these people have experienced a problem. If one person did have a problem and I choose to dismiss it as bad luck, then that throws ANY indication of reliability out the window.

Flawed or not, CR is the best thing we have in some regards.

As for this forum, personally I rely on it more for practical opinions such as ease of use (who knows what CR considers easy to use), experience with service, etc., and more subjective opinions like how it looks, etc.

p.s. 2006 circulation of the magazine was 4.3MM and web site 2.3MM. I would think that validates my claim that they are a source that many people (not everyone) respect.

Angela and others - So sorry that this turned into a CR thread. Unfortunately it happens every time someone makes the "mistake" of referencing them.

So back on topic, FWIW I love my I-don't-know-how-old (1990's) Miele, model G864 if I recall correctly. Cleaning is excellent, drying is good but not perfect on all plastic, noise is very low even though it's a far from ideal installation (to start with, there's no side on the adjacent base cabinet). Several issues raised on this forum lately would make me a bit nervous buying a new one, but on the other hand I wouldn't trade the cutlery tray for anything.

We have an Asko 3251, cleans and dries well and is very quiet. Like any new appliance it was different than the old one and I had to get adjusted to it. Like where the dishes and glasses best fit.
I would get a new dishwasher for resale value - the kitchen is the most important room in the house. Have you considered Bosch dishwashers?

Hi bobal,
My dishwasher has the chrome and white top panel with the large chrome push buttons to activate the cycle. The bottom two panels match my white cabinets.

Hi lisacdm,
I did consider the Bosch, but the appliance salesman said that once I got into the top-end of Bosch I may as well get an Asko or Miele. He was reluctant to sell me a Kitchenaid because of service issues.

And fenworth, not to worry - I enjoy hearing everyone's opinion on CR, because I have had some of the same misgivings about their findings over the years.

I have the new kitchen aid... no service problems per se... cleans/drys very well (I flat out refuse to rinse prior to loading... that's why I have a DW).... but... the door supports have "sprung" twice so far... the door must weigh 40 pounds minimum... and when the supports let go... the door just "drops" onto you once it is unlatched... a real problem from my perspective...

Bosch... I have several friends who bought them the same time I got the KA... not one likes it... yes it's quiet as can be... but it takes FOREVER to run a cycle and it recirculates the food around inside and scatters the bitss to the dishes.... every one I know with one has the same comments... I am forever glad I didn't get that machine...

when I replace again I hope the door is better engineered on the KA... for the most part I do like the machine...

They're [CR] looking for the one that gives the best general performance for the least money, including repairs.

Yet they do recommend products from companies which dwell in the bottom of their "reliability" ratings. That's a serious disconnect.

They aren't recommending for enthusiasts, but for people who just want something that'll get the job done adequately and not need fixing.

So are you implying that CR should not be trusted when they're evaluating high-end products (of any kind)? IMHO, someone paying $2200 for a dishwasher is not trying just "to get the job done adequately". Perhaps those folks are better off here on THS, where several people likely have evaluated and even purchased and used the very brand or model they're considering.

p.s. 2006 circulation of the magazine was 4.3MM and web site 2.3MM. I would think that validates my claim that they are a source that many people (not everyone) respect.

So that's 6.7 million subscribers. It's a considerable number -- though almost 50 million appliances were sold in 2006 alone. I guess everyone's reading CR at the library. :-)

Angela and others - So sorry that this turned into a CR thread. Unfortunately it happens every time someone makes the "mistake" of referencing them.

I wasn't the one who mentioned CR first. Look, use CR as a guide to product features. Use their information to prompt further questions in your evaluation. But if you ask bad questions, you will get bad information, and repeating that cycle hundreds of thousands of times does not make it better.

All I'm suggesting is that people evaluate CR critically. See if their conclusions square with your experience and your own research. Don't buy anything just on their say-so and don't drop a product from your short list just because they didn't like it.

So back on topic, FWIW I love my I-don't-know-how-old (1990's) Miele

And I'll throw in a vote for my four-year-old ASKO. It was almost-the-cheapest-they-sold, but it's quiet, very efficient, holds a lot, and gets everything but the deepest nooks and crannies dry. Very happy purchase, IMHO.

Just to throw another option out there. I looked a the Bosch, KA and LG. I went with the LG for $750 with a 5 year extended warranty for a few reasons. Larger capacity, hard food griner, ease of loading. So far I love it. Its been installed for about four months. It has the hidden controls and SS. Its very quiet - in fact a few times I thought maybe I had forgot to start it.

I don't know how many people respect CR. It seems to me many people just don't know enough to judge the quality of CR's work. I hear far too many times "I rely on CR for recommendations on X, but I am very familiar with Y and their recommendations for those are bogus," which tells me that all of CR's recommendations are bogus to those familiar with the kinds of product being reviewed.

Please don't confuse CU 'ratings' with their reliability reports. They are unrelated. CU's ratings are based on their tests, while their reliability reports are based on hundreds of thousands of reader resonses.

In addition, anyone familiar with statistics would recognize some very serious problems with CR's process for determining "reliability" ... CR's ratings derive from a poorly-coordinated survey of self-selected respondents.

CU realiabilty ratings are based on sound statistical principles. They publish no reliability ratings for anything they don't receive >300 reports on. They issue no reliability reports on any product more than 7 years old, as evidence and common sense shows by that point, use and abuse has more effect than design and constructiuon quality. They only take reorts on products the readers purchased themselves new-meaning if you moved into a older home, you should not report on the appliances in the home, unless you paid for and installed them.

Essentially all statistical studies involve 'self-selected respondents', meaning people willing to answer the questions. Personally, I prefer that sort of reliability report than one that someone paid or rewarded for, like the J.D. Powers reports, whose reposndents name are put into a pool for a prize drawing.

What evidence do you have that their survey data comes from a 'poorly-coordinated' survey?

And to answer your standard accusation, I am not a statistician, but I have taken (and passed) graduate-level statistics courses. CR employs professional statisticians, most with graduate degrees. Senior research positions generally require Ph.D.'s at CR. (check their web site for current openings for examples).

Lastly, I am willing to listen to other reliability reports, based on data, , not gossip, if you can point me to a source.

Cpovey,

You have made a major point. Most of what is on the forums at this site is merely opinion masqurading as data.

In fact most of the opinions are two or three times removed from the original opinion.

I have asked for data from so-called experts several times and have never received a reply back.

Rob

Being that respondents are NOT monitored while they answer the CR questionnaire and there's NO auditing to verify the answers, there's NO guarantee that the published data is accurate. It's anecdotal at best, same as some of you are considering the posts here. Back when I was a subscriber to CR, I routinely included a few appliances and electronics that were OLDER than the expressed limit (of course, stating that they were within the allowed time frame). I had no repairs on the items, and I wanted that to be included in their statistics. Who knew? LOL!

hi all. pardon my ignorance but what is LG? i am also in the market for a new dishwasher. thanks.

LG Corp. is the fancy new name for the old Lucky Goldstar Corp. in Korea. They make numerous appliances with gorgeous styling, good consumer features, and if you're lucky enough to have the appliance work when it's first installed, you'll love the appliance. If you're not - and there have been a number of folks here who were not so lucky - their corporate customer service is best described as indifferent (and they aren't the only ones, there are certainly other big companies who are just as bad). If you have a good dealer, that can mitigate some of the more unpleasant aspects of dealing with LG Corp. directly.

I can't tell you about the dishwashers, but I do have a washer/dryer combination that works well. It is very quiet, but does not hold as much as they said it would. How about a Pisher/Paykel? I have 2 drawers and love it! 2 gallons of water on the econ cycle.

Last night we took a 12 inch dinner plate and a 9 inch burgundy wine glass to 4 different appliance stores to see how the dishwashers would handle our large 12 inch diner plates. LG was the best. Bosch and Asko are the worst. Others listed in these comments did not load very well for our 12 inch plates. The salesmen all commented that we were the first customers that actually brought dishes with them. Seems like a good idea. Suggested by Consumer Reports.

Re: Asko dishwashers-mine is 7 years old, and has needed some repairs, but otherwise it washes fabulously and is very very quiet. I recently looked at replacements and decided that what I had was better than newer alternatives. I would prpbably buy another based on its washing ability. My model is D1976. Its odd the extreme range of satisfaction and dissatisfaction reported on this forum with Asko dishwashers.

chefbecky,

did the stores have any mieles to try? the excella unit has a pretty flexible plate option. you may want to try the miele and see what comes of it.

did i mention we love our new excella unit? :)

i'm still amazed on what i can throw at it (food/plate wise) and things come out fabulous! ;)

The KA is nothing but a glorified Whirlpool. Dont buy!!! I have a Miele and wont ever part with it. The d/w before it was an Asko. Due to a remodel, my sister now has my Asko. Both have been excellent and neither have needed a service man. I would suggest Miele, then Asko, and finally Bosch.

Miele also has a special plate rack that can be ordered to fit larger plates. I have two(one by accident) and have never put it in the DW. Miele also has the fold down stemware rack that is part of the plate rack. Yes you wash stemware in the bottom of the DW or it can go in the top especially if you get a Miele model with the split cutlery tray that allow sections to be removed or moved around to accommodate tall items in the middle rack.

Regardless of what brand you look at when you take your dishes to try them, make sure to find out if the DW has adjustable upper racks and try adjusting them up or down to see how the plates will fit in.

What's wrong with Whirlpool? I had an Asko - it was only OK then it died after six years - about 10 years before I thought it should. I replaced it with a "Whirlpool Quiet Partner IV" which was ALMOST as quiet and cleaned about 100 times better - and was 1/3 the price to replace the Asko.

Some of the models might be noisy, I"m sure -- but mine is VERY quiet. YMMV.

IMHO, there's nothing wrong with Whirlpool or KA dishwashers. My old Whirlpool DW was still going strong when I replaced it after 21 years and my 5 year old KA is doing fine. It's quiet, and cleans and dries very well. All the brands seem to have their supporters and detractors on this forum!

Would like to add my two cents regarding the Asko dishwasher:

Purchased their basic model (D3112) back in 2003 to replace a broken KitchenAid. Our options were limited to either Asko or Miele due to a height limitation (previous homeowner installed a new floor on top of the old one; our choices were to tear up the new floor, tear out new coutertops, or go with the dishwasher that fit the space - not a difficult choice). We decided to go with the Asko based upon the fact that there was a $400 price difference between the two - and for us, that was substantial. I will say that it took four visits from the installers to finally get the job done right - but that's the installers fault, not Asko's. We quickly realized that very few people actually knew how to properly install our dishwasher - and if it isn't installed properly it will malfunction. For instance, the first installer wanted to undo the high loop even though the instructions said not to in bold letters. I pleaded with the installer, he said I didn't know what I was talking about. I showed him the manual (it states that if the high loop is undone, the warranty is void). He decided to do it the right way afterall, but as it turns out, he then forgot to pop out the plug in the disposal. He turned the machine on to test it and a few minutes later, my kitchen was flooded. I called the store manager and the following week I had a new machine, a huge refund, and a more experienced installer who did a great job. He also explained two very important things about European dishwashers: they only need a teaspoon of detergent and DO NOT PRE-RINSE the dishes! If you follow those rules, your machine will work wonderfully. He really stressed this and explained why: If you use too much detergent, the machine produces excess suds. But the machine can't tell the difference between suds and water, so it thinks there is water in the bottom of the machine and it keeps trying to drain it. Eventually the motor burns out. He also stressed that we should never buy the fancy pre-portioned detergent cubes - they're a waste of money and will cause the machine to malfunction (again, too much detergent). Four years later, we love the Asko! We follow his advice faithfully and have never had a single problem. We never pre-rinse and everything comes out sparkling clean. I love the condensation drying method - no energy required due to heat retained in the stainless steel interior. I love the minimal water usage. I love how quiet it is - our kitchen is an open plan that looks out onto the family room - trust me, it's super quiet. We love that it was so much less expensive. Granted, we chose the basic model - few options means fewer things that can go wrong. Also, for us, four cleaning cycles is plenty. We use the same cycle everyday. Love the cool LED light too - silly I suppose, but whatever. Anyhow, just felt it was important for people to remember that if a machine isn't installed properly or used properly, it will malfunction. That isn't the fault of the machine or the manufacturers. IMHO - most Americans are using way too much detergent, waste way too much water pre-rinsing their dishes, and fail to read instructions. Our Asko, one properly installed, has been fantastic. So much so that we're buying one to replace the piece of crap that came with our newest home purchase. I was sad to leave my Asko in the house I sold. BTW, I was sure to leave the instruction manual and my tips for the buyer. They actually contacted me recently to let me know how much they love the Asko too. Hope this helps everyone. And no, I don't work for Asko. I'm a science teacher.

I guess I would go for an LG based on a statistically valid opinion of one person. I'm going to be 80 in a couple of months and I have read CR off and on since its inception. My main complaint is that it seems to be run by a bunch of socialist ex professors using student labor to do the testing to prove their conceptions. When Americans all drove muscle cars CR harped that the engines were too powerful for the brakes. When Toyotas first arrived with junk parts throughout CR raved about them because they felt they were what any sensible nation deserved to drive. Read their toiletpaper reviews. My god, anybody with 5 bucks could test all the brands for himself and discover that their favorite brand (Charmin Ultra Soft in my case) is better than the CR favorite. But I am at a disadvantage. I don't have to worry about social justice or green stuff just how well it works. OH, some of you have set a old man off again.