All we had was a verbal description while standing in the room. Never had a sketch or anything tangible to approve.

What's "common sense", "obvious" and "hideous" to you isn't necessarily that way to everybody else.

Both you and the builder are at fault.

Worthy, when we've asked for documentation of any of these types of verbal things, we've been told, "I've been building houses for 20 years and that's not the way we do things." Or, "I've built over 80 houses and you're the only people that want something like that."

Back in June, we did the electrical walk through and expected to have an annotated plan to review. We kept asking and waiting for such a thing & were finally told that's not the way it's done. So we said, well, just do something like take a photo of the large blueprint the electrical contractor must have marked up. We were told that the only record they had was the sharpie markings they made at the actual house. And, to get something like what we wanted they would have to go out to the house, write it down & then charge us $200 to do so.

So, we've tried to do what I think is the sensible thing and have documentation of what decisions are made and we can't get it. There are only verbal agreements which are subject to memory and different interpretations. My issue is why are we always the one's at fault when this happens? It's a two way street, but we're always the ones who have to pay.

OK, here is another frustration: when we do try to document things, it is ignored, even though we were asked to supply the documentation. Two months before the trimwork began, I modeled what we wanted the trim for the master bedroom fireplace to look like and e-mailed off several rendered views. When we were there a month ago, we stood in the room and described what is should look like and referenced those "pictures" as they like to call them. When we got actual photos from our neighbor, the fireplace was way off from what we modeled and even our neighbor said it wasn't very attractive. Same thing happened with the pediment for the great room cased opening. The builder also wants to charge us for changing the MBR fireplace to what we asked for even though he had not raised an issue with it for over 2 months.

Now, I would like your honest opinion, as a builder, would you accept work from your trim carpenter like the above where there is that peculiar jog in the crown molding at the side of the chase?

Thanks - Jo Ann

"I've been building houses for 20 years and that's not the way we do things." Or, "I've built over 80 houses and you're the only people that want something like that."

Sounds like what sub-trades have been telling me for years! But they're even blunter. "Frankly, I've never heard of that. Are you sure you've ever built a house before?"

For my first two builds, the lender required me to hire a project manager. As it transpired, the one I hired put virtually nothing in writing, was terminally disorganized, flustered when more than a couple of trades were in the houses at a time and treated all questions as challenges to his authority. He used those "skills" to move into teaching and has been a principal for a decade now.

Architectural plans can be as complete as you want, including all electrical and design elements. It's too bad this wasn't done in your case.

would you accept work from your trim carpenter like the above where there is that peculiar jog in the crown molding at the side of the chase?

No.

If the builder or his manager is not on site a lot, the trades will make their own decisions on the spot. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good.

If it is not what you asked for, they should fix it. SHOULD. Without things in writing, you can't demand too much..... but halting construction will send a strong message.

Good luck. We have had our ups and downs in our build as well, and I completely empathize with your situation.

joann- maybe it's the angle of the pic you posted, but it looks to me like the framing of the ceiling was off by the thickness of the drywall at the chase, and that they tried to make up the mistake with the dopey trim that causes the jog in crown molding.

Is the sub saying that they had a meeting with you at which you agreed to maintain the beam size across the ceiling and make up the "mistake" with this jog?

Did the same sub frame out and drywall the room and the ceiling? If so, they goofed up.

I am a trim freak and this would make me crazy. In my book it's a "rip it out and fix it" issue.

I would stop work until the builder is back. You shouldn't have to be battling this out with the sub on your own.

Often times a peaceful resolution is to split the costs despite who is at fault and move ahead.

DH got home last night & I have some better pictures. It may be difficult to see, but DH says that the flat board on the right hand side would be flush with the wall of the chase if that tacked on board were removed.

We live a two day drive away. When we were there, last month, the framing & drywall were done, but there was no trim, yet. We were never told that there was a "mistake" or a mismatch that needed to be compensated for.

Framing & drywall were two different subs. This really needed to be done in an integrated fashion so that each sub knew what the other was doing and what each needed to get a good end result. That is the GC's job. Unfortunately, we've been serving that role from hundreds of miles removed on more than one situation.

It will get fixed one way or another, but I'm livid at the thought of having to bear all of the cost. As I said, DH is being told that we agreed to doing it the way it was done. Personally, I think that is a line of BS to cover up for what was done. In that same conversation, we said that we wanted a very simple trim on the interior of the coffers and that we didn't want elaborate crown molding.

Here is a closeup of what the ceiling looked like after the sheetrock, just before the above conversation on how it would be trimmed:

Here is a picture after the MDF was put up and prior to the interior trim:

You can see that there is a gap between the MDF & the ceiling which couldn't be covered by the simple trim they wanted so they had to use the deep crown. They did it the way they always do it (Upstate SC is big on very, very elaborate crown molding for coffering) and ignored what we had discussed.

I agree that splitting the difference would be a good compromise for this kind of situation, but this isn't the 1st or even the 2nd time something like this has happened. And we're always the ones at fault and the ones who have to suck up the cost.

Our plan showed exterior sconces flanking the French doors that lead from the dining room out to the front terrace. We got some pictures after the electrical walkthrough and couldn't see boxes for those sconces. We were told that we didn't ask for them during the walkthrough so they weren't put in. Even though there were on the plan, they hadn't been budgeted for in the electrical bid. So, it was our fault that they weren't there & we had to pay to put them there.

The plan clearly has a window seat in the bay window of the guest bedroom. When we were there last month, we noted that even though the sheetrock and floor were in, there was no window seat. First I got, well why didn't you tell us you wanted a window seat. I replied that it was on the plan so I expected it to be there. Then is was, well this should have been part of the cabinetry. I said that I didn't want it for storage, I just wanted a place to sit. Anyway, the cabinetry bid didn't include a window seat so that means that it had to be framed, rocked & trimmed. Builder didn't even look at the cabinetry bid to see whether or not the window seat was part of it. Finally, it became our fault because we hadn't pointed out that it wasn't framed during the MEP. Well, there were still a few things left to be framed at the MEP, so I figured that was one of them.

Anyway, you get the tenor of what has been going on. So, yes, I would like to be reasonable, but I'm fed up to the gills with being run over all the time. Right now, I feel at flat a a pancake.

Thanks, again, for tolerating (or not) a vent.

Jo Ann

As much as most trades hate having the homeowners around, it's a necessity to catch many of these 'non-conformances'. Being as far away from the build as you are, this is the challenge and it'll be become more intense as you proceed further into finishing. I'm grateful I could be around everyday but am quite in awe of what you both have accomplished practically by remote.

One option for the interior of the coffered ceiling is a 2 inch cove moulding. This is something we discussed when we were talking about trimming ours out. It is very very simple, small,would cover the gap and would probably give you the simple look you want.

I think it might be time to regroup with the GC and let him know that you want precisely what is on the plans and if it is not on the plans and they have a question that they should receive written instructions from you before proceeding!

dyno - thanks for the compliment, I guess I should keep this in better perspective. I guess I figured that if we can deal with having people orbiting 200 miles above us in space with teams spread all across US and international partners from cultures as diverse as that of Russia and Japan, that a house in SC while we're in Houston would be a cakewalk rather than a spacewalk. LOL!

athensmom - ha-haha-hahahaha, now you really have me laughing. (Yes, I'm losing it.) I wanted the entryway to have a cove ceiling and I was even willing to accept the shadow lines and do it with 12" deep cove molding. They just brought our more and more crown molding to get it deeper. They had no idea what a cove was until I drew the profile on the wall. Pitiful!

The GC is out-of-pocket for this week, so we'll have to try to muddle along until next Tuesday.

Thanks - Jo Ann

P.S. DD got accepted to UVA Law by deferring for a year, so she's living with us & working 'til next fall. I was talking to her about what is going on & she asked if such & such a thing was in the contract. I said the contract did speak to the issue. So she said to me, "Well, you should have had a better contract." Oh, she's gonna be a pip as a 1L. (Of course she's right.)

drjoann said: "We were told that we didn't ask for them during the walkthrough so they weren't put in. Even though there were on the plan, they hadn't been budgeted for in the electrical bid. So, it was our fault that they weren't there & we had to pay to put them there."

I have similar examples from my build. For example, my plans call for two laundry rough-ins, one upstairs and one in the basement. After the electrical and plumbing rough in, I told the builder that the basement laundry rough-ins weren't done. He did them and then asked me to pay for them because they "weren't something he budgeted for." I told him that they were on the plans and, therefore, that I shouldn't bear the cost.

After several of these types of situations, I came to realize that this must be a very typical thing builders do to see if they can get you to pay for some of their costs.

Oh, Jo Ann, tell your DD congrats! I was accepted to UVA Law a little over 30 years ago, and it has been a life long regret that I chose to attend another law school because of finances. UVA Law is special.

I have followed your posts and think you are building a beautiful home with lots of detail that will require special attention by the craftsmen. How much of that detail is on your permitted plans? On my set there are a ton of details about each molding, and there is a ceiling detail sheet that clearly shows where each beam in the coffer starts, how each cove is shaped, and other special treatments like the groined ceiling in the entry.

My builder and the framer laid out the framing plan on the slab and laboriously checked every dimension. They alerted me to some adjustments that needed to be made on some openings because allowances for drywall thickness had not been made by the architect. (BTW, I was shocked to learn that, but I was told it was that way on every CAD produced plan) We talked about the decisions that needed to be made by me, and they made the adjustments that did not affect openings. For example, the framing/drywall sub told me that he was dropping the elevation where the groin curve would start because he needed extra space to make the curve substantial enough to produce a good visual result.

I am sharing this with you because I think the way it was handled by my builder and the sub was what we all should expect when we build a custom home.

Your builder is your on-site inspector, and he should enforce workmanlike standards on the tradesmen he has selected. He is not relieved of his obligations just because you and your husband are technically savvy and nice people.

Like Dyno said, there's lots more to do on the house. I hope you and your husband hold his feet to the fire on the things that have gone awry.

Good luck working this out with your builder, and congrats & good luck to your daughter at UVA Law. It's a lovely town and great school. Although, has she REALLY thought long & hard about law school?? I can't think of one attorney these days that is happy with their decision to practice law. I'm married to one who is in big law and who has not made it home from the office one single night in the past 6 months before midnight (he is in the office by 8 am most mornings) and has pulled probably 25-30 all-nighters in that same time frame. Also, even though firms have lifted their hiring (and deferring) freezes, the environment following the extensive layoffs is not exactly warm & fuzzy. I'm sure that she has done her due diligence researching the field but tell her that the bitterlawyer videos are funny b/c they are true. :(

Well, praise the Lord and pass the ammunition! The builder (on vacation & unprompted by us) called the trim carpenter and told him to fix it. I bet that jog was bothering him, as well, and he didn't want to just accept it.

Thanks for all the support. I really appreciate it. If we were ever to do this again (which we shouldn't because this is our retirement home and we love the location and the design of the house), I would make sure that the drawings, spec, contract, whatever were as tight as an gnat's you-know-what.

I would never have done my day job the way we managed this. I knew better, but there were other pressures that I couldn't resist to move forward before we should have. Live & learn.

DD is going to be poor for I don't know how long because she is taking on all of that debt for law school, but wants to work in the public sector (human rights and/or immigration law). At the beginning of the year, she went off to Australia for training and then did outreach in Mexico City working with the poorest of the poor (residents of the world's largest garbage dump slum). From what she saw interfacing with the local government, she realized that the best-highest use of her talents was to go to law school and become the voice of the voiceless and friend of the friendless. I hope she doesn't burn out, but how do you tell a kid not to honor the values you've tried to instill in her?

Thanks - Jo Ann

It hurts to see detailing go wrong in the hands of an unsophisticated trim carpenter. I spend about a third of my time making sure details like this look right but when an owner doesn't want to pay my construction phase fee all I can do is draw it well and hope for the best. Fortunately, it all look much better with a few coats of paint.

If your daughter is doing what she loves she will make it work.

Joann,

After reading the thread you sound like a person who is polite, professional and wants to have clear expectations on both sides to avoid problems like this. You also take a great deal of pride in your house and messed up trim work will drive you nuts long term- me, too (at least with regard to trim, can't say much about being polite or professional by the time we were done ;) Here's the thing we discovered mid-way through the build which you are clearly already hearing...."You know- NO ONE ever needs drawings for this." "Good, glad we talked, so we're all set with this and that, right?" "You know, why don't you wait until we're finished drywalling/ taping/ trimming/ painting/ plumbing/ yaydayadayada before you comment on the work. It always looks different and better when it's finished." To which I responded, "Really, gosh, I must just be a pain in the A$$- do it anyway please." and "You'll see my email on this later today to summarize our discussion" and "We don't want to wait until it's done, because it will be SO much harder to fix then, don't 'ya think?"

We also built remotely and the builder knew he could get away with murder because we only visited once a month. Then they put their ducks in a row the day before we got there. Quite simply, I think they are trying to intimidate/ embarrass you by insinuating that you "aren't nice" so you just take them at their word. And every single time that happens- if there's a mistake- you will pay dearly. It seems that in the construction world- the more vague the agreement is- the more "latitude" the sub or builder has with regard to $$ when there's a change.

I have hundreds (maybe more) emails documenting everything. Tedious- absolutely...but I just made it part of my routine after every meeting/ call. I suspect maybe you're already documenting things more?

I agree with mdev. Even though they don't want to provide documentation, I would. Whenever we talked about anything, I emailed my GC a picture of how I imagined it- so there was no doubt. I drew countless sketches.

macv - I would have been happy to pay the designer to draw up the details, but she pretty much wanted to be done with the project. We had a meeting with designer, builder & us just before we went to contract to go over the plan. I had a list of questions room-by-room and many of them had to do with the trim details. We kept being told that we would work all of that out as the build progressed. (Plus, the designer had snarky comments & a few eyerolls about me and my lists. I'm sorry, but lists are a good thing and make it easier to communicate and manage a process.)

On that early trip to SC, we met with lots of suppliers and made choices to go the ARB. We specifically asked to meet with the trim carpenter to get a feel for how the details were handled. We were put off. Asked to meet him, again, when we were there for the MEP. Put off once more.

mdev - Polite? Moi? I'm flattered that I come off that way. Even 20 years in Texas has only put a thin veneer over the Jersey girl core. I just have learned to hide it pretty well. I think DH was afraid to take me up there on this trip because he knew I would go all "Hoboken" on the builder's sorry butt which is just what he needed. Oh, well.

Yes, the builder is trying to make us feel bad, so we cave. At this point, I'm so over that. I haven't even gotten to the various tile fiascos, but we are getting the line of "It will look just fine when the shoe molding is on." Well, if is doesn't look fine, it will be even more money, time and trouble for him to fix it then.

Oh, and I do send e-mails with the various issue and problems listed out in bullet form and the rationale for what I am saying. I get complaints that my e-mails are too long and complicated. So, when there was a problem that need a lengthy explanation, I wrote it all out to document the issue and put an executive summary at the head of the e-mail. That still got ignored. So then I decided that I should write e-mails that have no more than 2 sentences. Those got a response, but many of the the action items were never executed.

pps7 - we've done all kinds of sketches and renderings. We even sent off a sketch for a platform for the W/D to sit on in the laundry room. The master bath has 4 windows in the gable over the vanity & DH had to do all of the coordination to integrate what the trim carpenter and the cabinet maker were going to do.

Over two months before the trim work started, I modeled how we wanted the bedroom fireplace to look and sent them renderings from various angles. When the fireplace was trimmed, it looked nothing like my rendering. We don't even think the builder showed the pictures to the carpenter. Same story with the pediment for the opening to the great room. I guess I should have modeled the coffering, but I'm not sure it would have changed anything.

Ya know, I appreciate that a custom house is a bit like what I do because each project is different and it's not like a tract house builder who turns them out by the dozen with only slight variations. That's why coordination and planning are crucial to producing a good final result.

Oh, yes, we've had our share of change orders, but I've done my darnedest to contain costs and even save money on other areas. The builder made a comment to us that his office manager said he would be owing us money by the time we're done. I think that irks him.

Thanks for the comments - Jo Ann

"flat board on the right hand side would be flush with the wall of the chase if that tacked on board were removed".

Amazing what 3/4" will do to a room. If the jogged wall were 3/4" back, the coffered ribbon would have planed in nicely. As it stands, if you remove the jogged ribbon and crown, ( the tacked on board), it will leave you just the wall space with no ribbon breaking up having a continous ribbon around the perimeter. Just my opinion, but I would leave the jog in order to keep the ribbon continous and intact. The intersection at the corner where the ribbon is mitered will now just end as a butt end at the coffered boxed end. Fwiw, we call that small crown moulding cut a slivered cut being only 3/4". Pretty tough to do to make it come out clean. Your trim carpenter did a pretty nice job of it.