That study talks about a LOT of things. Most studies do. The entire study in context really has nothing to do with whether or not Turface is better than sand or anything else, they were just looking at 3 specific plants - I think they were all cycads - in 3 specific substrates from which they drew a few ideas for future study about how to grow cycads. That's what most studies are really all about. Not proving something or disproving - but figuring out what the next question to ask might be. It wasn't a study about Turface, it was a study about growing cycads. Again, I have no interest whatsoever in a conversation about whether or not Turface is a good substrate. I concede that it is. I don't concede that it is the ONLY good substrate and I don't think you (usually) really believe that either. For me the point is moot because I have never been able to lay hands on it. Al. You do not need to prove anything to me. I trust that you've done your homework and you've come up with a good growing medium or two here. I don't disagree with you in any substantive way. I just can't use your gritty mix without altering it because of the weight (and the fact that for me, Turface has thus far been the equivalent of unobtanium). So, I'd be VERY happy if you would talk to me about particle size in relation to what I CAN get, which is the NAPA 8822. I hope that you will do that for me because that conversation WOULD be casting light on the subject. So in hopes that you will be kind enough to indulge my ignorance and give me the benefit of your experience in this area this is what I am wondering. As I understand it - as I have read in dozens of threads - with a gritty type mix there is advantage to having things basically close to the same particle size. Well I think that's actually got to do with any mix but I'm aiming for a gritty-like mix. But I get a little confused because I think a lot of the threads I have been reading are older and don't always match what I see in the Soils thread (current version). Plus, I keep getting the 5:1:1 (not gritty) mixed up with the gritty. In that thread it says gritty mix should use the screened Turface, which I THINK we have established comes in at around 3/16" maximum. I have no idea what the distribution of particle size is but basically the largest Turface particle seems to be about 50% larger than the largest particle in the small sample from the top of my one bag of 8822. That 1/16th inch difference seems small on the one hand but when I actually look at the particles it looms much larger. Or is that smaller? It just looks so tiny. Anyway. Here's what I've got to work with at the moment. I rigged up 1/2" hardware cloth zip-tied into a milk crate for my first level sifter, to sift out all the big pieces. Then I have a little "insert" of 1/4" hardware cloth to drop into that milk crate on top of the 1/2" hardware cloth for level 2 sifting and this gives me pieces that seem to be about 3/16ths and smaller dropping out the bottom. So if I am looking at this the right way round, I take the stuff that's left on top from Sift #1 and put it in my mulch bin. Bigger than 1/2" = too big for 5:1:1. Then I drop my 1/4" hardware cloth insert into the milk crate on top of the 1/2" and sift again. This is Sift #2. Then I take the stuff that's left on top from Sift #2 and throw that into the bin for future use in non-gritty mixes. That is stuff that is between 1/4" and a little less than 1/2" (roughly). Then I take the stuff that came out the bottom and sift the dust out of it using standard window screen. This is Sift #3. What's left on top from Sift #3 goes into the bin for use for making a gritty-like mix, with the Napa 8822 and pumice (because gravel is just too heavy and I can actually get pumice fairly affordably here). What comes out the bottom I throw into another bin for future use in making seed starting mix. This should give me bark for the gritty-like mix between roughly 1/16th and 3/16th inches to go with the 1/16th (roughly) to 1/8th" pumice and the NAPA 8822 of about the same size as (only flatter than) the pumice. In your considered opinion, which I value or I would not bother to ask for it, is that close enough in particle size between the squishy and the crunchy, or does the squishy part (bark) need to be screened down some more? I surmise that a 1:1:1 bark-NAPA 8822-pumice blend is going to be more water retentive overall than conventional gritty. I believe I can deal with that. If I can grow more food than I can eat in buckets of "pudding" (eg peat mix), I'm pretty sure I can adjust - it, me, or both, as the case may be. I'm just trying to start from the best point possible given what I have available. Ratios can be fiddled more easily and rationally given that particle size isn't standing behind my back making bunny ears. (eg, eliminate or reduce issues having to do with particle size to make everything else easier to deal with) I expect you may not think the use of the pumice instead of the Gran-I-Grit to be wise. I know you have reasons for using that that are good and reasonable but it just makes the mix too heavy for me to be able to use it. The pumice weighs less than half of what the grit weighs even when its wet. I have to keep the weight down. It bothers me that I don't seem to be able to get the NAPA 8822 - eg Axis DE - in a larger size - up to 1/4" strikes me as ideal for anything I'm likely to grow, but maybe I'm wrong about that. However it seems that other people have been reporting the old NAPA 8822 in the same size range I'm seeing and they're doing alright. So maybe its not that much of a problem. One thing I've noticed is that it seems like the folks who got the mushy NAPA 8822 reported generally larger particles, up to 1/4", than the folks who got the original NAPA 8822 in its unmushy form. Based on a small sample size and my poor memory. It was mentioned on the other thread about NAPA/Axis and I'm pretty sure I read the same report from a mushy victim in an older thread awhile back as well. Not really germane - but possibly interesting. The sad thing is that when I move back to the Midwest I may not be able to get the pumice affordably (or at all) any more. I don't know if Dry Stall is carried at any of the feed stores back there. If not, I'm going to have to find something else yet again for my gritty-like mix. *sigh* Just thinking about it makes me tired. This post was edited by zensojourner on Tue, Oct 28, 14 at 0:01

holleygarden, I LOVE your pond - beautiful! I agree with ianna, I don't think you're desirous of formality in your garden beds as much as you're looking for structure. The eye doesn't rest anywhere; there's no contrast. gardengal put it into words so much better than I could, about the usefulness of appropriate hardscape. Our urban lot was broken up by a lot of existing concrete, all of which was straight, hard lines. The few areas that weren't connected to one another, we used gently curving lines to make the areas 'flow' into one another. Although I know most pros loathe concrete blocks, they worked best for us as most of it was DIY. We have a sloping property, and the blocks enabled us to create clean-edged lines that were then softened with plants. Even the most rectangular beds are softened with overspilling plants without obliterating the basic structure. For example, I thought I'd have a terrible time with this shaded area. Houses are close together here (10' apart) and we had to put in a French drain on this side due to moisture problems in the basement. Here's an early photo: the LH side walkway and house is our neighbor's; you can see the gravel-topped French drain on the RH next to our house. My DH has already installed horizontal concrete block steps to hold the slope (it was all clay, slowly sliding down the hillside with every rainy winter) and log edging next to the French drain to hold compost which was brought in for planting: It has turned into my favorite garden bed, and I actually think it's because the limitations imposed by the hardscape give the bed a structure that it would otherwise lack: We created this short path to connect two rectangular concrete pads. Although we really like the texture of the gravel and rip-rap edging, I don't much like the constant upkeep needed as the weed seeds love gravel. But it's an example of creating structure appropriate to the plants around it, without a lot of formality.

WOW! (that's for you, Carl!) What incredibly creative ideas from all of you -- I have to confess that a floating platform above a sea of ornamental grasses would never, ever have occurred to us! :) As for the view from the house, I'm not sure of the answer to that. I would think that some of the existing plants at the top (the miscanthus in particular) might end up relocating to the bottom to open up the line of sight from the house a bit, but in general, I think she is more interested in having a beautiful place to putter about in. I do think a small sitting area down there is probably a goal in the end... maybe just large enough for a chair and a little table (for the wine glass!) (I keep seeing that under the wild cherry for some reason ... maybe the concept of some shade on a warm summer afternoon?) She enjoys gardening but does work, so doesn't have unlimited hours to devote to maintenance (hence the low maintenance constraint). I think she is viewing this as something of an adventure that she's planning to take in stages, having fun along the way (the only way to do it, IMHO). "Revealing" that wall is the inspiration to start thinking of all the wonderful things to do with it... Having said that, she is also an organic gardener/consumer, and I think part of her goal is to have more sun-filled space to grow her own veggies. I actually like the idea of a trellis ... maybe a rustic twig-type design since I know she wants an informal look and feel ... for things to climb. She could also go for a look more like the kitchen gardens at Monticello -- more linear, but with the pole teepees for beans, etc. Gosh... so many options! I think I may have set you all to thinking too hard about the invasives (which are primarily the multiflora, but she lives on the same street I do, so I can imagine there is also plenty of other stuff just chomping at the bit to get started in that space. I do think keeping things at bay until she can tackle the lower area is important, so either black plastic for a year (and focusing on the wall area and a bed along there for now), or else a ground cover crop to hold soil and bide time (love the idea of vetch or clover or something that could be turned under next year AND provide tons of nutrients at the same time -- very environmental, non-chemical approach to soil enrichment!) So getting the invasives out because they are invasives was not the incentive here (though that would be a noble one!) ... that just happened to be what had filled in/taken over. Could just as easily have been massively overgrown rhodies or something hiding that wall, but it was multiflora instead. The current concern with not letting them return is as much a practical matter of not wanting to repeat the cost/effort of clearing the area a second time as it is a question of eradicating them for the sake of the natives. (As for mobility issues in getting down to the lower area to pick veggies, etc. ... this lady referees ice hockey games (adult and youth) every week, plus does yoga. She's a heck of a lot more fit than I am, so getting down to pick things isn't a problem...:) Thank you all for some fabulous suggestions and some good cautions and caveats. I think the idea of taking photos throughout the day is a good idea, too. She did watch the sun's travel across the area, but it would be good to document it, since I know how surprised I've sometimes been to discover that an area I was sure got partial shade in fact was sitting in full sun all day by mid-summer. And yes, there is deciduous woodland surrounding this area. And plenty of deer! So it's an interesting space with a lot of potential...an adventure it will certainly be! Thanks to all for the thoughtful responses! Will post photos as this evolves. Would make a very interesting gardening blog...

Zep, I finally had some time this morning... so I downloaded HijackThis and followed your instructions to the letter. Here's the uninstall list. Now, my husband and I took a look at it and he said "if it's just installed and not running then it's not a problem". Is that true? 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) 2007 Microsoft Office Suite Service Pack 1 (SP1) Ad-Aware Adobe Bridge 1.0 Adobe Common File Installer Adobe Flash Player ActiveX Adobe Flash Player Plugin Adobe Help Center 1.0 Adobe Photoshop CS2 Adobe Reader 8.1.3 Adobe Stock Photos 1.0 AnswerWorks 4.0 Runtime - English AOLIcon Apple Mobile Device Support Apple Software Update avast! Antivirus Broadcom Advanced Control Suite Canon IJ Network Scan Utility Canon IJ Network Tool Canon MP Navigator EX 1.1 Canon MX850 series Canon MX850 series User Registration Canon My Printer Canon Utilities Easy-PhotoPrint EX Canon Utilities Solution Menu Cardiris Cisco Systems VPN Client 4.8.02.0010 Creative MediaSource Dell Digital Jukebox Driver Dell Driver Reset Tool Dell Media Experience Dell Support Center (Support Software) DellSupport DMX Update FileZilla (remove only) Free Solitaire 3D 1.7 Google Desktop Google Earth Google Toolbar for Internet Explorer Google Toolbar for Internet Explorer HijackThis 2.0.2 Hotfix for Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 SP1 (KB953595) Hotfix for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB947864) Hotfix for Windows Media Format 11 SDK (KB929399) Hotfix for Windows Media Player 11 (KB939683) Hotfix for Windows XP (KB942288-v3) Hotfix for Windows XP (KB952287) ImgBurn (Remove Only) Intel Matrix Storage Manager Intel(R) 537EP V9x DF PCI Modem Internet Explorer Default Page iPod for Windows 2006-03-23 IrfanView (remove only) iTunes J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 Update 10 J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 Update 11 J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 Update 6 J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 Update 9 Java 2 Runtime Environment, SE v1.4.2_03 Java(TM) 6 Update 11 Java(TM) 6 Update 3 Java(TM) 6 Update 7 Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment 6 Update 1 Learn2 Player (Uninstall Only) Macromedia Flash Player 8 MailWasher Free Microsoft .NET Framework 1.1 Microsoft .NET Framework 1.1 Microsoft .NET Framework 1.1 Hotfix (KB928366) Microsoft .NET Framework 2.0 Service Pack 2 Microsoft .NET Framework 3.0 Service Pack 2 Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 SP1 Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 SP1 Microsoft Compression Client Pack 1.0 for Windows XP Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia Standard 2005 Microsoft Excel 97 Microsoft Internationalized Domain Names Mitigation APIs Microsoft Money 2005 Microsoft National Language Support Downlevel APIs Microsoft Office Access MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Access Setup Metadata MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Enterprise 2007 Microsoft Office Enterprise 2007 Microsoft Office Excel MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Groove MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Groove Setup Metadata MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office InfoPath MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office OneNote MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Outlook MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office PowerPoint MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Proof (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Proof (French) 2007 Microsoft Office Proof (Spanish) 2007 Microsoft Office Proofing (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Publisher MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Shared MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Shared Setup Metadata MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Office Word MUI (English) 2007 Microsoft Picture It! Premium 10 Microsoft Plus! Digital Media Edition Installer Microsoft Plus! Photo Story 2 LE Microsoft Publisher 97 Microsoft Silverlight Microsoft Streets and Trips 2005 Microsoft User-Mode Driver Framework Feature Pack 1.0 Microsoft Works Microsoft Works 2005 Setup Launcher Microsoft Works Suite Add-in for Microsoft Word Modem Event Monitor Modem Helper Modem On Hold Mozilla Firefox (3.0.5) MSXML 4.0 SP2 (KB925672) MSXML 4.0 SP2 (KB927978) MSXML 4.0 SP2 (KB936181) MSXML 4.0 SP2 (KB954430) My Way Search Assistant NVIDIA Drivers OpenOffice.org Installer 1.0 Paint Shop Pro 7 Photo Click Photodex Presenter Picasa 3 PIXMA Extended Survey Program PowerDVD 5.5 Presto! PageManager 7.15.20 ProShow Gold Qualxserve Service Agreement Quicken 2007 QuickTime RealPlayer Basic ScanSoft OmniPage SE 4 Security Update for 2007 Microsoft Office System (KB951550) Security Update for 2007 Microsoft Office System (KB951944) Security Update for 2007 Microsoft Office System (KB958439) Security Update for CAPICOM (KB931906) Security Update for CAPICOM (KB931906) Security Update for Microsoft Office Excel 2007 (KB958437) Security Update for Microsoft Office OneNote 2007 (KB950130) Security Update for Microsoft Office PowerPoint 2007 (KB951338) Security Update for Microsoft Office Publisher 2007 (KB950114) Security Update for Microsoft Office system 2007 (KB954326) Security Update for Microsoft Office system 2007 (KB956828) Security Update for Microsoft Office Word 2007 (KB956358) Security Update for Step By Step Interactive Training (KB898458) Security Update for Step By Step Interactive Training (KB923723) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB928090) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB931768) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB933566) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB937143) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB938127) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB939653) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB942615) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB944533) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB950759) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB953838) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB956390) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB958215) Security Update for Windows Internet Explorer 7 (KB960714) Security Update for Windows Media Player (KB952069) Security Update for Windows Media Player 10 (KB911565) Security Update for Windows Media Player 10 (KB917734) Security Update for Windows Media Player 11 (KB936782) Security Update for Windows Media Player 11 (KB954154) Security Update for Windows XP (KB938464) Security Update for Windows XP (KB941569) Security Update for Windows XP (KB946648) Security Update for Windows XP (KB950760) Security Update for Windows XP (KB950762) Security Update for Windows XP (KB950974) Security Update for Windows XP (KB951066) Security Update for Windows XP (KB951376) Security Update for Windows XP (KB951376-v2) Security Update for Windows XP (KB951698) Security Update for Windows XP (KB951748) Security Update for Windows XP (KB952954) Security Update for Windows XP (KB953839) Security Update for Windows XP (KB954211) Security Update for Windows XP (KB954459) Security Update for Windows XP (KB954600) Security Update for Windows XP (KB955069) Security Update for Windows XP (KB956391) Security Update for Windows XP (KB956802) Security Update for Windows XP (KB956803) Security Update for Windows XP (KB956841) Security Update for Windows XP (KB957095) Security Update for Windows XP (KB957097) Security Update for Windows XP (KB958644) Security Update for Windows XP (KB958687) Shockwave Shutterfly Plugin Sonic Audio module Sonic DLA Sonic MyDVD LE Sonic RecordNow Copy Sonic RecordNow Data Sonic Update Manager Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Spelling Dictionaries Support For Adobe Reader 8 Spybot - Search & Destroy TrueSwitch Wizard Verizon TurboTax ItsDeductible 2005 TurboTax ItsDeductible 2006 TurboTax Premier 2007 TurboTax Premier Investments 2006 Update for Microsoft Office Outlook 2007 (KB952142) Update for Microsoft Office Publisher 2007 Help (KB957249) Update for Microsoft Office Word 2007 Help (KB957252) Update for Office 2007 (KB946691) Update for Outlook 2007 Junk Email Filter (kb959141) Update for Windows XP (KB951072-v2) Update for Windows XP (KB951978) Update for Windows XP (KB955839) VC 9.0 Runtime Verizon Broadband Toolbar (IE only) Verizon Broadband Toolbar Firefox only Verizon Online Help and Support Verizon Servicepoint 1.5.22 Viewpoint Media Player WD Diagnostics WebCyberCoach 3.2 Dell WexTech AnswerWorks Windows Genuine Advantage v1.3.0254.0 Windows Media Format 11 runtime Windows Media Format 11 runtime Windows Media Player 10 Windows Media Player 11 Windows Media Player 11 Windows XP Service Pack 3 WinZip X-Win32 7.1 ZoneAlarm ZoneAlarm Spy Blocker