My architect provided drawings of exterior trim, but none of anything inside. It would have cost me a lot more money to have him draw built-ins, etc. I designed all of those things myself (with help from trim guy). I don't know how others have done it, but that is how it worked with me. I liked choosing my own style for trim, etc.

there are details included for outside trim spec'd on our plans along with windows and columns and other exterior features. we selected the stone and siding. there is also a very "loose" drawing of where bookcases and other cabinetry might go ...but i'm not following any of that. i designed the baths, the offices, kitchen, mud room, etc... i never gave it much thought since i have very definite ideas about cabinet placement and type of moulding/interior trim being used. i believe a lot of the interior spatial planning is left to the homeowner or you can hire a designer. it took over two years to finish our drawings. if i expected them to design cabinetry and built ins we wouldn't have broken ground yet, i'm sure!

It appears to be an error. If the trim and cabinets, etc. are not drawn and specified they should at least be described in the Allowance section of the Specifications so they can be included in the contract amount with the design and final amount determined later. Otherwise, the contractor will expect you to supply and perhaps even install them or will submit a claim for an extra if he has to do it.

The note should probably say "see Allowance section of the Specifications".

Our plans included roughly 35 pages of specifications and guidance in addition to the drawings, but no interior millwork details, other than kitchen cabinet layout and elevations. Interior trim was not specified.

We did not expect anything like that.

Thanks all. It helps to learn what others have experienced. And thanks Mightyanvil, for raising the issue of specifications.

While we are still awaiting plans from the engineers for foundation construction and roof framing, the entirety of our plans from the architect consists of 8 pages. There are no specifications. I'm concerned as to how we can obtain bids with so little information. This project has just passed the one-year mark, so I'm trying to figure out how to go forward on our own.

The architect/designer will give you the level of detail you specify, right down to the location of each electrical receptacle. You get the detail you're willing to pay for.

I've never built from a plan that included more than four pages. (Add a couple of pages sometimes for engineering details.)

Where the client has wanted more detail, they have gotten an interior designer. I prefer that, so you can deal with a single decisive professional rather than an owner vaguely waving their hands in the air or suggesting patent nonsense.

For our own most recent home, I paid a colour consultant about $210 for a very worthwhile hour. Otherwise I would have stuck ourselves with the usual builder's beige I use. Of course, now that we've been trying to sell, we find our tastes are evidently far from mainstream. We set out to avoid many of the usual cliches. But that's what buyers want in order to assure themselves they're part of the "in" crowd.

Well, I'm afraid this is our first build and first engagement of an architect. The contract the architect drew up states that the "builder's set" of construction documents will include "material selections, cabinetry drawings, interior and exterior detailing," etc. It also says that the documents will "provide enough information for a home builder to bid and construct the project." I suppose all that leaves considerable room for interpretation.

I certainly have ideas regarding interior detailing, but I'll admit I was expecting some guidance. The whole process has been a profound disappointment.

If the agreement says it will include "material selections, cabinetry drawings, interior and exterior detailing..." then I would expect it to include that. I would ask him when you can expect the additional details. When he says they aren't coming point to the contract. And don't make final payment until you get them.

I agree with sue36. Go by what the contract states. Our architect was very specific with the drawings of the 2 fireplaces and he did put in the cabinet drawings, but we worked on that together. Walk through your plans very carefully and see if a bathroom door which opens into the bathroom prohibits a cabinet door from opening (one of our mistakes), make sure all of the switches are where you want them, and make sure the electrical for the outside lights on each of your door are the height that you want (another mistake we made.) Make sure you have the correct number of hose bibs around the outside of the house that you want--we added several more. Make sure the architect shows you on the computer how your house will look on the outside so you can see if the placement of the windows are where you want them--another one of our mistakes.

Is the Owner-Architect Agreement compensation based on a fixed sum or an hourly rate?

Thanks again for everyone's input. The contract is a fixed price contract up to the completed set of construction documents. There is provision for an hourly rate if we want him to oversee any actual construction.

The contract specifically excludes electrical, plumbing, and heat and air designs, so I wasn't expecting anything like that. I guess I'm just trying to get my bearings with regard to how to approach him about what to me appears to be a failure to complete the project as originally agreed. I genuinely appreciate your advice.

I would approach it as I described above, let him save face and make it seem like it must have been an oversight on his part. Give him the opportunity to step up and do the right thing. I hope you've held back some funds.

I am glad you did too! Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

I'm an Architect, and my firm specializes in residential design - here's my POV on the subject from 20+ years experience...

Projects go bad when expectations aren't equal. That certainly sounds like the case here. You expected more detail than the Architect (is he really a registered Architect?) expected to provide. It's something that isn't discussed "up front" nearly often enough.

Unfortunately, since most houses in this country are "designed" and built by homebuilders, most buyers expect the "detail" to come from them. And since homebuilders often hire designers or Architects to draw up the plans, they get used to providing limited services - which usually means just enough information to describe the basic design and to get a building permit.

You, on the other hand, probably assume that builders are working from detailed plans provided by the Architect or designer, which is not always the case.

And so the mismatch of expectations is thus established!

You are not to be blamed for not asking all the right questions from your Architect; it's his job to make sure you understand exactly what you're paying for. That's just good business, and in some states (like mine, Ohio) it's law to provide a contract outlining services.

As you've likely figured out, all Architects are not created equal - there are good and bad ones, like any other business. Your job is to research several firms, talk to past clients, get references, and visit jobsites.

That should give you a good idea of which Architect to choose, and what to expect when you hire him/her.

There are several "levels" of service Residential Architects can provide. I've already described one, the "bare bones" approach - often called "limited service", "permit drawings", or a "builder's set" - which is apparently what you contracted for, and got. It's hard to ask for more at this point; your Architect is expecting someone else to fill in the details.

At the other end of the scale is "full services". Most homebuilders will tell you that you don't need full architecture design services, but that's because it cuts them out of the "detail" part that they want to do, and because it usually reveals the "real" cost of building a house...but that's another story for another time.

Full services will give you all the detail you expected and more. What's important is that it puts total control of the design, specification, pricing, bidding, and building of the house in YOUR control. Which is probably what you wanted anyway.

Even better, it allows you to fully explore many possible designs, to learn more about yourself, and get in touch with how good design can reflect your individuality and enhance your daily life.

Full services are expensive, no doubt about it - as much at 20% of construction cost - but full services firms will tell you that the degree of control the Owner and Architect have in full services usually saves the Architect's fee and then some. A good residential Architect, working with an enlightened client, can often significantly reduce the construction cost of the project, while providing a better designed, more energy-efficient, better-looking, higher-value house that you'll love living in.

But back to you (sorry for the digression). You've already spent money on this, but don't make the mistake of thinking you can't get off this road. Your home is too important - if you're uncomfortable with what you've got, stop now and find someone who can get you exactly what you want.

It might be time to cut your losses at this point and restart the process. There's certainly a truly professional, full-services residential architectural firm in your area or somewhere nearby that will help you through the process of designing and building your dream.

This should be an exciting, joyous process for you, and it can still be.

Do this - put the project on hold, then read Sarah Susanka's "The Not So Big House" cover to cover before you do anything else (available at all bookstores). You'll be ready to start down the right road once you do.

Good luck to you and your family!

Richard Taylor, AIA

I always felt like I was shooting in the dark when, starting on this construction process, we were trying to find a good architect and then figure out what we "should" be paying him (same applies to contractors...that's a whole other story), and I always wished there was some sort of guideline, area standard, or even a public information clearinghouse to help determine this. So, maybe we can provide that information here (side note - wouldn't it be nice to start a separate thread about what others are paying their contractors and for what services?!) Obviously, costs will vary for different factors, such as which part of the country you're in, exactly what the architect's services cover, etc, but it may help to just have a general feel for various fees being charged for various levels of architectural services.

I'm happy to provide details of cost and services provided by our architect (whom I adore and am so grateful for finding!) He charges us $85/hr regardless of exact services (e.g. drawings, site visits, etc).

Before we hired him, he gave us a sales pitch and told us that we should hire him for 4 reasons - 1) He was good (and we had lots of proof of this from his past projects), 2) He was fast (again, confirmed through conversations with former clients and has since been proven true), 3) He was highly skilled and educated (his architecture degree is from Harvard) and 3) He was "cheap"...this was said in a somewhat joking way, but I would have to agree given what our final price is turning out to be for his services.

We asked him in the beginning if we could estimate what our total cost would be for a full set of working drawings, and he mentioned that they would be approx. $25,000 if we were lucky enough to nail the design down in the beginning of the process and didn't need to do many redesigns. The final set of plans actually came out a little under that amount, but since then, we've asked him to visit the jobsite frequently (mostly because our contractor needs to be reminded of what was spec'd in the drawings and we don't always trust that the contractor is building the house to plan) so, given the additional site visits, the final price for all of our architect's servcies will end up around $25,000. His working drawings were extremely specific and are about 30 pages long. He did many cross sections, all of our cabinet drawings, our kitchen layout and elevations, our trim/baseboard mouldings, and a full page of specifications (which we worked on together because I needed to price out everything to make sure we were able to afford what he was specifying).

With this level of detail, we were able to get a fixed price bid from a contractor, which has been much less stressful for us than the "cost plus" projects we've done in the past with former contractors. No doubt, our current contractor still tries to wrangle more money out of us from time to time, but we usually have the specs in the architectural drawings to back up our insistence that he do things in a certain way without charging extra.

On the "downside" (although I don't think it's too bad of a trade-off) our architect is "old school" and draws everything by hand so we were not able to get a 3-dimensional feel for our house before it was built. Also, it probably took him longer to make changes than it would have for someone who had CAD abillity. I don't know if this is true, but it's just a guess. Again, the tradeoff was fine for us and we love his hand-drawn set of plans and elevations. It took him about 2 1/2 months total to complete the design phase and have architectural drawings ready to submit to the structural engineer, and then another few weeks before the engineer's drawings were ready and the whole package could be submitted to the City for feedback, a few quick changes and then permits.

Although our job is not yet done, as a percentage of total construction cost, we'll probably end up paying our architect approximately 3.5%, which seems like an amazing bargain. I often tell him that he is worth far more than any professional we've hired on our job, and yet he is getting paid less than most of them. It doesn't seem fair!

Our situation may be unique because our architect is an absolute gem, but I thought it might be helpful to know our story.

Hope this is useful info. Best of luck.

P.S. I believe there is a standard AIA contract (which is probably what we signed with our architect although I'd have to dig it out to see), and there must be wording that covers all this stuff and provides specificity around what he or she will do in exchange for the exact fee or hourly rate...obviously that's the best agreement to use to help minimize misunderstandings and different impressions of exactly what work should be performed although I imagine it won't completely alleviate the potential misunderstanding or, worse, prevent someone from taking advantage of a situation.

Richard, thanks for your insight. The architect I hired is definitely a licensed architect. I think one problem may be that he really hasn't done much residential work -- I'm not sure anyone else in the firm has either. It's pretty unusual around here to hire an architect for a residential project the size of ours. I guess I'm learning why.

Susan, your post makes me want to cry. I genuinely liked and still like our architect, but the project has been a year of frustration. I knew going in he didn't have a lot of residential experience, but I thought we had a similar vision for the house, and he acted like he really wanted the job. I had some reservations, but he assured me that he was eager to work with me to make sure we got a house we loved. Well, as soon as I requested alterations in his initial rough floor plan -- I wanted the master bedroom on an outside corner for more windows -- he began acting like I was snatching food from the mouths of his children. I, hate to admit what an effective technique that proved to be. I should have walked away then, but instead,being a wuss, I settled for things I wasn't crazy about just to move on. I was rushed through the conceptual stage and then progress just slowed to a crawl.

Although we were initially told our single-storey, approximately 3,500 sq. ft. home wouldn't need structural engineering work apart from our partial basement, later we were advised that we'd need the entire foundation and roof framing engineered. This added about $10,000 on top of the $20,000 in fixed architectural fees --and whatever incidentals we've incurred for his visiting the site, etc. And now I've got house plans that seem to have less detail than I'd have gotten with a commercial plan, including what appear (to me anyway) to be fairly rudimentary computer-generated elevations that leave me pretty cold. I find myself wishing I could just start over but I really can't.

We'll make it work. Sorry for the long-winded vent. Our architect is not a bad guy, but something has certainly gone awry, and I'm frustrated with myself for getting us into what feels like a mess at the moment.

The post by rltarch is one of the most enlightened and readable regarding archtitects that I have seen in a long time. No chest thumping or pronouncements from on high, just pure straight talk and empathy for someone caught in a bad situation.

Thank you for that.

We had a combination of specification and detailed drawings. The specification was part of the contract and listed all the details for each room: trim, wall coverings, and floor type. The drawings - also part of the contract -had much of that same detail repeated on the plan - a lot of detail. I asked the builder about that and he told me that over the years he learned that none of the subs will read the specs - they tend to just go off the plans.

The drawings included a floor plan for each level including the basement, elevations for all 4 sides of the house, a roof plan, a floor truss plan, a foundation plan, cut through views of each floor at various locations generally where the roof line chnaged above. There were special detailed drawings for an outdoor deck with witch hat ceiling that had a lot of trim in it and a few other locations in the house (dining room, foyer and library) where more detail was warranted.

On the floor plan drawings - each room specified the floor type, moldings, window specifications by part number, and special ceiling details like coffers or trays. The kitchen only showed the locations of cabinets. We had a separate kitchen design drawn up with 3D renderings by the kitchen supplier. If you are planning built ins, you will need drawings for those too.

If you don't have those details written down in a contract then you may be headed for trouble. I liked the idea of having as much detail as possible on the plans because that is what all the subs get work off of - that is the document they use to bid each job.

The one set of drawings that I made myself was the lighting and electrical plan which I gave to the builder prior to signing the contract. I thought the builder had looked at the plan and factored the extra's into the cost of the house. Big mistake - that one cost me. Builder priced minimum code which really upset mewhen I got that surprise - 6 months after contract singed. The extra's wound up costing me a boat load of sweat equity and some money too. The HVAC was another surprise - lost some closet space due to large return ducting which was never analyzed. If I were doing it all over again (which I never will) I would have had HVAC and electircal detailed plans included in the build to drawings.

Remember this when building: If it isn't written - it isn't said!

Good luck.

Architects and other designers frequently make absolutely no provision for supply or return ducts. Often the return ends up eating closet space, as sniffdog found out.

Even though a full HVAC plan may not be called for, the designer should at least make provision for ducts for return air and between floors in multi-story buildings. Space for the HVAC equipment itself should also be allocated.

Provisions for ducts should be in any plan sold on a nationwide basis, or where the client has indicated that ducted AC will be installed.

The only reason our plans have space for the ducts is because I gave our architect a sketch of where I wanted them and insisted they be drawn in.

Hi Nutherokie,

I feel terrible if my post made you cry. My purpose was to try to start a discussion to provide you with more of a baseline or general idea of what others on this forum have received from their architect and for what price. I'm so sorry if instead it made you feel worse about your situation!

I realize the situation with our architect has been exceptionally positive, but on the flip side, the anguish and frustration I've felt working with the contractor we chose has unfortunately dragged down most of the positive feelings I have about the project by working with our fantastic architect! So, if you look on the bright side, now that you have a glimpse of how important it is to hire the right pros on the job, you'll probably not make the same hiring mistakes I made with our contractor and you'll work extra hard to find a contractor who's the right fit.

Also, since your architectural contract specifically mentions providing "material selections, cabinetry drawings, interior and exterior detailing" perhaps you can suggest that you schedule a time to get together with him to discuss what you have in mind for these items so that he can finish up his drawings and specs. I would assume that he'll need your input; otherwise, how will he know what type of detail you prefer? Does he have any idea of your tastes and/or budget?

Maybe that's an approach that would work - this approach assumes that he understands that this level of detail was included in his contract and needs to be provided in order to put the project out to bid with contractors and, as someone mentioned earlier, he will be able to "save face" for leaving it out in the first place.

If his intention/assumption is different, he'll come out at that point and tell you as much, and then you can point to the place in your contract where it mentions these items and you can ask him what his intention was to fulfill that part of the contract.

I realize that this can be intimidating and daunting...it's so difficult to work with professionals who often make it clear that they know so much more than we do as homeowners (and obviously they do!) but sometimes their insistence on doing things a certain way and leaving the homeowner feeling like a big dummy while also having to fight such an uphill battle (AND paying for the privilege!) is infuriating.

In this case, fortunately, you don't have to listen much to him tell you this is "the way" it's done - you can just tell him that it may be the normal way it's done, but your contract specifies an additional level of detail and you'll be looking forward to receiving that level of detail (of course, after a consultative meeting where he can get a better understanding of your tastes and budget). I don't know how he can dispute the fact that he should provide it when it's in his contract. He may point to the place where "millwork is excluded" but you can cross that bridge if/when you come to it. It seems like you've spent a lot of money and time up to this point, and it would be a shame to throw it all away.

I agree with Richard and others who let you know that many times, even after the architect's work is done, the builder/contractor is left figuring out the details, which is usually NOT in the homeowner's best interest. The builder will most likely not have any design background (although, in my experience, many of them have no qualms touting their supposed design talent and skill!), and you are taking a huge risk that your builder, left without specific architectural drawings and specs to follow, will make design errors that will cause you to cringe every time you see them. This is not the way you'll want to live!

I second Richard's recommendation to check out Susan Susanka's book, which I love, but if her ideas do not suit your vision or style, there are plenty of other good architecture/design books and resources that are equally as helpful...check out your local library (although maybe you've already done this, especially given that you're a year into this process). Also, I've found it helpful to subscribe to lots of design magazines (I like Dwell, Arch. Digest, Metropolitan Home, Renovation Style, House Beautiful and others) so you get a huge cross-section of styles to look at and can pick and choose from photos of what appeals to you. Maybe you've done this already and if so, it would be great to bring these photos to the meeting w/your architect so he can see what type of trim, cabinetry, etc you were hoping for...if he has a different vision or opposes your design ideas for any reason, he will probably try to steer you in a different direction, but the bottom line is that he should be listening to you and finding out your ideas - if not, you have every right to continue to force the issue! It will be uncomfortable but you need to do it if you want to continue working with this architect (and perhaps you don't - as heartbreaking as it would be, only you can decide if it's best to cut your losses, put on the brakes and start again later with someone else).

Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.

Susan3733, you're very kind. Your post didn't upset me, it just reminded me of how excited and hopeful I was when this all began. I've read books, hoarded magazines and haunted this forum for going on three years now, so I'm not lacking in ideas. When we first met over a year ago I gave the architect a notebook full of photos and descriptions of what we liked, what we needed, and a few wishes. Throughout the "conceptual" phase when I'd bring up details, he'd tell me it was "premature" and we'd worry about details after we got the first stage nailed down. Once I'd okayed the basic floor plan, it seems like he just drew up some exterior elevations and then it was "too late" to fuss with details. ARGH! So now I'm wondering whom to consult about architectural details since apparently they're outside the architect's job description.

I'm so sorry that your experience with your contractor has been difficult. I hope you don't let it dampen your excitement for your new house. It sounds like it will be wonderful. I guess this road is never perfectly smooth! Did I mention that two weeks ago we discovered our property is in a FEMA-declared flood plain?

Is the entire property in the flood zone? If the house site itself is not in the flood zone, either naturally or by way of fill, you should be able to get by with a flood elevation certificate.

Hi Creek Side. I don't believe our actual building site is in the flood zone but our property includes a creek that is in the zone. Unfortunately, we're in a rural area and (according to the Army Corps of Engineers) the base flood levels have not actually been plotted for the area. We have yet another engineer who is advising us on how to address the flood issue. He doesn't think we'll have a problem getting a permit, but wants to help us avoid issues with potential lenders, etc.

Sounds like you may have some experience with this issue. ; )

Yes, the property we are building on is similar. Part of the property is in a flood zone, but the building site is not. We are also in a rural area.

FEMA, who administers the National Flood Insurance Program, has flood maps and just redid them for the county we are building in. I pulled the current Flood Insurance Rate Map (FIRM) and made sure all interested parties had a copy. See the link for instructions on how to pull one via the FIRMette process

We had a surveyor do a boundary survey for us. At my request, he showed the cleared house site on the survey, which was good enough for the lender and the county. The surveyor indicated that in his experience we would at some point need an actual flood elevation certificate, which can't be done until the foundation is in place. Our insurer, who covers our current house and the bare land at the new property, said they would probably require a certificate to cover the new house.

We have no engineers and no Corps involved in our build.

Here is a link that might be useful: FEMA FIRMette Instructions

Wow! Thanks Creek Side. The city inspector says we have to have the certificate and that to get it we'll need to have the the prospective pad elevation determined and then have the pad elevation confirmed after it's been constructed. All of this would be done without ever determining what the base flood elevation is. That makes me nervous. I guess we need to talk with our insurer and a lender or two and see what they say.

I can't wait to try the FIRMette Instructions. Maybe that will help me make a little more sense of this all. Thank you again.

I don't understand how an elevation certificate could be required if there is no base flood elevation. I suspect there is some sort of misunderstanding in play here.

Well, it certainly wouldn't be the first misunderstanding of this project! Most of the time I can keep a sense of humor about it.