That's exactly it mtndredux. Why can't my GC find me a good tile setter and why can't my tile company do a good job tiling.

I always thought that there are 2 ways to get quality work: 1) do it yourself. As Casey's rug shows, that is always the best way IF you have the skill, because no one will care like you do. 2) Pay for quality. I thought this is what we were doing.

I would love love love to have the skill set to understand how to measure and lay out tile or do home improvement projects. I cannot overstate how much I admire people who know how to do things like this, who take pride in their work and who do it well. I would gladly and happily pay them large sums for their time because I respect and admire their talent. I, on the other hand, have to hire someone to come in and hang up paintings if I want them to be straight. I have no eye for details like that, no math skills to do the calculations and no patience to do it right.

So, instead, I do what I can do (work) and pay people good money to do what I can't. That's why I am so upset here with this.

LWO raises some other points we weren't even looking at or thinking about and those are going to impact the integrity of your home. You can't afford to leave those unchecked.

I'd be taking another look at the rest of the work being done. Maybe your GC just blew it on this tile crew, but I'd be needing a reality check about now. If you can't do that, you might want to have a home inspection done even though your construction is still in the works. Good luck.

Here are some more in progress pictures:

Please let me know of any problems you see. I have forwarded your exact questions to my GC live_wire_oak

I so appreciate the wealth of knowledge here that may help me to avert a major catastrophe.

The bathtub would drive me nuts because the tiles and grout lines don't line up. My aesthetic problem with the floor on the second bathroom is that there doesn't seem to be a center point from which the tiles are flowing from. Granted I can't see all the edges of the room but again I can't see any symmetry to the layout.

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here as I know nothing about construction - but in that same photo - those two pipes sticking out is that where the cabinets go and if so, unless you are doing a pedestal sink those triangle accents are going to be underneath the cabinets. Does that make sense to anyone?

Beagles, There is another forum on the 'net that is dedicated only to tiling. I tried to link to it. Unfortunately, we are evidently not allowed to link to it, as it appears GW identifies them as a source of spamming. (I got a real nastygram when I tried to post the link, threatening me with banishment from GW.)

They have a really friendly and helpful crew of tiling professionals there that would gladly comment on the tiling aspects your project. I am not allowed type the name of this forum, but you can figure it out by filling in the following blanks in these well-known phrases.

"_______ the Baptist"
"Like a ______ over troubled waters, ...."

Put those two words together, and a .com after it.

No blfenton. It doesn't. That last picture was an earlier version of the upstairs bathroom that now will have the tile rug that has been changed. It's still not right though. None of this is anywhere right.

Here is where we are. I have expressed my concerns, including those mentioned above by live_oak, in very clear terms. In response, my GC has set up a meeting tomorrow with the tile people to work on resolving these and other issues I've been having with them. I also received a nice note from the tile person apologizing and assuring me we would get this worked out. I'm sure he's not happy with me and you know what, that's just too darn bad.

Thanks Angie_DIY. I love the code :)

If I don't get some kind of clear resolution tomorrow, I'll head over there. I'd like to give my GC a chance to make this right before I start second guessing everything too much, since he hasn't let me down yet. If I don't get some pretty clear answers tomorrow, I'll head over there to find out details about all the wrongs committed.

You know, all the things that to me would seem so much more challenging than just getting some darn tile down right (like doing our beautiful trim work and cabinets) cost less and came off without a hitch. I guess I should be grateful and that no project is perfect!

I second Angie's suggestion about posting the installation pics at J* o* h* n* B* r* i *d *g *e.

I seriously think you should search out Bill Vincent. I don't know if he would be less expensive but he WOULD do the job correctly - aesthetically and structurally.

I would LOVE to get Bill Vincent, his work is true art. There's problems w/ that though. We signed quotes from these people that did not break down materials and installation costs. So, it's not so easy to just say "forget it, we'll take the materials go away." because we don't know how much the cost of installation is. I'm already trying and have been for 2 months to get them to agree NOT to install my beautiful granite and to just sell me the slabs (yea, don't trust them w/ the blue bahia, thanks!) and have not been able to get any satisfaction on resolving that issue. We're also sooooo behind on this house. So. Behind. We were supposed to be in by July 2011. Ha. I don't care about delays but my GC does and this is costing us $$$$$$ and we are already $200,000 over budget between additions and changes and unexpected expenses. The money tree is running dry.

We were very, very, very stupid to agree to these price quotes the way we were written. We have also never built a house before, and we signed that proposal and quote for them to do the work a month into the build before I knew anything. Naive and stupid but water under the bridge.

GC response is a very positive sign. Fingers crossed for you.

All of us have been through the learning curve. If you love your house when it's done that's what counts.

Thanks rococogurl. I just hope that we get it worked out without any more hassle or cost!!

Good luck! I also wanted to reiterate what was in another post above about the second bathroom with the inset large mosaics. I would not be happy with the straight run with no medallions against the far wall and the tub. It seems if they shifted the medallions over one row (toward the blank run where the vanity goes) it would look better. As it is, the door has two courses of tile with no medallions . . . there would be a much shorter area with no medallions (right in front of the shower only), if the medallions started at the first full row of tile rather than the second.

As it is, it looks like you intentionally ran the medallions only in the center of the room . . . I don't think that was the look you were going for and if it is, please ignore the above!

What do you mean by the far wall athesnmom? The wall on the left is completely covered with cabinets, which is why there are no insets there.

My current request, which it seems is being listened to, is for them to do scale-drawings and send them to me for approval. The last email I got from my tile rep was a request for my cabinet maker's drawing, so here's hoping!

Never mind, I see what you mean and you are right. There should have been one row of tiles from the door and then the mosaics so that they were one row over.

Casey,
Your bathroom floor is elegant. But is is also clever, because if memory serves, I think I have seen all of the tiles you used at Home Depot. Certainly they have basket weave and the mini squares, and I think they sell a black and white liner tile. Anyone (well almost anyone) can waste money and get a pretty floor. What's really impressive is that you created an elegant floor on a budget.

Beagles,
Your title is misleading, as the tile job in question in your email is not (breathless) $100K. More important, you are also seemingly unaware of protocol. It is bad form to talk numbers unless you have to. How is it germane to your question? And how is your husband's job germane? How is your current $200,000 overage germane?

None of it is. "We both work.","We are significantly over budget and concerned." How about those? You are a disembodied digital voice here, and we do not know you. By throwing around numbers and (supposed) status markers (whether your husband is meeting with patients or meeting with plumbing clients, who cares. He is busy. Aren't we all?) you can sound whiny and entitled. It doesn't make people want to help, fyi. This board is extraordinarily sensitive to any sense of braggadocio.

None of us can answer the heart of your question "who is responsible for doing this work". You made the contract, and you have that answer. I agree it should not be you. And whether you paid 700 or 7000, we all have a right to work done correctly. People on GW can help you understand what that means, and arm you to deal with your contractor. Or, they can roll their eyes and help some other poster. Just keep that in mind when you post.

i think that was diplomatic and adroit, and timely. A personality is a big part of any problem.

You know what kitschyKitch and davidro1, you can just refrain from opening my threads from now on. I have gotten plenty of other responses to my question from HELPFUL posters who are not looking to attack someone who has a question, and as several posters here have said in their responses, the fact that I paid a premium price for work changed affected their answer. I am very sorry, but it is ignorant to believe that whether you pay $100 for something or $10000 for something has no impact on what you can expect as far as service or quality. Yes, everyone has the right to expect the work is done right regardless of what they pay. However, when you pay significantly more, you have the right to expect significantly more than just the bare minimum of getting things right. It is germane to the question, just as the information I have given to other posters about the excellent prices of my cabinet maker is germane to those questions.

I wasn't mentioning numbers in a bragging way - look at my great $100,000 tile- nor was I mentioning my husband's job in a bragging way for heavens sake. I mentioned my husband's job to explain why we couldn't just get someone to cover the phones in response to another posters question. I mentioned being over budget to explain why we cannot just hire someone else.

But whatever, you go ahead and believe whatever you'd like. But remember the old adage "IF YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING NICE, DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL." Not one single other poster here has ever gone on the attack to me about anything and I have posted about a trillion times, so both your posts are more a reflection of you and your issues and problems then of me.

And davidro1, my personality is just fine, and I believe there have been many, many more threads on here where people have called YOU out for personality issues than me. Not to mention, let's not forget that my GC agrees with me and is taking care of the problem and the tile person apologized, so I fail to see how this is a reflection of ME having a problem.

A personality is a big part of any problem. It applies to me as well as to anyone. It definitely IS a factor. I think this is why the thread has had many people contributing to solutions that go beyond "just delay it till later". Supervising people is hard. Directing people is hard. Judging how much of yourself to show is hard. I felt that your "me" statements were typical of many newbies. Nothing unusual. I felt it would ultimately help you, after the hurt, to know that your "me" is high on the scale, is one element of the history, and is a factor in the resolution of your impasse. No big deal if I've been called out fro things in the past. Frequently it turns out that I was right. In my first post here I focused all my attention on your GC instead of on the tile layer, and that got "called" and now it seems that my judgement of the GC was valid. Yes, I have a fair amount of confidence in my judgement and yes I know it may be wrong or off. So what. Who cares. Laugh now. Don't be so angry.

Also, FYI, Kitschy, I started with saying "We both work" and someone suggested we get someone to cover the phones and that was why I indicated that it wasn't so easy as that. Responding to comments with relevant answers is called conversation. Not bragging. Nor attacking, which also happens to not be conversation.

I just have to chime in here. I'm not sure where kitschyKitch's last post is diplomatic or timely. It felt rude and unnecessary. Looking at beagles' pics made my stomach drop. I don't see the craftsmanship or materials that warrant that cost. I appreciate when people post numbers. It is relavent. Had beagles hired the cheapest "handyman" standing in front of the big box store, everyone would have yelled "you get what you pay for". Beagles never sounded whiny or entitled to me. I read all the posts and was really shocked when I came down to kitschyKitch's.
I've been a member here for almost 7 years. I used to be an very active poster. Three kitchen remodels in about 5 years aided largely by the advice and commiseration found on this board. I've found myself posting less and less over the years the tone has gotten uglier. Now, I mainly lurk. I know it's no one's loss but my own, but it's a shame. I have never gotten involved in a thread like this before, but for some reason the nastiness of that post really affected me.

OK. Done with this thread and not being drawn into arguments on the Internet with people whose opinions I don't particularly care about or respect. David, your judgment on the GC was not valid, he agreed with me. Try to read carefully. And again, I would ask you to refrain from any type of commentary on this or future threads that I may start unless you can say something nice.

Thank you very much to the posters who provided me with helpful and useful answers to my questions. As always, I got some wonderful assistance here :)

Thank you angc. I appreciate your response and comments.

I think beagles has enough to worry about with out the personal attack, has she done everything 100% right all the time ? Well we should know the answer to that. No one is perfect, and that goes for the ones bring her up short too! No one is perfect but lets stay on topic, really if you need to vent your spleen vent it on me I've been around the net since the days of newsgroups. I've gotten a thick skin and take to heart only what helps me, compliment or critizm. The "disembodied digital voices" people use show their true colors, nowhere IRL do you get such an insight into someones soul.

Beagles, I'm sorry that you are going through such a stressful situation with your tile. I have followed your build the entire time you posted and just love your details! You will truly have an amazing home to enjoy for years. This is such a stressful time, I just wanted to send (((HUGS))) your way and good (((VIBES)))! I enjoy your posts and feel that you have explained your situation to us wonderfully. You have eloquently and maturely stated your case and did not deserve to be "attacked!" Best wishes to you on finishing your build...it will be worth it in the end!

Beagles: I seem to remember seeing pictures of your dogs somewhere (maybe the "Where did your screen name come from" thread?). In any case, if things don't get settled, I volunteer to bring our three (mostly) Beagle hounds to join yours and we'll release them on the job site. If nothing else, tile setters, et al., would be licked into submission!

I could not have said it better than angc. I'm all for honesty and all, but KK's comments seem misplaced in this case. I think the facts and numbers that beagles posted were relevant to helping us understand her situation. If you read the thread, it was like a conversation -- the details cropped up naturally.

We have a great community here. It is true that great communities sometimes need to reproach a member who is acting out, as painful as that may be. However, in my humble opinion, this was not the case in this instance.

Peace to KK, Beagles, and D-Ro.

Thanks ladyshadowwalker, and mommyto4boys :)

kashmi you can bring those dogs over any time. My gosh are they adorable, they look like an advertisement for cute puppies! Do they howl? One of mine howls all the time about everything and the other won't ever make a peep unless her night time snack of sardines is late! Maybe we can get a howling chorus going when you bring them over, that's sure to make anyone comply with any demand!

These are my little puppers and they are the cuddliest beagles in the world (now I AM bragging, lol, avert your ears!)

beagles, I follow your posts and wish you the best with your remodel. It's going to be beautiful!

Love your beagles and yours too, Kashmi. I have a 2 year old blue tick beagle, Samantha.

Yay for just saying no to a thread becoming negative and adding something wonderful to it instead... beagles!

I have to honestly say i did not read every word from every poster but I think the real problem that got the tiler so upset is they forgot to put the "tile rug" down before they laid the tile. Now that they have to take up all that tile to do the rug, they are afraid of making another mistake and not doing it exactly how you want. they've already made their cuts etc and actually, at their cost, they will probably have to redo it all over. they tried to put the blame on you by not having a "design" when in reality, they must have misplaced it or forgot to do the rug part.

"People on GW can help you [o]r, they can roll their eyes and help some other poster."

SO true.

Beagles, hope your GC is getting everything worked out. Your darker beagle reminds me of one we had when I was young. Named Bugle. LOL I love the visual of the whole lot of beagles running the property keeping things under control. Thanks for a chuckle.

Brag away -- those Beagles are as cute as can be. Are they in their best poses waiting for a snack?!

Oh, yeah. A howling chorus at just about any time!

A cuddly Beagle (or two) in the lap always makes things better -- though a glass of wine in hand never hurts.

Aroooo!

I'm so glad I came back to check on this thread after briefly reading the attack posts this morning. I'm glad that you, Beagles, and others stood up to them. I even felt offended by one of Davidro's much earlier posts and sent you an email in support and sympathy as I've felt attacked by him myself.

I'm also glad I came back as I got to see such cute little fur babies! Beagles are so adorable! And apparently vicious?!?! ;)

nancy blue tick beagles (like all beagles) are beautiful, your samantha must be adorable!

pence, I think you are probably right. They did not plan for the rug. I've recently been talking to a decorator who did some consultation on paint for us and I also talked to someone else who used this company and both indicated that this company seems to have to redo things an awful lot.

Haha, Kashmi, they are waiting for their tennis ball to be thrown in that picture. You can tell their getting impatient too, but every time they do those tongue-out big grins, I have to take a picture! Do yours hunt, they look very official with their little harness on or are they just outside having a sniff?

I'm just waiting for the GC update now on how the meeting went, and hopefully all will be well and back on track :)

thanks breezygirl! I never got an email, as seems to happen whenever people email me through GW, otherwise I would have replied!

Yup, beagles are best known for being aggressive lickers and cuddlers and howlers and, most importantly, food hounds! Quite the scary breed!

OK. I think it's a little over the top to start forming support groups over comment threads.

Anyway, I wanted to return to some thoughts expressed much earlier in the thread. Short answer is, no, you are absolutely not expecting too much.

Beagles, now that we can see what your pattern was, I can tell you that any competent tile setter should have been able to execute it without a CAD drawing and without onsite supervision. Yes, you may have had to answer some questions, or accept a few details you wouldn't have chosen if you were there. But a layout like this is absolutely part of their job.

I watched my awesome tile guy do my bathroom last year, and I can tell you, I couldn't keep up with him if I took four years of refresher math and geometry courses. He was great at predicting where a little decision over here could make a bad, sliver cut over there. He gave me lots of choices and tradeoffs to choose from. But I went with his recommendations almost 100% of the time because he could think through things that I couldn't. Your people should have been able to do the same, and give you something that at least looked good even if it hadn't been exactly as you imagined.

Tile setting is an intellectually hard job, and it can't be done by idiots.

Yup, I agree Marcolo. I wouldn't have expected them to have every detail that was in my head, just something that looked nice for me to approve would have been just fine.

Still waiting to hear what the results of the meeting were...

"Tile setting is an intellectually hard job, and it can't be done by idiots."

I just felt that needed repeating. Both for Beagles, who is dealing with semi-idiots, and for the dozens or hundreds who want to know why their backsplash quote for the "simple job" is $900. It's a lot harder than it looks. And not many people appreciate what an art it can be.

Beagles, I'd be concerned about the waterproofing of the shower itself given these pics. Do you have any in progress photos of how they did the shower pan and walls?

Yes, exactly, GreenDesigns. Our backsplash was not complicated in that it wasn't a mural or design, and we had laid out our tile pattern for the contractor on a spread sheet. We thought it would be "simple." Once we saw the work that he put into making the job just right, we realized that we had misjudged in thinking it was a simple job, and didn't begrudge him a penny of the extra he ended up charging us.

About Beagles and about tile. Tile first.

GreenDesigns (& others) are so right about tiling being a thinking-person's job. A real pro understands his/her craft, geometry, and aesthetics. (Watching a good drywall person also inspires sufficient awe.)

The pups aren't hunters -- unless it's sniffing out food -- just pets. This pix is about two years old, right after we got the youngest (in the front). The Beagle rescue folks were going to stop by for a follow-up visit that day and we knew that they preferred harnesses to collars. The dogs hate the harnesses, and don't wear them unless we're going to the vets, because they are quite adroit at slipping out of their collars.

With good wishes for the meeting going well today and for the house project to get back on track.

Glad to hear that the gc and tile people recognize the problem and that they get that it was not you.

I can sympathize with expecting professionals to give you a professional outcome and feeling let down. I have had people tell me "you get what you pay for" without knowing what we paid or how much other bids were because we don't run around IRL talking about how much everything is costing. When they hear how much we paid, they tend to change their tune. We have serious issues with the workmanship and lack of completion by the gc and yet, his bid was not the cheapest. We chose his firm because we felt we'd get quality. I feel safe to assume that you did the same, and at the prices you are paying, have every right to a great outcome, not just a good one. It was relevant to know that you hired and paid for what should have been someone who is a tile master. I took no offense to you posting numbers and feel, in general, that the more we post numbers, the better informed we all are by hearing how much things cost, both high and low. It can be a reality check for someone in the planning stages. It also goes to show that if we had a higher budget, our stresses and problems with the reno would not have magically disappeared. One would think that by hiring at top prices that one would get top service.
In your case, they seem to have a conscience, so you have reason to be hopeful. If they screwed up by forgetting the rug, then it is on them to re-do. It is amazing how often the placement of things got done wrong in our house and needed correction. I'd be on site, communicate clearly, but things would go off track fairly regularly. I can't imagine how it would be to have it done long distance and involving more than a few rooms. What you are accomplishing with what goes right is a minor miracle ;)

The tile people may have been trying to see if you would forgo the rug and make their lives easier if it became too much of a hassle for you to get over there. They already laid out without it, so would much prefer you skipped it. Now they know it is important to you, they will probably work it out without much more drama. It is a fairly simple design and any tile person worth their salt should be able to handle it. Tiling is not easy per se, but it should be routine for someone whose profession is laying tile. If it is too difficult for them to figure out without a lot of guidance, then they need a change of career.

lascatx I missed your post before, what a great name for a beagle! I wanted to name my boy Barkley originally (which would have been a fitting name given how much he howls) but both my ex and my dad said "After Charles Barkley?!?! so that ended that idea!

"Tile setting is an intellectually hard job, and it can't be done by idiots." I completely agree with this. Again, that's what I thought I was paying for. Intellect. I saw a great t-shirt the other day that should be the uniform for all remodelers. It said "I can explain it to you but I cannot make you understand."

kashmi that's so great yours came from rescues. In the future, I would like a rescue beagle. If you are in my part of the country (PA, NY, NJ) I'd love to know what rescue you used because your pups are soooo adorable! Mine hate the harness too, I tried to put Bailey in one once and all he wanted to do was remove it. That and the Gentle Leader which he REALLY hated!

dianalo, my tile mess was nothing compared to what your GC did and stories like yours make me feel bad complaining about our otherwise problem-free build. I am very much crossing my fingers for you that you get the resolution you deserve in small claims court and get everything done to your satisfaction in your house.

We seem to have a good solution now. The white marble bath is being redone. There are drawings being done for our approval before any other tile are laid down in the bath with the rug and in all other areas where there is patterned tile in the house. The shower has not yet been waterproofed (water-appropriate drywall was already used) and will be done properly under my GC's supervision. We are well on our way to a happy ending and a positive resolution.

What a relief! I'm so happy for you. This is going to be some home and well worth all the frusration in the end. Can't wait for it to be finished so we can see the big reveal.

Glad everything is working out. Unfortunately, getting references and taking the middle or even the highest bid is no guarantee you will get what you should be able to expect.

I 2nd or 3rd john bridge forum. i found an outstanding tile setter there. fyi--i would post a question over there regarding your dilemma of figuring out breakdown with materials vs install costs...they might be able to help get you in the ballpark, so you can make a decision.

FWIW - if you're unhappy now with tile work, from my experience, you'll prolly be unhappy later and every time you look at the work after you move in. (tub photo where grout lines dont line up, looks pretty amateur; it's not even either on the grout line where wall meets floor). tile work can make or break a project.

I agree w/ you Mags438 but we do need to give them the benefit of the doubt that they will correct things, esp. now that my GC is overseeing much more carefully. Our GC has provided exceptional subs and work throughout this build and he's asked us to let them work it out and if we can get things done to our standards, I don't want to create an issue or fail to trust the GC when he's given us no cause to worry thus far. If we continue to have problems or issues, we will of course re-evaluate and consider a change then.

We adopted our three through BONES (Beagles of New England States). Rescue dogs are like potato chips; you can't stop at just one!

There's a group in your area that some of the BONES folks have worked with: Cascade East. The woman who fostered our most recent Beagle has also fostered two (and adopted one) from Cascade East.

BTW, I'm stealing your "tongue-out big grin" phrase. So perfect.

Thanks kashmi. I guess I shouldn't have asked because I just spent 20 minutes looking at all the beagles and getting tears in my eyes and wanting to bring every single one of them home!

We (or more accurately, my fiance) aren't in the market for another dog right now unfortunately (I'd have 10 if he wouldn't call off the wedding!) but I've book marked the site for when we can handle another, I'm glad to find an organization that does such great work and that's affiliated with the one where your adorable babies came from.

Thanks!

@kitschyKitch:
None of the tile was from home despot; the white subways on the walls were Lowe's, but all the marble floor tile was from The Tile Shop. It's only "budget friendly" if your definition is a materials-only cost of $20/sq ft. The gray mosiac is a marble called Perlato, which I intend to use again some day.
Casey

From the picture, it looks like they already cut the field tiles, and that is a big mistake. They have to start with the rug pattern, get it centered and then work outside from that. Otherwise the field can have some really strange looking cuts. You really don't want tiny triangle cuts on one side, and big ones on the other.

Their whole "tile must be centered on the floor" is what is giving all these headaches.

I have "rugs" on my dining and kitchen floor. It's far from perfect as I never tried something like this first. But it did require laying out the "rug" first and working the field tiles around it.

Kitchen in progress

Dining room in progress

Dining room grouted. I used darker grout in the "rug"

Doing a herringbone on the diagonal around a rug was quite a challenge. One big consideration was keeping it all lined up so the tile would match when you go around to the other side.

Wow macybaby. Do YOU want to come and do my tiles? Between you and Casey, I'd have the most spectacular tile in the world if GW people were doing all the work! ;) I would never have ever thought this was a first effort. So skillfully done and pretty!

And so sad that your first effort looks a billion times better than the efforts by my "professional" tile layers.