The only thing I feel this way about is the depth of our foundation. I felt the architect and later the builder/consultant were wrong with the depth they wanted to dig to for the foundation basement. I let them talk me in to it and I really feel like the house is sticking too far out of the ground. I fell like I was right and I shouldn't have doubted myself. It's not a disaster but it does make a difference.

ajpl - can I ask you how far out of the ground your house is?

Hmm, I'm not sure of the measurement but it looks like this:

We backfilled up to the level we needed but I would have preferred it to be only slightly sloped up to the hous einstead of the more pronounced hill we ended up with. Setting theh ouse down another 12 inches would have made a big difference.

We still haven't done any real landscaping so we are hoping we can minimize the effect when we do.

This isn't me, but my neighbor across the street's wish. She wishes that the builder had not talked her into finishing off their entire basement. They are selling their house because they ended up with 5,000 sf of finished living space when they had only wanted 3,500 to 4,000 sf finished living space and the house is too big for them. For her, it's hard to be enthused about cleaning/furnishing/using that extra 1,000 sf of space if you didn't really want it in the first place. Also, she doesn't like how their house lives. They have two kids. The teenage daughters "lives" on the second floor, she and her husband "live" on the first floor and their teenage son "lives" in the basement--they never see each other.

after reading cork2win's post I would like to comment on the relationship between a general contractor and an architect. Architects are like artists, they design without thought/knowledge of feasibility or cost. The General Contractor's job is to give you the bad news with regard to what the architects have designed. Many times, the GC is blamed for pricing on a project when really, the owner and architect designed a plan that is higher end than the owner can afford. So the statement about not letting the builder talk you out of anything is an inexperienced one. You need to decide what you are willing to pay for with your project and understand from the beginning that your choices are driving the total cost.

In reference to your first question, my home is architect designed and I wish I had not let them talk me into "garage door" cabinets on one end of the kitchen. They don't function well and make the countertop in that area unusable. They continue to design this style of cabinet for clients which leads to unasked for advice on hiring a certified kitchen designer to handle the plans for the kitchen areas.

Have fun with your project!

I would not pay much attention to what an architect 'estimates' costs will be! They are not up to date. Materials are all over the place -- costs changing all the time (usually rising, but not always). Architects are designers, not builders.

We also found that we had to re-read the entire set of plans every time there was a change. The most recent change would be made, but something that had been changed the prior week would have reverted to original. (I'm not talking 'change orders' with a builder working from a completed plan, but alterations we requested of the architect before the plan was final.)

One such mistake cost us a lot of trouble and money. Somehow under-cabinet lighting in the kitchen was wiped off the final plans -- and and was added to the laundry cabinets! I didn't realize this until the cabinets were hung and there was no electrical supply in the walls behind them!

bellamy, maybe I need to clarify, because my opinion is certainly not an inexperienced one. I've been living it for the past year now. What I'm saying is, that by the time your architect has finished the plans and you're at the point of building (which may be an assumption on my part as that may not be what the OP meant), you already know what the house is going to cost to build. Yes, architects may draw something that you can't afford, but you find that out when you put the plans out for bid. Once you settle on a final design and get actual working drawings, I think it's a mistake to let the builder talk you out of anything. All the "talking out of" should be done during the contract phase where final drawings are being changed and prices/contracts being adjusted. Once the plan is done, prices are set, and official construction drawings are done and construction begins, it's a huge mistake the let the builder talk you out of something. This assumes that your architect is competent and has consulted with an engineer to be sure his drawings can actually be built of course.

I'll give you just one of our examples. We have several roof decks. The architect specified exactly how the roof decks were to be built, how the beams of the house should be set up in order to set the proper pitch so that the roof deck drained properly. Of course the builder set the beams incorrectly, and when they realized it they talked us out of putting the proper pitch on the roof because that involved cutting joists and they flat out were too lazy to do it, so they talked us into doing it with the roofing material instead, which ended up being a huge mistake and a problem we're still dealing with.

We got talked out of it because we're not architects and we're not builders and we felt bad for them. We should have stuck to what our contract says and when they asked us we should have said "you're supposed to build it according to the plan" and left it at that. They changed it on the fly to suit them, not us, and it was a big mistake.

I also want to comment on this:
"Architects are like artists, they design without thought/knowledge of feasibility or cost."

That may be true of some or most, but not all. An architect who draws house plans without any thought/knowledge or feasibility of cost is a waste of time in my opinion. Why hire someone to design something you'll never be able to build? Our first conversation with our architect was about budget, and anyone seriously on a budget should have the same conversation with any architect they're thinking of hiring. Architects don't come cheap, don't waste your time and money letting them design fairyland.

Yes, we all *think* an architect should be able to design to a budget, but there have been many posts on this forum supporting my statement that they aren't good at it. Perhaps some have had better luck working with a 'Design/Build' group.

Thanks to all for your thoughts. Indeed, I have read that you should tell an architect what you want and then "get out of their way", ie let them be creative which is some (not all) of what you are paying them for. I was wondering just how true this should be. Hence the reason I asked the question and the answers are telling. It still seems one should allow the creative process but an architect who designs something way out of budget (assuming the budget was clearly spelled out in the beginning) does seem like a waste of time (and money).

I'm an engineer by training. We hired an architect who was an artist in his spare time. We were like oil and water...and that's exactly what I was hoping for.

A house should be a marriage between form and function, beauty and practicality. My architect was focused on making the house beautiful and I was constantly asking, "Yeah, but how's that gonna work when we have houseguests? Won't that increase our energy bills? Won't we have to walk a long distance to take a leak?". We had some very confrontive discussions but I think I got a much better house because of it. We were each other's alter-egos.

Before we started, I had already designed a U-shaped house using a software program and then made an exhaustive list of things we wanted in the house. Several days after our first meeting, the architect said, "Well, I think that an L-shaped house will work perfectly on your lot." I told him that if he can show me that an L-shaped house would allow me to achieve everything I was able to achieve with my U-shaped design, then I'd buy it. We have a beautiful, U-shaped house. But the improvements he made in my design were vital to how beautiful it came out. And, to be balanced, he came up with a number of practical ideas and I think I contributed a few things that enhanced the house's beauty.

On the subject of architect/builder roles, I really wish I had contracted with my builder before the design was finished. He made many contributions but some really important ideas couldn't be implemented because we were too far along to add them. And recognize that the capacity of an architect or builder to add value is highly individual-dependent. Bellamy says that architects are like artists and that was certainly true in our case. But I wouldn't begin to assume that to be true in all cases. In interviewing an architect, builder, kitchen designer, interior designer, ask whether they tend to align more with the practical or aesthetic. Then ask yourself the same question. If you want an optimal design, hire your opposite...but be prepared to have some disagreements before the design is finalized.

Bob

Bob, do you have any pictures of your house and /or floorplans? I'm also thinking of a U shaped design. I also like a sort of compound plan, separated by a dogtrot, which could be done with a U. Overall looking for long, low and organic in feel, so I'd be curious to see your design. mmueth@siumed.edu is my email.

Only flat paint on the walls (we wanted eggshell) and hardwood floors. Our walls can't be washed and our floors are scratched.

mimi72, I sent you an e-mail with an attachment. Let me know on this thread if you don't receive it.

Bob

An architect that doesn't have a good foundation for costs/schedule/feasability isn't a good architect. The same could be said of builders. There are good architects and bad architects. Unfortunately most of the good architects can't be bothered with residential designs unless its a big project. So, yes, if you are working with an residential architect - you generally aren't working with the cream of the crop in the profession.

That being said, there are a lot of good residential architects out there. I wouldn't really call them "designers" per se. There are architects that are very very good on how they can adapt you to use your space. Unfortunately their working method is foreign to many people who don't work with architects. You want to talk to an architect that will listen to how you live and adapt/build a set of plans to that. If the architect isn't listening to you - then move on.

Now, in terms of "out of touch" - I can sort of concur. But if you take the entire group of architects and the entire group of builders - you are much more likely to be cheated out of your money by builders than architects. . . So be careful where you place your trust in home building.

Anthem, I don't know whether it's appropriate to be quite so doctrinaire when defining what makes a "good architect". Frank Lloyd Wright has a reasonably solid reputation as a pretty good architect yet most would consider his homes and buildings among the worst-engineered of their day. His cost forecasts were notoriously low, he rarely saw a completion close to schedule and many of his designs had to be thoroughly reworked on the job site because they were entirely unfeasible.

Despite that, his designs were pretty cool! As many a woman will tell you, looks can carry you quite a distance.

Bob

With Frank Lloyd Wright(and some others), you are talking a very minor 1% of architected/designed projects designed to be unique and push the envelope. They were generally commissioned to be unique. In the 99% of usual cases, the architect is about designing a space that fits the use of the client not an open "design me something unique".

Keep in mind that the preferred way of working with architects is that they oversee the entire project where the GC/builder reports to them for all issues(including costs). So yo can really hold their feet to the fire as well. Unfortunately most homeowners dont do this or use architects who dont generally perform this.

Architects, as professionals, have a fiscal responsibility as part of their "job" to keep up to date on building costs and material costs. If they are chartered with designing a structure to meet within a specified budget, part of their job (aside from coming up with a satisfactory and practical design) is to keep the result of their design within their client's established build budget. They also have a fiscal responsibility to keep their design time and their staff's design time within a budget. If they don't.... that's a big problem. If I had to do it differently, I'd make sure my architect was knowledgeable, experienced and up to date with what it costs to build. Mine wasn't and now I'm paying the price.

kygirl--our painting contractor talked us into only flat paint on the walls too--what a disaster! Not only can't the walls be washed, but if you splash water on the walls, you get water marks. We need to repaint our bathrooms and kitchen and we have only been in our house two years.

Anthem, I'm not trying to be argumentative but I'm a little confused about what you're saying about the role of architects. You described the "preferred way of working with architects" and then stated that "most homeowners don't do this". So if most homeowners don't use architects that way, why not if they "prefer" it? Or is "preferred way" simply what is theoretically preferable, e.g., what is taught in schools of architecture?

My architect worked with me to finalize the design of my house, drew up the plans, helped re-engineer some changes during construction, visited the site perhaps ten times during our 14 months of construction and that was about it. My builder did all the cost estimation, cost management and reporting, all re-design where engineering calcs weren't required, decisions on unplanned aspects such as HVAC ducting, supervision of work quality, etc. And in discussions with my neighbors (most of whom had their homes designed and built), they had the same experience. In some cases, the builder acquired the architect to design the home but the builder was the primary contact with the homeowner.

So does this area of roles/responsibilities of architects vary by region, by size/cost of home, or what?

Just curious...

Bob

Montalvo - cost (read $$$$). If you want an architectural firm responsible for the project - then there has to be a cost associated with that. That is usually on an hourly basis or on a contracted percentage of the entire project. For residential builds - usually a contracted percentage - and since most people building residences think that an architects job is done once the plans on drawn, they cut the cord at that point.

Using your example of FLW, with almost all of the houses he built - his firm/assistants oversaw the construction during the build. Many larger projects (read: greater liability, chance of problems) will retain the services of an architectural firm/architect all the way through. When the firm is in control the cost estimating, reporting and management should all go from the subs/contractor to the architect - not to you. I don't think it varies by region - I think its not a common occurrence among residential projects because of several factors A) most residential projects aren't willing to pay for it B) if they were willing to pay for it, is the project of managing the construction project big enough to justify the time that necessary from the architect/firm.

Thanks, Anthem. As I understand what you said, most residential projects aren't large enough to justify the expense of having an architectural firm manage the project, so project management by architects is seen mostly on commercial jobs. That makes sense.

Bob

Bob -- Thanks for getting down to the heart of what we're discussing on this forum: The value (or lack thereof) of using architects for *individual family homes*, not commercial buildings costing many millions.

Our architect seemed stunned and hurt when we asked him for finalized plans so that we could get started with the build. He had been expecting to spec out everything, from lighting to hardware to how many coats of paint on the walls. For me, that's the joy of custom building...the ability (or curse) to choose all of those details. Of course, we are lucky to have a creative and resourceful builder who can fill in the gaps for us when needed, and who can also correct some of the architect's mistakes that we have found as the build has progressed. We'll have a good house in the end, but it is a constantly evolving work of art and skill. It was very helpful to us to have a builder already on-deck so that as the architect made or changed plans, we could also run it by our builder for a sort of "second opinion". That didn't go down well with the architect, but in the end, I believe we benefited greatly. I think the most important thing to do when approaching your house design is to present your architect with some "inspirational" ideas and pictures...houses, kitchens, colors, styles, priorities, lifestyle, etc. so that he/she can get some idea about your mental picture of your house. After all, you are engaging a complete stranger to design a very long, very personal and expensive project. And read Garden Web faithfully! Lots of experience from others who have already been down that road!

Montalvo- I would have pm'd you, but did not see an address. May I ask if this design significantly raised your building cost? Even if you had everything under a one story plan, did having three different 'buildings' make such a difference than using one larger building? I too, would love to build with a dogtrot connection. Is it possible to see your plans? Thanks. ohtoremember@yahoo.com

He didn't talk me into anything just wasted 7 months of my time and $50,000 for a plan that was 3X more than I told him on day one (very emphatically) that I was going to spend. So here I sit $50k poorer with a large set of drawings I'll never use that I put so much time into helping develop. I have no idea what to do next. That's what my architect inadverantly talked me into. He had no idea whatsoever how much anything costs as he evidentally only worked with millionares with unlimited budgets. Heck the biggest red flag was in December when he and the only contractor willing to even discuss the project at that point with me were wasting my entire work day when they were supposed to be talking about reducing the cost on my project but, instead they spent an hour or 2 talking about their experiences with rich clients and how very funny it was to have clients with unlimited budgets that would build something, not like it, and tell them to just tear it down and do it again another way. Knock me in the head with a hammer(pardon the pun)! IMO it seems architects in my small city (Baton Rouge) like clients with unlimited money who don't care how many anything costs. I am a hard working person who has worked their behind off for all that I have. I was so intimidated being a female going to get a huge loan and hiring an architect (seemed pretentious). But, I felt with an investment this large, I thought it was the right thing to do. I felt sheepish doing it. It took 5 month in the process to finally go to bid and 2 out of 3 contractors refused to waste their time doing a formal bid and personally told me so. They said the architect was crazy and it was a totally unrealistic project and that I would be wasting my money and that the drawings were horrible. On December 24th (yes Xmas Eve) the architect told me he would do everything in his power to make it right. The story ends today March 2 with me having NOTHING still and waiting.

So, I would also advise never, ever use relatives or feel obligated to use someone related by marriage. No matter how good people say they are. Trust your instincts and stick to your budget. Or you will be sitting here waiting 7 months later with no plan, much poorer and frustrated. I know I sound mad. I am.

He is now fired. I don't have any recourse that I know of. I finally got my loan approved (post mortgage crisis) after much frustration architect frustration. Now I have to start over.

PS I signed the first architect agreement or SOW on 7/28/08. Put timelines in writing or it will cost you money!

My SOW said 4-7 weeks for drawings to go to bid? That was 7/28/08

The design of a single family residence should be a collaborative process. There should be appropriate input from the owner, the architect, and a builder/cost estimator. The limitations to this process are that the participants often have little direct experience with custom building design and even less experience with professional collaboration and/or the owner's budget does not include the cost of these services.

What is taken for granted in the world of larger more complex buildings is often entirely missing in home construction. For a college dormitory the owner provdes a written program, the architect produces several schemes, and a builder or cost estimator tracks the cost of the schemes. For a home often an owner makes up a plan or selects an internet design, an architect/designer is asked to "draw it up" and the builder modifies it for "buildability". I'm not entirely sure why this disjointed approach is so popular but I suspect owners think they know a lot about homes because they are so familiar with them and that they are willing to give up some design sophistication in order to afford a larger home.

Kimmieb...just wanted to post in agreement with your advice to never hire anyone related to you. I had a relative who could have drawn up our plans for free but I was too afraid to damage a good relationship should we disagree about the plans. In the end I had great plans made by a complete stranger and I can't think of one thing I would change in that regard. I am so sorry that you are going through such a stressful time getting your house started. I hope things improve soon!

Just to get a little off topic but I wanted to add to Kimmieb's advice. Think long and hard about asking your friends or friends of friends to do any of the work for you. Virtually every single time, the only time we had a problem involved people we knew. And these are good people until they do some work for you. And what are you going to do if there is a problem? Sue your friend? Even if you don't go that route there are still bad feelings in regard to poor workmanship. I would absolutely recommend that you think twice about hiring people you know and if you still want to take the plunge, get everything in a contract. Personally, I don't think it is worth risking a friendship.

Wow, some great discussion here. I used an architect, but took my preliminary plans and shared them with all of the trades (carpentry, electrical, mechanical, plumbing, etc.) and had them provide input on the preliminary plans. The trades were amazed that I asked, the architect was very impressed with the recommendations, and I had a marriage of design and buildability that few people get. Interestingly none of the trade subcotnractors I shared the preliminary with actually worked on the house (they weren't exactly my best bidders), but every trade was very impressed that their trade had been specifically considered and made easier during the design process.

I am also with Bob, I brought an engineering capability of how to design a structure, I wanted an architect that was an artist. Couple that artist with some real world ground-truthing (me doing structural work, trades having input during preliminary design phase), and I ended up with a great experience using the architect.

Further, the architect got into my head better than I could explain and gave me a better example of what I wanted than I even knew I wanted. It was exceptionally difficult for me as an engineer (like Bob said, oil and water), while I was telling my architect what I wanted, he was asking me how I intended to use the space and how I wanted it to feel. Ask yourself that question for every space, how do I want this to feel?!?!?! However he hit the nail on the head when it came to scale, amount of windows, etc. and the house fits me like a custom suit. And truthfully the architect saved me more than his fee, good professionals do that for your job.

Every one of my trade subcontractors and many of my suppliers have used my house to bring clients to to demonstrate their work or in their advertising.

Lest everyone think this is a high dollar extravagent house, I am in it for less than $200K total. Having an architect does have its advantages.

And for those of you who think FLW was/is a good architect, try restoring one of these houses. FLW couldn't build a house without a roof leak. They sure look pretty though, but lets not hold this as an example of the architect anyone should hire for residential work.

ha! i can't answer this since i wouldn't let him talk me into anything i didn't want. like for instance the "cinderella" staircase. my name is NOT cindy and i do NOT own a powder blue ball gown. besides all of that i am a brunette, thank you very much. omg... and then there were the THREE turrets. jeez, this guy must have been walt disney's architect!

it was not easy, but i have a plan i'm thrilled with.

"We also found that we had to re-read the entire set of plans every time there was a change. The most recent change would be made, but something that had been changed the prior week would have reverted to original. (I'm not talking 'change orders' with a builder working from a completed plan, but alterations we requested of the architect before the plan was final.)"

We had the same experience chisue described above--EVERY TIME we got the plans back.

Our guy who drew up my plans kept saying I had too many doors. I have a door on every opening in the house, including 10 pocket doors. He basically thought the entire plan should be more open, which I absolutely didn't want. DH has a loud voice, and we also have 3 grandchildren 6 and under who live with us half of the time. With all of the different sleeping and napping patterns here, and DH on the phone a lot, WE NEED EVERY DOOR almost every day!

Almost everyone who has been in the house has commented on how open it is. It feels open because the pocket doors don't get in the way, and some of them are doubles so the openings are wide. I also designed it so that every time you walk into a room, you are looking across to a window and/or across the room at an angle.

He had some good ideas on tweaking my plan, but my doors bothered him until the end. So really think about any suggestions you may get, but stick to your guns if something really fits how you live or what you want.

Anne