John - you don't have to explain which end is up to me. Contrary to your notion that I'm just guy trolling the internet for reading material - I actually have 25 + years in the building/remodeling business. All I'm trying to get through your thick skull is that UPC and local codes are not always the same ( even with in the same country) and local customs may differ in their enforcement of them ! What may be the law of the land in Vancouver may have no bearing in Greenwood SC. Also , let me spell out for you what I mean since you are having trouble grasping this: "plumbing inspects don't mind if the tile guys install Kerdi Drains" [sic] This is not the same thing as saying: The plumbing code is WRITTEN in this jurisdiction to allow the tile guy to hookup plumbing !!!!! What is happening - are you listening John? - is that the inspectors are using their judgement and discretion on a case by case basis like they normally do to move the project along. It's a wink wink nudge nudge situation, you know - social graces, a$$ kissing, politiking, back slapping , ect... Perhaps you don't. You see, the bright ones are not there to be an autobot checking off the boxes of the CODE, they are there to ensure that the public get a safe house. Hooking up the drain PROPERLY ( can be) accomplished by a plumber , homeowner, general contractor, architect, salesman or anyone really. It can also be IMPROPERLY installed by all including the plumber, and a license is no guarantee either way. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IT IS WRITTEN IN THE UPC THAT THESE PEOPLE CAN DO SO ! I am saying that it is not that hard a task or requiring a huge amount of skill or experience - especially the kerdi one. So just about anyone with decent motor skills and a bit of instruction could do it. Am I being clear enough for you? I am also NOT SAYING/ADVOCATING that people should run out and get their ob/gyn or cousin Sally to actually preform the work. Still clear ??? Anyway I'm sure you've seen the opposite happen, crumudgeon inspector shows up and has a longstanding issue/personality conflict with your plumber or sparky so your job gets failed out of hand - doesn't matter if there is anything deficient. We've even run in to instances where the local enforcer won't approve a Kerdi install no matter how many drawings, approvals, letters, or engineering stamps we submit to them- just ain't going to happen! I know that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, but don't worry we didn't use Nobel or Hydroban, simply put in a $200 fiberglass unit and ripped it out after inspection and C.O. and built them a curbless, doorless, walk in. Client wanted Kerdi, so we facilitated that, and the local guy was not going to impede that because he didn't agree with the product or procedure. Are you getting this point ??? He just didn't want to accept a membrane type shower, it wasn't against UPC or Local CODE, he simply wouldn't pass / sign off on it. So our "cowboy ways" made the client happy, and met CODE, it simply wasn't rubber stamped by the building police. Getting this ??? An NO, I didn't forget to mention where this took place , and NO, I'm not going to - so don't ask! And don't try to guess, It wasn't even in our region. Oh , so now you're on board that a homeowner can install the drain in his highrise condo?? What if it's a co-op or condo in which the bylaws strictly forbid the homeowner doing work themselves ? In that case they wouldn't be able to despite the local laws! Then we could debate the merits of the fella that thumbs his nose at the board and undertakes the work himself claiming "it legal". Again - I am not questioning your assessment of how a good shower is generally arrived at or how the UPC is written. What I am trying to point out is that local codes are not the same everywhere, and enforcement is sometimes a grey area, and the indiv. signing off may or may not be abreast of the current code in it's entirety. Then there is the inspector's "interpretation" of the CODE. SO, I think you've got a lot of nerve trying to tell me what's what in my own backyard, especially since you have ZERO experience is this neighborhood.

I'm not going to comment on the differences between the two options, we never even considered a pan and it was never an issue with our contractor. In addition to having to build it in, you have to allow a couple of days for the concrete to cure, so I'm sure it takes longer. It makes sense that he wants to take the method of least resistence "and get it done to be done with it" because time is money and the quicker he can finish your job, the quicker he can move on to the next. But that doesn't mean that you should be asked to compromise what you'd prefer to do just because it will benefit your contractor. Get additional quotes and stick to what you either vision or can afford to do. Also, when my GC was tiling our master bath, I ran into a similar situation with our niche. Bill told me something that really put things into perspective and changed my whole approach to the project. He said, "He who holds the golden egg is the boss" In other words, it's your project, you're paying the bill, so you make the call. If it's not a job he wants to do, find someone else you feel comfortable with who will.

"@MongoCT - thank you - I visualize your explanation - can you elaborate as to how they would have avoided that situation ? should the drywall not drop all the way down? or the waterproofing should have taken care of it?" Jim, here are the installation instructions from the manufacturer. If the link does not work, which can happen with links to pdf documents, just google "denshield installation instructions". See the drawing and text on page 6. The general idea is that: 1) A preslope of mud should have been placed on the shower subfloor, properly detailed. 2) On top of that sloped mud goes your waterproof membrane. The edges of the membrane get turned up the walls. With the membrane going on top of a sloped surface, the membrane is now sloped to the drain, which is a requirement in the building code. It is a code violation for the membrane to be placed directly on a flat surface/subfloor. The membrane itself needs to be sloped. 3) On top of that membrane goes another layer of deck mud. 4) The bottom edge of the Denshield gets held just above the deck mud. The Denshield should not contact the mud. 5) The gap between the denshield and the mud gets completely filled with sealant. The objective is to get sealant on the entire 1/2" thick edge of the denshield panel so the exposed gypsum core will be sealed, so it will never see moisture from the mud. On the curb? If yours was a wood core curb, built up from stacked 2x4s? There are various ways to do this, however... The membrane gets wrapped over the wood curb, with the membrane fastened to the curb only on the outside face of the curb. No fasteners go through the membrane on the inside face or top of the curb. Most folk will then wrap the membraned curb with an upside-down "U" formed out of expanded diamond lathed. No fasteners. It's a somewhat loose friction fit. You want the lathe to follow the shape of the curb, but you don't want the metal edges to contact the membrane. The lathe is coated with a thickness of Mortar/mud. Mortar gets placed on the inside, top, and outside face of the curb, completely encasing the expanded lathe and the curb within. It gets shaped as needed, with the top pitched slightly into the shower. The lathe provides structure for the mud to prevent it from slumping. When the mud cures, you tile on the mud. That gives you a sturdy curb base to tile on with no holes in the membrane on the top and inside "wet" faces of the curb. The Denshield instructions I linked to earlier show a rough sectional of a wood core shower curb covered with the membrane and mortar. They do not show the upside-down "U" of lathe that I wrote about. If installed, it would be centered in the thickness of mortar that covers the curb. With all that written? I agree with the others, that surface applied membranes are indeed superior. In the age of computers? Installation instructions are available from the manufacturers' websites. While you have to sort through them and discard the whackos, there are also good youtube videos available. Any shower system is only as effective as the person installing it. While I'm not a fan of Denshield myself, if it had been installed properly you should have had a properly performing shower. The gypsum core is the weak point with Denshield. Any exposed panel edge, or any drilled hole? The exposed gypsum needs to be protected from exposure to water. Referencing your last sentence: "...or the waterproofing should have taken care of it?" In a Denshield shower, the wall waterproofing is the acrylic surface of the Denshield panels. Any panel edges or drilled holes, the exposed gypsum core needs to be sealed with sealant. The shower floor, the waterproofing is the membrane. At the base of the walls where the two meet, the Denshield goes OVER the membrane. With the Denshield alone, your installer failed to protect the panel edges. He buried the bottom of the Denshield panels in mud that, for the most part after the first week of showering, the mud will become saturated with moisture. And he also used Denshield on the curb which is a no-no. I wrote a lot, I do hope it makes sense.

HU, you are probably not aware that cement backer board like Durock is not waterproof. I know that I did not know this before reading this forum. You have to put waterproofing all the way up the walls using even Durock. I bet you also did not know that grout is not waterproof. Grout, as in what goes between the tiles in the shower! This is why even walls must be waterproofed. When you go to rebuild the shower, I would like to suggest something. A lot of people get condensation above the shower, on the walls. When the shower tile ends at 6 ft or 7ft, there are usually painted walls above the shower. I have a pet peeve about this because every shower I have had that had the walls end before the ceiling had molding on that paint where it met the tile. I know that if your exhaust fan is good, this is not supposed to happen, but I just never get used to turning on the fan (and in winter, using it makes the bathroom cold). I was probably 30 before I had a house with an exhaust fan. I solved this problem in my remodel by getting an exhaust fan from Panasonic that senses the humidity and turns on. So consider getting a less expensive tile that you can afford to take to the ceiling. It is just one more place that you don't have to clean in the long run!