Here's another pic, I am sorry for the large size, I just want to be able to show enough of the detail, which is much obscured due to the bad camera and also the haze of the glass tile.

{{gwi:1440828}}

Alot ot times, you'll see that before it's grouted, as in the pics below. It's a result of starting and stopping the thinset at reference lines, and your eye picks up the difference in the shading of the grout joint.

Once grouted this will usually disappear:

Unfortunately, I don't think this will be the case with your tile. You can point it out to your tile guy and ask him how he intends to fix the problem, and let us know what he says.

Bill, it's already grouted. The tile guys says the problem is my tile. As an expert, what do you think of this? Am I asking too much?

Am I asking too much?

Not at all. If it were the tile, he should've brought it to your attention BEFORE he hung it on the wall, so you could've brought it back. However, I don't see where it's a problem with the tile, that he couldn't set the sheets close enough to show a uniform grout joint. that's installation, not material. Hold your ground.

Basically, my DH pointed out the larger spacing lines BEFORE it was grouted, and the tile guy said it wouldn't show once it was grouted. "It will look beautiful", he said. THEN, when I saw it grouted, I cried. It looks cheap, and this is expensive glass tile. DH talked to a couple of the other contractors about the tile, and they said that the tile guy told him that it was our paper backing on our tile that prevented him from seeing. BUT. On the other wall, it looks GREAT. Perfect.

The thing is, tomorrow DH and I are meeting with the GC to talk to him, and settle up on some of the bills. But I really, really dislike the tile job. I think it looks cheaply done, and this was not a cheap, inexperienced worker nor cheap tile.

*sigh* I am ready for my padded cell and crafts now, please.

I feel your pain, tradewind, I really do. I hate it when I hear of tilesetters (*not you, Bill*, but you know the type--you've seen it here too) say "oh it'll look great when it's grouted" and of course the problem is completely still there. They are actually just hoping that you'll think it's too much trouble to undo, and don't really care what it looks like as long as they can call it finished.

IMO, the fact that some of the walls are perfect and some aren't is a very strong arguing point, IMO. He knows how to do it, and you could tell the difference between the two *before* the grout. He knows it too. Sure, paper backing was on one wall but not the other? Sure. You can say that they're not all done the same and you want the others brought up to the same standard of consistent groutlines both in and among sheets. Flat out.

I'd definitely hold on to the final payment--once you give it, it will be nigh on to impossible to get him to do anything.

Bill, is there a possibility of damage to the Kerdi substrate if the tile is removed? Of course, a resentful tilesetter could *cause* damage, but I'm wondering if it's inescapable or easy to avoid or what.

btw, is there an Angieslist in your town, tradewind?

Flyleft, what is Angieslist?

I am not sure how to handle this. I mean, if one is unhappy with a job, does one simply say "NO" to paying? Then what happens if the tile guy sues? Will a judge decide that this is an "adequate" job? What are the standards, with which legal action sides?

I realize that I would have recourse if the tile leaked, or popped off, or such, but....a bad spacing issue? Non uniform grout lines? Is that grounds to withhold payment?

I swear I don't usually whine about stuff, and I'm NOT a perfectionist...but...I wanted the overall look of the 1", and when you walk into the bathroom, the eye automatically notices the big squares. IMO it really "cheapens" the look.

Do I actually request that he remove the tile and start again? That is really the only way he can fix it, no? Purchasing more tile on his dime? In doing my bathroom, they blew through my 15% overage (not sure exactly what happened) and went back to the tile store and charged more on my account.

At any rate, THANK YOU for listening.

Joanna

Angieslist is a great thing--although it's something to think about later.

I hope that Bill (or mongo or Bud) weighs in here, to say what you technically have the right to hold out for...I know I had enough trouble asking my tile guy to take out a few chipped tiles and cut new ones to fit them, and that was the day after--he told me that it was fine if I told him then, much better than telling him I didn't like a cut after it was all grouted. But your guy has asked for it, and IMO shown bad faith in trying to put you off, saying it'd be fine when it was grouted--well, it's *not* fine, it's clearly not consistent in quality, and the same remedy that was available to you before grouting should be offered *after* grouting, if he's really upright. If he's not, which it sounds like is the case, since he put you off in the first place and is trying to bluster his way through this one, well...I am a bit concerned about the bitterness factor...but it's just not right or good business practice. He knows how to do it better than he did in parts of it, and your installation is inconsistent.

Which is why I brought up angieslist...it's a site that publishes consumer reviews of service providers' work. It's been immensely helpful to me in choosing contractors, and is a great free marketing tool for those who get consistently good reviews. Also a potential business-killer for folks who get bad reviews (contractors have the right to comment on the reviews, too). It's a bigger version of a circle of friends sharing who's done work for them, basically. So just remember that if there's one around your area, you can at least write a review of his work and make sure that other people know how he put you off and didn't respect your wishes at a time when it would have been much easier to remedy. I would certainly turn elsewhere if I read that, so at least your suffering isn't in vain.

Here is a link that might be useful: has not steered me wrong yet

how how how do I hold my ground? Just by refusing payment till it is fixed?

Exactly. Let me ask you-- are you paying the installer directly or is the GC? If the GC is, withold that money from the GC. Any GC worth his salt will take care of this, but the money is an added "incentive".

Bill, is there a possibility of damage to the Kerdi substrate if the tile is removed?

Yes, there is. There's a good chance it too would probably have to be replaced with wholesale tile removal like that. So be it. That's the tile guy's problem, not hers.

Then what happens if the tile guy sues? Will a judge decide that this is an "adequate" job? What are the standards, with which legal action sides?

Hopefully, it doesn't get that far. If it goes to court, no one wins except the lawyers. There's a woman over in the Kitchens forum (vasheri) that found that out the hard way a couple of years ago with her cabinet guy. Pics, documentation, the whole 9 yards. She recouped some of her money, but not nearly as much as she should have.

Bill, we are paying the GC directly. We are meeting with him in about an hour, I haven't seen him since before the tile was grouted.

We'll see what he says. I am nervous.

flyleft, thanks for the link to angieslist. Good thing to have when it comes to the kitchen remodel, which is next :-) Although, I don't know if I can take much more of this...remodeling is not for the fainthearted!

Joanna

It's too bad, because with the exception of the sheets being set too far apart, everything else looks quite nice.

Clean lines, good corners, I only see one or two divots in the entire installation and they may just be from your camera phone.

The sheets being that apparent is just nasty.

As a GC, this is between you and your GC. You deal with the GC, the GC deals with the tile guy.

Removing the glass tile after the thinset has fully cured will likely peel the fleece off the Kerdi, but as Bill wrote, that's not your concern. That simply part of the remediation.

Regardless of your conversation, document this in writing and do it ASAP. Write your GC a letter and send it certified mail, return receipt requested. Just the facts. Step by step. What happened. What was said, when it was said. Try to keep the emotion out of it. Close with what you want. Mail the letter.

Have your conversations and see where this leads.

Things in your favor are that you objected to the tile spacing prior to it being grouted, and you voiced those objections to the installer.

Also in your favor is that a "standard installation" for glass mosaic is that the sheets are spaced so the installation looks seamless and "sheetless".

Again, that letter is independent of your conversation. And start documenting your timeline so you don't lose track of details over time.

Your choices will be to go for a complete redo, and everyone will be fighting you on that, because it could require new Kerdi, new tile, etc. Or to settle with some sort of financial compromise.

Although I'm not recommending this route, as to me it's more an unknown than a known, I'll ask Bill or Bud (or anyone else) out of curiosity, as they are much more knowledgeable about thinset then I am...

Is there any way new sheets could be set over the existing? Prep the existing glass with a belt sander? Grind it with diamond pads? Etch the glass with a chemical rinse? Then skim coat or just set new glass over the existing?

Tiling over ceramic is fairly straightforward, but tiling over glass mosaic is something I've never heard or seen done, I'm not up enough on thinset technology to advise that route.

Mongo

Oh my gosh, you guys, I just finished meeting with the GC. He absolutely agreed that it was terrible and is going to have it redone. He promised it will be done "to my satisfaction". I am very much relieved for the moment.

I just want to thank everyone who responded to me, flyleft, Bill, and Mongo, because it very much helped me to know that I wasn't being unreasonable. And Mongo, thank you for the words "seamless" and "sheetless". Now when they come to fix it, I can very easily describe what I am looking for.

For right now, I'm breathing again :-)

tradewind, that's *wonderful!* So glad! They know how to do it, and if they don't want to do it over yet again, will put a little more effort into it this time.

That's just great news :)

Is there any way new sheets could be set over the existing? Prep the existing glass with a belt sander? Grind it with diamond pads?

tradewinds, I'm glad to hear that the GC stepped up. That speaks volumes as to what kind of GC he is.

Mongo, to answer your question, I don't know what the industry line is. One big con would be how much glass expands and contracts. However, I'd think that K/K or 317/333 could remedy that. The way I see it, thinset will stick to the face just as well as it'll stick to the back! :-) I don't think it would hurt to abraid the surface, first, either.

I just watched an episode of Divine Design on HGTV. They did a monster kitchen with a nod to art deco design and used sheets of white hex with black accents and black grout on the floor. You could see each and every sheet when they were done, much worse than this shower. I'd say this was an 80-100k remodel, quite a shame.

Glad to hear you're getting resolution.

OUCH. Bad Candice!

I remember seeing that show right before I was set to order my hex tile. It gave me seriously cold feet. I'd been worried about the issue before and seeing it plain as day in "charcoal and white" really sealed the deal for me. I know the problem can happen with any mosaic tile but it seems to be particularly bad with hex for some reason. I took it as a sign from the decorating gods.

Well you guys, I HOPE it all goes well. I fully realize the whole deal could still fall apart. I actually have no idea how they are planning on fixing it. But we will be very slow writing the checks till it's done :-).

Bill or Mongo, why does the sheet visibility happen? Is it something that needs spacers? Or is it that the installers are not stepping back to view their work as they go?

Joanna

Joanna,

It often happens when spacers are used and the spacers don't match the spacing withing the sheets. There are wedged shape spacers (tile spikes) that are perfect for situations requiring adjustable spacing.

It happens with the spacing within the sheets isn't consistent from one sheet to another.

It happens when grid lines are struck and the grids are too large, so the sheets are pulled apart just a bit more than they should be.

It can happen when boxes of tile are improperly stored. I had a shipment come in and when I picked them up I opened a box to find the spacing on one dimension of the sheets tighter than the other. All sheets were like that. We looked in the storage room and they had the boxes stacked on their sides instead of on their bottoms. The compression actually squished the tiles closer together.

I've had some where I had to knit the sheets together, cutting tiles out of the side of one sheet and removing the mates from the adjacent sheet. That was with 3/8" mosaic where the sheett spacing was inconsistent not only from one sheet to another, but at times, within each sheet.

It was one of the more dreadful experiences I've had to endure.

But it looked nice when I was done!

Hex tiles can be tough when the spacing is off as a sheet error in one dimension can throw off your lines in both dimensions.

Stepping back to check one's work dos indeed help. As can a fresh set of eyes on the work as it progresses.

Sometimes the spacing can be "accidentally" ruined "intentionally". If a wall takes 6 sheets plus a sliver, the installer might gap the sheets a tad more than desired to avoid the sliver. The sliver disappears, but the increased spacing between sheets stands out.

Mosaics look fabulous when done properly, but it's absolutely heartbreaking to see a nice mosaic set improperly.

Mongo

That is the same issue I am having