The herringbone does make it a bit difficult, for the tiles on the bias somewhat restrict you from fudging with the pattern as you could with something similar like a running bond.

The same holds true when butting tiles together. Not having the ability to micro-massage grout lines adds a bit of flexibility in difficult situations.

The crease doesn't look like the deviation is all that significant. I can see it causing a bit of analysis paralysis with an installer who might stare at it for a half a day and fret over it, but these things happen all the time.

I'd strike a straight and square layout line on the sloped part above the crease, then backfill to the crease, slightly massaging the cuts at the crease.

You may not be able to perfectly fold the cut wall tile on to the ceiling...you might have to recut or waste a few tiles with secondary cuts to get there...but it could be done.

The bigger problem will be if the left and right sidewalls are not parallel to each other both above and below the crease. What you don't want is for the herringbone to get skewed on an angle as it goes through the crease.

If there is any chance at all of the herringbone getting skewed, then go to your "Plan B".

The easiest solution is your "Plan B", abandoning the attempt to fold the herringbone through the crease and instead running a horizontal left-to-right course to separate the wall herringbone from the ceiling herringbone.

I can't possibly fathom why he claims that wouldn't work.

That break could be anything from whole subways to split subways, a run of your black pencil tile, or a combo of the above.

It looks like you're already planning for something similar at the top of your sidewalls where they meet the sloped ceiling.

When working with a rigid patterned material like tile or even parquet wood flooring in a rigid pattern, borders solve myriad problems in out of square, old house remodeling.

The problem with his wanting to "rip everything out an making it perfect" is that he should have taken measurements and snapped a few diagonals prior to mixing any thinset.

The prep work makes or breaks a job, often time setting the tile is the easiest part of the whole thing.

You've taken the first step towards getting this rectified, which is allowing flexibility in the final layout. Your tile guy just needs to get over the frustration and move forward towards resolution.

Mongo

Well the tile guy let me know this morning that he would TRY to get back to it on tuesday but it didn't look promising and then it would be another 3 weeks for him to get to it. I told him that was unacceptable and he told me that this was my fault because I kept "changing things." I gave him scaled drawings of the entire job before he quoted it it and have not deviated one bit from from those drawings. The only "hangups" have been when he has expected me to solve technical problems and not design problems (which until this point I have been able to solve - I thought I had solved this one too and didn't realize I hadn't until he left in a snit). So yes, sometimes that took me some time to figure out but I have not been doing this for 20 years. I'm sorry but where I come from, the craftsman solves the technical problems, not the designer.

The shower is square and all of the walls are parallel. It's just the crease that is a little bit off - I'm guessing if you put a level to the sloped ceiling parallel to the wall it would be slightly off. Whatever the case, what's done is done.

The field tile is $0.20 a tile - if he had to toss a dozen or so due to trial and error cuts there would be no tears shed from me. I have 3 cases of tile left for this project so it's not a question of running out and having to reorder. It's also not like it's a 12' long section of wall either - it amounts to 10 tiles across on either side of the crease. Even if it took him half a day just to do that, if he would have not missed days of work due to his truck not starting (not just one day but several - any time it's damp out) or having to bring it to be inspected because he realized it was overdue or any of the other reasons, he would have finished this job before disappearing for the entire month of April.

So maybe what I need to do is get over the crease myself this weekend and then leave the rest for him to potentially finish on tuesday if he shows up, if not have someone else do it. The rest should be straightforward, I just don't have the energy for it all (as small as the area is) and especially not the grouting.

If I did it myself I would draw another line where the crease is (it's kind of a fuzzy line right now - the tile guy taped all of the durock seams so he can't blame my contractor for not creating a crisp enough corner there). Get a little thinset, set 20 tiles, call it done. It can't take me more than a day :).

Also to just be totally anal, would it be unreasonable of me to use some white caulk between the cut herringbone pieces on the crease and then masking that off so that when it gets grouted, there is no grey line in the crease between tiles but rather the grout joints only really "show" in the pattern? Or would using a little white grout be better than caulk?

Ha, I would almost believe that since he said virtually the same thing to me this afternoon! He said he wished he paid more attention and helped more when I did my backsplash so he could do it and I could sit in a comfy chair (same words!) and supervise. He did say he was ok with me doing just that part and we'll see if the tile guy shows up on tuesday to finish. If not, the rest is not so complicated so anyone else could hopefully finish it.

That's a good idea about trying to make it as even as possible. I will post results and see how close to parallel I can get that seam and hopefully being overhead and with caulk matching the tile color in the seam it won't be noticeable. I almost hope he comes tuesday so he can feel the shame of a girl half his age and 8 months pregnant who has done exactly one tile project before being able to solve a problem that he couldn't with his 20+ years of experience. I think the chances of him actually coming on tuesday are slim to none, I could hear him flipping me the bird through the phone.

I'm with all of the people who say do it yourself and avoid the hassle. Next time I gut a bathroom it won't be when I've gotten myself knocked up, although this bathroom is taking almost as long as this baby to finish!

Yup, we have some sturdy girls here on GW.

Was it Mrs Henderson who was, a couple years back, grouting her floor with only a couple of weeks until her due date?

Be careful out there!

Mnogo

A guy with a little imagination could probably straighten that crooked line with the tile. The cuts could be made slightly longer than the crease (on one side) diminishing as you move across the breadth of the wall, coming to the crease and then falling slightly short of the crease on the other side.

The longer cuts that would cause the back of the tile to bump the other side of the crease and therefore stand proud could be ground off on the back of the tile allowing the tile to cross-over the crease slightly and thereby correcting the line somewhat and at the same time allowing the tiles to nest at the proper elevation with the adjacent tiles.

Not sure this makes any sense but I can see it happening and have in fact done such things with great success. Grinding the backs of that tile is a piece of cake.

No need to straighten it. From what I'm seing in that pic, it's a piece of cake, and what this guy is crying about, I've got no idea. You've even mapped it out for him. All he's got to do is fill in the blanks!! It doesn't matter if the line is square or not, so long as it's straight. Being that it's straight, there's no problem in "bending" the pattern past it.

Sounds to me like this guy is in over his head.

thanks, a consensus that what I am asking for is not totally out of left field is nice. I know I'm hormonal and grumpy so I really did want to know. It REALLY pissed me off when he told me that the fact that he's not done is MY fault because I didn't tell him how to solve this problem. What more direction would you expect from a client behind "run the pattern through?" I think what he WANTS to do is just run the herringbone up to the crease and then do running bond from there, which is NOT what I want. I think it would look terrible.

I just don't understand what it is with so-called professionals who aren't professional. Maybe I've gotten spoiled hanging around here and have super high expectations that will never possibly be met, I don't know.

BTW, I drew the pattern on after he left in a snit on wed expecting he'd be back on thursday so he hasn't seen that yet but... why couldn't he have done that himself if he was having trouble visualizing the cuts? Am I really that big a genius for figuring out how to do that? My fear is that even with that he still won't be able to get it or figure it out so I'm still planning to set just those 20 or so tiles so that the rest is straightforward and he can finish up with minimal drama.

ARGH.

What you and a lot of others have seen up close and personal is why, when I was doing residential construction, I brought most every trade "in house".

I subbed out foundations, chimneys, and drywall. We used to do our own roofing but insurance and WC got too high, so we eventually subbed that out as well. Other than those trades, my four guys and I did everything else ourselves.

As I hired guys to find the right mix of talent and personality, guys usually screwed things up once. I'm not talking honest mistakes, but instead referring to a "screw up".

They learned shortcuts are long cuts and hiding mistakes cost me time and them money.

In construction, as in most trades and professions, ignorance and apathy are a horrible combination.

With your shower sidewalls on the upper sloped ceiling being square and parallel, this is totally do-able.

Give this guy a timeline over the phone, is no reply, follow it up with a letter, certified w return receipt requested. He had five business days to finish the job from receipt of the letter, or you take him off payroll and you look elsewhere. At his expense.

You have a baby on the way. This guy needs to get of his tail and get you off his schedule.

Best, Mongo

I couldn't put it any better.

lisa, it looks like you've done an exceptional job planning and plotting for this guy. If he can't figure out how to get over the crease then he shouldn't be quoting jobs. By the way, the bath is looking beautiful so far.

Well I drew the line where the ridge is after feeling it out and it IS a pretty big difference - too big for me to make up with thinset and straighten it, so I am just going the simple way with the line being crooked. The kerdi was cut straight and not where the natural crease is. That's ok with me though, as I said before, one of those "old house" things.

I made a bunch of templates out of cardboard so I could test fit stuff more easily and now I'm off to the evil big box stores to buy some supplies. I will hopefully post pics later (wish me luck!)

It's not as perfect as I'd like it but at this point I'm just glad it's done. Mostly physically I just can't handle being up on the ladder for long enough to finesse it enough and of course working on the ceiling is tough.

Hopefully it will look a little better when the grout is in - mapei warm grey, it makes the grout lines a little more subtle than they look empty.

i think that looks *great*!!

Good job, Lisa. :-)

Thanks. I posted a small picture because a big one would show all of the flaws. Really it's not my best work but I'm so big and clumsy and uncomfortable right now, plus I am way out of practice on tiling and had I done this project myself I would have lots of practice on easier stuff before getting to this point and had "the touch" back.

At this point I just want it done and this was the only way to get it done. :/ I'm just so angry that he couldn't do it himself. I dunno, I guess my expectations that people have a brain and use it to solve problems are too high.

I'd love to see the look on the tile guy's face when he comes back and sees that a pregnant woman was done what he was whining was too hard.

Excellent! Great job.

Wow, this reads so much like my experience with a cabinet refacing guy it's eerie. I kicked him off the job after only three days tho, you've been far too patient in my opinion. Is there only one tile guy in town? Could you get someone else to come and bid on finishing it? You just don't need this aggravation right now, not healthy for either one of you!

Take care!

Why, if I had a major award handy, I'd mail it to you right now!

Good work.

I would have charged you about $1762 to do the cut tiles along that line, so feel free to reduce the amount that you pay your tile guy by that much.

Mongo

Ordinarily I would have fired him. You'd think I'd learn after the plumber fiasco. He got ALMOST finished, I would say better than 90%, but then got stuck at the ceiling and moved on to another job. Around that time I started having some complications with the pregnancy so it just wasn't a priority for me to chase after him or to chase after DH to chase after him. I was spending half my week at the doctor anyway (everything is ok). He was gone for 2.5 weeks and supposed to come back here when he called and said he stepped on something metal and was going to the doctor. Next day the doctor told him he had to stay off his feet for at least a week. It turned into a week and a half so then we were at 4 weeks (I assume he bumped us for someone else in the interim).

Why did my tile job take so long in the first place? He had the flu for a week (and we did ask him not to come as I didn't want to be exposed, not his fault), like I said before every time it rains out his truck didn't start, one day he realized he hadn't gotten his truck inspected yet and needed to do that... why that took a whole day I dunno, when we get our car inspected we drop it at the gas station 2 blocks from here and walk home and then pick it up in an hour at most if he's a little busy. Then there were the days it was "too cold" for him to set up his wetsaw (he was waiting for a 60+ day, the 50's was too cold) so he'd work til noon when he ran out of things to do that didn't require the saw and mark a bunch of stuff to take it home to cut it. All of this happened over so much time that I didn't really put it all together til he had the nerve to tell me that it was *MY* fault that the job wasn't done yet for "changing things" and then not telling him what he needed to know quickly to complete the job. Please, on days when there was still 100sf of basic field tile to be done he was out of here by 3pm.

As to why I don't just fire him, he's got less than 6sf of herringbone, 2-3 courses of subway tile over about 8 linear feet and 8 linear feet of border to go to complete the job (plus grouting the shower). He said he'd be back tuesday, by the time I find someone else to finish he'd already be done, so I saw this as the path of least resistance. Now that I did the hard part it should take him no time at all to do that little bit. When he told me it might be 3 weeks until he got back to the job, I told him that was unacceptable and either he was here Tuesday or not at all and started asking around for another tile person. Then he called and said he could be here Tuesday (probably screwing some other client over who was expecting him to be done). Now the challenge will be to keep my big mouth shut, which is tough under the best of circumstances, so that he doesn't screw up what is left.

At this point I've spent nearly 3 months of this remodel just waiting for people to get back to the job. I NEVER thought back in november that I'd be just hoping to get things done before the baby shows up. I was expecting it to take a while because of murphy's law but not THAT much time. And I hired out the tile rather than do it at 6 months pregnant because I thought it would get done more quickly that way. HA.

On the positive side your bathroom turning out to look gorgeous!
Love all this white color and beautiful design.
Simple but elegant and after all of it done nobody but you will know all those small mishaps and misalignments...

Wow, I feel for you. You're soooo close - in more ways than one! Let's hope the threat worked and he gets it done - and does it right. Good luck!

- D

It does look wonderful and I can't wait to see the finished photos. Just tell yourself tomorrow, step away from the tile man...

Well he came, worked a bit and then whined like a schoolgirl about something else he couldn't figure out (simple geometry if you ask me). I figured that out for him and then he whined about the fact that there is a quarter inch bow in the ceiling. I sent DH up on the scaffold with some tile to hold it up against the ceiling and see what that was all about and could not see a bow anywhere. MAYBE a 1/16" bow. He wanted me to figure that out for him too.

I finally lost patience and told him that I could not possibly tell him how to do his job without getting up there and just doing it. I told him to go take lunch and I'd get up there and see what was going on. He packed up his stuff and stormed out. Turns out he was paid up 90% anyway (before disappearing for a month) so there you have it. I didn't realize DH was handing out the checks that way. I can't be mad at DH though because this is the man who has spent the last several months getting up at 3am to rub my back when it hurts and basically treating me like a princess. Plus the job is about 90% done I guess so we're at least fairly paid up. Live and learn.

I have never met such a whiny, unprofessional so called "tradesman" lacking in basic geometry skills required to do his job to tell you the truth. It's really disappointing. It's really disappointing to run into someone who can't even think about how to solve a problem - I guess I give people too much credit and figure if they've been doing this a while, they have a knack or something. So now we need to find someone to finish a tiny little bit, I think my GC can more or less handle it though, under my supervision. I am just not physically able to do it myself, not that dh would let me anyway.

I'm just so beyond frustrated.

I've seen alot of installers look at herringbone, especially diagonal herringbone like it's Greek to them, and it's actually a pretty easy (albeit time consuming) pattern. Look at it in the picture, it's not a matter of tiles zig-zagging back and forth. It's just stacking tile into "steps"-- first laying them on their sides, and then standing them on end, then back on their sides again, and so on. Very simple.

We're done with the herringbone. This is the border on top of the running bond on the walls that he's having a problem with (figuring out how to cut it at - you guessed it - the crease again). He got one side and I can't figure out why he couldn't figure out the other side except that he's screwing with me. I really don't get it. I also bit my tongue until it bled but after the third question today that was basically "help me figure out how to lay tile" I "slipped" and told him that I can't explain to him how to do his job and the only way I could figure it out is to get up there and mess with it and just do it. I told him to go take a lunch break while I did that and he said he doesn't take lunch and grabbed his stuff and stormed out.

I don't think the herringbone messed him up per se - I was explicit about that from the beginning and he was okay with it. At this point I think he was just asking me every stupid question to make some kind of a point, like "okay smart@ss, you figured out the ceiling, now figure THIS out." I really TRIED to be patient but I just wasn't seeing the problems he was seeing. It sounded like he was making a mountain out of every molehill he could possibly find. Maybe he was just looking for an excuse to walk out on the job when it was obvious that he wasn't going to get done in one day like he wanted to. I really don't know. I don't get people sometimes.

There is so little left, I'm wondering if I can work with my contractor to finish it up. He's done some tile before, he's just slow and this job was just too big and complicated for him. At this point so little is left i can't imagine any real tile guy coming in to do it. Part of me wants to do it myself but after how hard it was to do the part I did do, there is no way DH is going to allow a repeat of that. I think grouting it all will be a bigger deal than setting the rest of the tile.

I can't see any real installer doing the things you've told us. The only thing I can come up with is this guy was all about suckering you into doing the installation, and then at the end he'd have been looking for the check for supervising! Hell, I can do that from here!!

Good gravy Lisa...I thought only the tile guys in Alaska were that terrible!

If it helps...I'm on tile guy number three...no wait it's four, with one ripped out floor and two ripped out showers, and finally I found the tile guy of my dreams (since the kidnap plans for both mongo and bill v didn't work out) who quickly finished the job within a couple of weeks (ok he's done as much as he can until the others get their work done). For MONTHS my job has been held up by tile guys. I was willing to pay rediculous sums to get it done, and thankfully the tile gods smiled and sent me Joe who whipped through the job everyone else whined about and made it look like cake.

I can picture you up there on that ladder, since I was doing similar things with my newborn (not tiling, but walking people through the job) a couple of years ago. Darling...get off the ladders or we'll tell your doctor (who has probably given you the normal warnings...no Tuna, Lunch Meat, Blue Cheese, Wine, Cigs, Cigars, Port, Painting, etc., but probably forgot entirely to tell you no tile setting) ;Op

Find someone to grout it! That work on your knees isn't a good idea! And post pics when it's done...It looks like a great space!!!

We looked at a few big victorians this week. All built in the late 1880's to 90's. I was just saying to DH that I was going to have to do research on what tile existed then to fix the bathrooms. Several have showers under slopes like yours....It looks like you used the spaces well and so far it looks pretty appropriate to the age of the house. I really do want to see it when it's finished! It's going to be fabulous!

New on bathroom forum, been around all the others.
Your bathroom looks wonderful. I applaud your can do attitude. Exactly what I would have done, always did my best work during those last few weeks.
(If you want something done quickly, have a pregnant, nesting mama do it)

One of the baths we just finished is very similar to yours. We ended up DIY also as tile guys were , shall we say, not so good at getting things right. Seriously frustrating as they said they were pros. Tile was their business.
Anyway, I am thrilled at how its gone so far. We did the hex floor, subway all around, blue bands instead of black. Its a dormitory shower as its for 6 of our boys so it has 2 of everything. Happy to share pics if you want.

Great job, enjoy!!

Lisa, send your tile guy a bill for your services. LOL Don't mean to laugh, but when I read your post about you telling him to take lunch, I cracked up. Too much aggravation especially for a pregnant lady. HA!

Well I spoke to my GC about finishing the little bit of tile left to do (under my supervision) and he told me that the tile guy was whining to him from the beginning that this job was fare more complicated than he anticipated. Um, hello? It's a straight up subway tile job, I had all of the materials on hand, gave him drawings that look like this one:

for every freakin' wall in the bathroom. Here's what it looks like, do you see any deviation at all? (well except the knee wall that needed to be built to hold the plumbing for the new sink, but that was there and drywalled when he bid the job):

I even told him "don't rely on my drawings, do your own measurements" before he gave us a quote.

So I guess he didn't want to finish because he underbid the job. It just wasn't worth it to him esp since DH had him mostly paid up, so he was making up all kinds of excuses to not finish the job - maybe figured if I fired him that it would be "better" than him walking out on the job. Poophead.

acountryfarm, would love to see pics!

Everyone, thanks for the support. I just want to get this stupid #(*)#@ thing done before the baby gets here.

Wow, you have a GC and YOU had to nag on the tile guy???? Someone was sure not doing his job on this one! How did he get off the hook? That's what you pay him for.

I'm generically calling the guy who is doing "everything else" that's not plumbing, tile or electrical the "GC." He's not a gc in the traditional sense of the word where he bid out the entire job. He's just my "everything else" guy. I hired the plumber and tile guy, my BIL is an electrician and did the electrical.

I paid him to demo and dispose, rebuild, do all of the carpentry and painting etc, not to chase after moron subs. I'm not sure what else to call him but since he's a generalist who can do it all (just prefers not to do some specialized things that require inspections) I call him the gc ;).

While the construction process itself can be a real PITA at times, your bathroom will be worth the wait.

It's a classic, clean, timeless design.

Kudos!

Hang in there, and here's to hoping that your labor pains in regards to your soon-to-be-born baby are not as difficult to endure as the pains of dealing with the laborer who was supposed to set your tile.

Mongo

kgwlisa --
Here are some pics. one is so similar to yours, although we did blue. It a dorm bath for 6 of our boys. 2 of everything, can't wait for that, oh only 1 tub though.
Theoretically that means 3 can be washing at once.
I included a couple other bath pics. Yellow bath is dd's , since she is only girl of 11 she gets her own bath in her bedroom. There has to be some perks to being the only girl. Also master bath, and one older son's bath ( future guest room).
I went with less expensive subway with different deco bands for cost reasons. Obviously I have a lot of tile.

I did enjoy looking at your beautiful bathroom. I don't know when your baby is due but hope your bath is done in time.
I have had many last minute decorating projects before my babies were due, managed to always get them done.