Tile over tile?

15 years ago

I'm getting conflicting information from contractors and tile installers about whether or not it's "okay" to install new tile over an existing tile floor. The existing floors are in perfectly good shape -- just dated and the wrong colors, etc. This is a late 1950s house, so I'm told the floors are probably set in a thick (4"?) mud base. IF finished height is not a problem (not clear to me yet but we do have to replace the thresholds anyway), is there any mechanical/technical reason to (or NOT to) tile over an existing tile floor? Both contractors who have looked at the job so far have suggested doing so, though one noted that the floor might have to be "roughed" up to get a good bond. I can't tell if they just don't want to deal with the demo (one said he couldn't imagine getting the old tile out without damaging the original mud base -- the tile installer who looked at the job thought it ought to be possible, once you get started, to remove the old tile easily without damage to the underlying mud) or if it really is acceptable practice to use the old tile as a base if it's in good shape.

The tile installer who looked at it said "absolutely not -- you NEVER want to go over existing tile!" So I'm confused....

What's the scoop?

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Comments (9)

edinct
15 years ago
not sure if you can tile over tile, but I would be concerned of the extra weight by adding another layer of tile. Is it a large area? Are you on a slab or have a basement? What size floor joists do you have?
pepperidge_farm
15 years ago
I am fairly certain that I have seen Bill V comment on this subject- if the floors are in good solid condition, you can tile over them, and yes on the roughing up the surface.

It's hard to imagine that one would be able to remove the tile without disrupting the mud bed, I would have thought it would all come up if that is the chosen route, but that is speculation on my part.

We did tile over very fine 1950's mudded tiled floor in the small powder room. No problems, nice and sturdy. Very small floor; floor height not a problem there.
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Tile can go over tile IF the bottom layer is clean and well bonded to the sub floor. If the layer to be covered is at all loose, both layers will come up. Remove any loose grout. Remember: stacking in this way will add to the thickness of the floor, which can be an issue, depending on what the neighboring floors are like. As to grout lines: there will be spaces between the tiles, it isn't possible to eliminate them completely. You can either fill them with nice clean grout, or they'll fill themselves [courtesy of gravity] with bits of dandruff, body hair, spilled milk, sweat, etc. Personally, I vote for grout. How wide the grout lines ought to be depends on the tiles you are using. Most tile is molded to size, then fired. The firing process can cause the tile to deform or shrink slightly, no two will change in quite the same way. The grout allows you to compensate for this. For 12x12 tile, you'll generally want at least an eighth inch grout line, larger tiles generally have larger lines. But some tile is 'rectified', which means it goes through a saw after firing. These are closer to perfect in dimension, and so can use a narrower line: 1/16th usually works for 12x12 rectified. Going narrower may be possible, but requires a higher level of skill than most first timers will manage. You can usually spot a rectified tile by looking at the back and edges. The saw may leave marks, often time it passes through the mold marks in an obvious way. If you aren't sure, contact your tile seller, they can tell you. They should also be able to advise on grout lines, but be wary if they claim you don't need to grout at all: sure sign of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Sanded grout is stronger: the sand works like bricks in a wall, and also resist abrasion. Therefore preferable in most contexts. Traditionally, sanded is used in grout lines of 1/8th inch or larger, unsanded in spaces less than an eighth. This is because the sand matrix doesn't like to be squeezed into really tight areas. Recently I've noticed some sanded grouts that claim they'll work in 1/16th lines. The salseman said they are using a finer ground sand to make this possible. Sounds reasonable to me... You may want to check out the John Bridge forum for more detailed info, or ask on GW's 'Bathroom' board-- that's where our resident professional tile gurus [I'm only an interested amatuer] hang out.
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Remove the old tile and you never have to deal with them ever again. I have always stated that removing tile will work out to be about the same cost as going over top. We always assume that once a tile starts to "let go" in one place it WILL HAPPEN elsewhere. And that means you run the risk of a very expensive install going sideways in 10 years or so. That's very upsetting. To go over top of tile, they have to rough them up (grinder). Then they have to prime them (sometimes twice) and then they have to cover them in cement or "float" the floor with thick mortar. Then the new tile gets put down. Once everything is all paid for, you might save a few Francs....but you will be living with someone else's mistakes from 1979! Heck, I bet you will have an installer that is YOUNGER than the tile floor you are dealing with! The Swiss, Germans and Austrians are masters of the building trades (ahem...they are Germanic/Swiss trades people and not from more Eastern countries???). They don't like doing things "half a$$ed". It isn't their style. I know several German tile setters and several German Stone Masons...not a one of them would voluntarily go over top of old tile. They would all insist that the old ones come out and the new ones go in - properly.
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bill_vincent
15 years ago
You're right. I don't have a problem with it if the existing floor is in good shape-- no cracks in either the tile or grout, and no hollow spots. Rough it up with a coarse sandpaper and use an unmodified thinset mixed straight with a liquid latex additive. Especially if it's set in a mud bed, you couldn't ask for a better substrate. In fact, most tile installers will balk at tearing up an old myd bed because you practically need a stick of dynamite to get it out!

ctlady, where abouts in Ct. are you? I know several installers from around the state (my old stomping grounds, and my sister is still a commercial contractor in North Haven)

You can answer me by email if it would make you feel more comfortable.
ctlady_gw
Original Author
15 years ago
edinct (are you in Connecticut too?) -- the rooms are VERY small and sort of small :) 42 sq. feet total in one case (some of that shower area) and 62 sq feet in the other. I don't know the size of the floor joists but the VERY small room is over crawl space (very easily accessed) -- the other is on the second floor.

The tile installer expressed some concern about how well he could get a "bond" going over the old tile...?
bill_vincent
15 years ago
So long as there's no foreign material, like a topical sealer, or acrylic floor finish, it's not a problem. Trust me-- ask all the DIYers who've left thinset on the face of the tile and tried to get it off afterward!! LOL
ctlady_gw
Original Author
15 years ago
Thanks, all! Sounds as if the ultimate floor height (assuming no "foreign material" and all I see is very old, grungy grout!) is the only real issue.

Except for another one I forgot to ask: these rooms also have tile baseboards a la 1959. Those are NOT in pristine condition (unlike the floors) and they HAVE to come out. How difficult would it be, should we try to go leave the tile (to tile over it), to remove those baseboards without damaging the tile on the floor? How much "collateral damage" could one have on the floor around the edges and still be able to tile over it? (As you can tell, I have no clue how this stuff is done!!)

Alternatively, as the installer suggested, is it likely that the floor tile itself will just "pop off" the mud without too much trouble once one gets started prying it up? I'm assuming it's the original floor from 1959.

(I'm also curious, if anyone can tell me -- is it likely that these are squares (4" x 4" with four pieces in each square) or would this have been laid as separate pieces back in 1959?)

{{gwi:1422168}}
bill_vincent
15 years ago
Actually, it looks like an old American Olean Crystaline tile, the color being Cornflower. Now, AO tried several scored patterns for many years with their 4 1/4 tiles. The most popular were two-- one that had each 4 1/4 with tic tac toe score marks, making it look like 9 pieces of tile. The other had just two score lines, making the tile look like 3 bars. Although 1959 is a little before my time (I was only 2 at the time and didn't set my first tile for another 8 years!), it wouldn't surprise me to find out that what you have is scored 4 1/4" tiles, although it IS also very possible that they're separate pieces.

As for the base, you should be able to get it out without doing too much the the floor. If, as your installer seems to think, it would be that easy to take up the tile off the mud, then it really should come up. But I'll tell you-- I've yet to see a properly mudset floor that didn't come out without an extreme fight, and I DO mean extreme.
palimpsest
15 years ago
aww-- I kind of like the color. Although I am not the one who has to live with it :)
davidro1
15 years ago
ct - have you removed one of the baseboard tiles? Doing so may give you enough of a view onto the floor tiles' substrate. Just a suggestion, to help you confirm that it is what we think it probably is.

Tile over tile?

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