Answering my own question - it bothered me enough to contact the tile saleswoman and she now wants me to meet the supervisor at the job site to tell him what I don't like about it.

try_hard

That's silly. They just need to cut one column of tile to make it all fit on the left. Lazybones...hope you can get it fixed.

Based solely on what I'm seeing here, the whole layout bothers me. On the righthand wall, looking at the large tiles, going from left to right they have a 10.8" tile, a full 12" tile, and a full 12" tile. In my opinion, it ought to be a 11.4" tile, a full tile, and a 11.4" tile. So that there are even-sized cuts at each end.

The other wall is even worse. They have a 1.5" tile sliver, 3 full 12" tiles, and a 7.9" tile. Unless it unavoidable you shouldn't have a tile piece that is less than a half of a tile in a layout. And from this image it certainly seems easily avoidable. In my opinion, it ought to be a 10.75" tile, 2 full 12" tiles, and a 10.75" tile. Again so that there are even-sized cuts at each end.

Additionally either the small tiles should line up with the large tiles, or not line up, but it should be consistant.

Lastly, please tell me that the bucket on the floor doesn't indicate that they used a "premixed thinset" AKA mastic for sticking the tiles to the shower walls. It is wholly unsuitable for use in wet locations.

The fact that they did the layout in such a slipshod manner really makes me question whether they took the right steps to make sure the shower walls and floors were done correctly beneath the tile.

Disclaimer: I am certainly not a tile professional, (one may well be along shortly) but I have read the John Bridge Tile forum alot, and have learned that there are a handful of ways that a shower can be prepared for tiling correctly, and several dozen ways that it is commonly done, that are wrong.

In regards to the backerboard...on the left wall, it appears the spacing between the screws (or nails which is not preferred, but I cannot tell?) is too far apart. Actually, I see very few fasteners. I would be worried if behind the tile already set, inadequate screws were utilized, creating an unstable backerboard.

And the joints are not taped and thinsetted. This should be done....it is taking the "extra" steps, that are also recommended by the manufacturer.

And although the bucket of premix may say it is OK in showers, it is really not recommended. It contains organic matter and will eventually get moldly. Again, this is the difference in a job that the contactor takes the extra steps to produce a better long lasting end product. I would personally throw out anyone that walked into my house with a bucket of premix.

I see some serious problems that may need correcting and certainly should be addressed before it's too late.

I see the pan liner coming through a hole cut in the cement board to the left of the door opening.

What's that all about and how on earth is that going to work. Maybe a few more pictures would help to explain.

What is to happen with that pan liner material that is flapping outside the wall at the door?

Does the shower floor have a pre-sloped floor the vinyl pan liner was placed on as it should have?

Is there a moisture barrier behind the cement board as required?

And what of those nails I see in the walls holding up the tiles? What is being done to insure those nails holes don't penetrate through the cement board and what is being done to close those needless wallboard penetrations?

It would drive me insane to not have all the 2" tiles lined up with the 12" tiles on both sides! Yep; right over the edge, foaming-at-the-mouth, madly insane.

Well folks, I am officially freaking out but at the same time I am so relieved that I posted this question here. DH and I have contacted the builder and copied the pertinent parts of this post into an email to him and requested that he contact me tomorrow to address the concerns you have all voiced. I don't know the first thing about tiling so I can't hazard a guess as to what the tile guys are doing. We have a good relationship with our builder so hopefully this will be resolved to our satisfaction. In the meantime, here are a few more pictures from earlier today.

Thank you!
try_hard

We are going to be doing the same type of tile, with the mosiac and the large tiles, I will have to keep this in mind
Can you tell the name of your tile and color, and where it got it at- I am having a tough time finding a color and i really like yours. Was it expensive?

Wanna hear the kicker? Even though all the other things that have been pointed out are legitimate and serious problems, the one that originally started this thread? The layout of the 2" tiles with reference to the field? I can see why he did what he did, and although I would've done it a little differently, I agree with what he did! Look at the 2x2 cuts in the corner. On the one wall where he lined them up, he's got a good sized cut. if he lined them up on the other wall, he would've ended up with a sliver, so he broke the joint mid-tile. Likewise, if he'd broken the joint mid-tile on the wall where he lined them up, again he would've ended up with a sliver. What he COULD've done, was set BOTH walls up so that the field tile joints would fall at 3/4 tile on BOTH walls, and then he would've had good pieces, and the walls of the shower would've been symetrical.

I COULD get mean and nasty and ask why he worked off full and half tiles from the vanity, instead of centering the tiles in the main part of the room, but not me-- I wouldn't say anything like that.

Yes, it would drive me mad, and I'm glad you have all these helpful tile-smart people above to point out the shockingly many other serious problems!

I hope you get it fixed properly and end up with a great end result!

Know that you are not alone. I'm having somewhat similar problems with our renovation, too. Thank goodness for GW!

Yup.

Who knows what's going on with the liner near the door. Certainly not me. Hopefully the installer has a clue.

I would have laid out the large tiles differently, balanced them better, then tweaked those lines so the 2" squares had good lines too. The solution is there, your installer just didn't think it through.

Make sure that niche and the cement board around it gets a good coat of topical waterproofing before it gets tiled.

If the niches are designed to be the size of one large tile, I would have relocated them to take the place of one whole tile.

And where do you live? Based upon the proximity of the window next to them the niches appear to be on an exterior wall. There could be a bump-out there that puts the niches on an interior wall but it's not obvious from the photo. Realize you'll have zero insulation in that part of the wall and if you're in a cold climate in the winter you may have chilled shampoo. That'll be a treat at 6:00AM.

I'm appalled that the installer is working right on top of the membrane! With nails used a tile spacers! A utility knife! Shards of tile! All it takes is one puncture and the watertight integrity of your shower is toast!

If that membrane is laying on flat subfloor, meaning that the surface beneath the membrane is NOT pitched...which means there is no slope to your membrane...then you're burned toast.

I'm not sure how much of the flat top of the half-wall will be integrated into the shower, but it there any water-tightness on that, or is it just cement board over wood framing?

You were right to stop work on this thing. Too many questions.

Oh gawd. Looking at the pictures closer, was the cement board installed right on top of the existing brown painted wallboard? You have problems if nothing was put between the drywall and the cement board.

And what the heck am I seeing here:

{{gwi:1409733}}

What is the brown that I see in the gap between the 2" squares and the cement board? I should see cement board there, not...painted drywall?

Mongo

Another catastrophe averted (at least halted in time) by G'web...just makes me shake my head thinking about what crimes are committed every day in unsuspecting homeowners' bathrooms and kitchens...

THERE'S MORE!

The HardiBacker product doesn't appear to be nailed properly to the studs. It should be nailed about every four to six inches along the full length of the studs. If this is the case then the tile already installed should be removed so the HardiBacker under the tile can be properly nailed.

It also appears the HardiBacker is placed over drywall, so any nails would have to be of a suitable length to penetrate the 1/4" HardiBacker you have there plus the 1/2" wallboard that is under the HardiBacker.

The two niches are the scariest thing so far (next to the pan liner). It may be premature to criticise the niches but they MUST BE WATERPROOFED, those are not at this time. As rapidly as the tile appears to be progressing I'm wondering if the niches will be waterproofed. The same goes for the partition-wall (left). I assume it will eventually get a glass partition on top? The shower side of that wall also requires waterproofing at the top.

I see now there is no moisture barrier behind the Hardi and there should be in this case, it is required. By the way THAT HardiBacker is for floors but using it on a wall isn't out of the question I suppose if you don't know much about tile. The problem with using over drywall is there will be voids under the HardiBacker that will allow the walls to have some deflection movement that could crack grout from now on.

One of the sheets of HardiBacker has been installed "backside out". In and of itself this shouldn't pose a problem but you have to question the workmanship.

That pan liner really bothers me. There is a big hole behind there. He missed the supporting framing behind there to support the membrane. It looks like he just wrapped it up along the sheetrock??? There needs to be solid blocking behind there.

This shower will fail in short time after commissioning.

I hope you did not pay this guy any money yet?? Where is the curb going with that door frame.

Can you give us close ups of that hole area, and the curb. Take a shot so we can see the whole shower base area.

Yeah, I'm kinda curious as to how today's meeting went. I'll hold off on saying any more until try_hard fills us in.

Plenty of experts have chimed in here with enough advice to tell you that the only acceptable resolution to your problems is to rip all this out and start over. I sincerely hope this is not indicative of the workmanship in the rest of your remodel. It's so sad to see beautiful cosmetic work laid on top of garbage structure that isn't going to hold up. I'm so sorry.

Joe

This would be a good time to urge all prospects to please please please investigate all of your potential contractors before jumping into anything. This scenario is unfortunately very typical of what goes on these days especially with showers.

BE ADVISED - there are rules there are systems there are proven techniques in place that would avoid this type of fiasco. Get references from prospective contractors and VARIFY THOSE REFERENCES. If you can't verify at least three credible references then don't use the guy, and don't trust what you believe to be a reputable sales company to send you a qualified mechanic. Check up on the mechanic not just the sales house.

The TCNA (Tile Council of North America) publishes a handbook that a lot of us go by, see to it that your prospective contractors knows who and what the TCNA is. If they can't tell you who that organization is then skip to the next guy immediately.

And to think this started with a concern over unmatched grout lines.

Try Hard, stick to your guns on this one. Don't let this get glossed over just so you can get the house done and you can get moved in.

Every once in a while one of us reads a photo wrong. But in this case? This shower really bothers me. And everyone else.

When mild-mannered Bud starts using the CAPS LOCK button in his posts, you know you have trouble!

Best, Mongo

Wow, I always learn a lot here. But Bud, I was wondering about your comment that the hardibacker wasn't properly nailed. I thought it should be screwed and NOT nailed. Nails can wriggle loose and screws help ensure the backerboard stays where it's supposed to stay.

Either one is acceptable by both manufacturer and TCNA standards, although i agree with you. I prefer screws for exactly the same reason.

They used nails so I commented on nails. I too prefer screws but I have never seen a nail "wriggle out">
:)

WOW! Aren't you glad you asked!!!!

As soon as my bath remodel begins, I am grabbing my camera and coming HERE with the pictures! Thanks again to everyone who adds so much to this place- I haven't started my bath project yet but this resource has been INVALUABLE to me.

ladycfp,

Rather than waiting until it starts and taking pictures, ask your tile contractor what steps he plans to take, and post that here before he even starts. That might save you the trouble of having it done wrong first, and having it torn out, before having it done right.

While there's no absolute guarantee that a tile contractor who describes a perfect plan will actually do all of the steps in that plan, it is pretty much guaranteed that if a tile contractor plans to do it wrong, he won't accidently do the job right.

Hello. Sorry its taken me so long to respond  work has been crazy this week.

Wednesday afternoon I talked with the tiling supervisor about my concerns regarding the grout lines. He took my questions as a direct order  he had the tilers pull some of the tiles down and rearrange them. But this created new issues because, as I have since learned, the strips of 2"x2" tiles I selected are 1/4" or 1/8" shorter than the 12" tiles, so they wonÂt line up properly anyway. Additionally, the end cap piece thingies I chose (I donÂt know what they are called) are also a different size, so those are not going to line up in a perfect line, either. I found out from the job foreman later that day that the tilers had laid out the whole room before starting and had identified 3 layout possibilities that would work in my bathroom and chose the one that ensured the nicest looking lines in the most visible spaces. (The tiles go along a whole wall and the 2" tiles continue above the tub, around the wall.)

Wednesday night I sent some of your comments to my builder and yesterday we spoke on the phone. He went to the job site and reviewed the work that the tilers have done and he was satisfied with it. He has full confidence that his tilers are using acceptable materials and methods. I repeated some of your questions and suggestions to him and asked him if any of the things you mentioned were problems in his opinion. He felt everything was being done in an appropriate manner. But this was a tough conversation because I know nothing about tile so I couldn't converse intelligently with him about it; all I can do is repeat what you said. For example, if I had asked why they used nails instead of screws and he told me why he likes nails, I could not have made a credible argument that screws are better. All I know is what I read on this post; heÂs been doing this  successfully - for 25 years. So I need to either (1) trust what he's doing or (2) call off the build completely or (3) locate a tiler who is supposedly better than the guys working for my builder and bring him in for a second opinion and have him argue with my builderÂs tilers about whose methods are best.

I also showed the shower pictures to a family acquaintance who is a long-time builder in my area and he felt that what they were doing and the materials they were using would be fine. He commented that he wished they had staggered the tiles instead of lining them all up but that was an aesthetic preference only. He pointed out that the builder is using backerboard instead of just using greenboard, which he says is a popular, cheaper approach.

DH and I discussed this at length and have decided, for a number of reasons, to trust our builder on this matter. I've been very, very happy with everything that has happened so far during our build. He has bent over backwards to accommodate our wishes in a variety of areas and takes great pride in his work. I am choosing to believe him when he tells me that his tilers work product is up to snuff. This builder has been building lovely homes in my area for 25 years and I've toured half a dozen of his homes and they look terrific.

I know that my response will be disheartening or frustrating to some of you, especially those who had fervent responses to my original post. Some of you will think weÂre making a terrible decision that we will come to regret. I guess this is a case of us receiving free advice and choosing not to take it.

I do want to thank you for pointing out the things that concerned you in the photos - that's what makes GW such a great resource.

try_hard
...

Well, I'm glad you are feeling better about it, at least...

Could I ask a quick question? I notice containers of C-cure mastic around there...do you know what mortar your installer is using? Is he using that mastic in the buckets? Or something else that he mixes up from dry powder?

Flyleft - I'm sorry, I don't know what he is using.

try_hard

bfletcher1:

You said:
We are going to be doing the same type of tile, with the mosiac and the large tiles, I will have to keep this in mind. Can you tell the name of your tile and color, and where it got it at- I am having a tough time finding a color and i really like yours. Was it expensive?

The large tiles are Ristano in color "Crema". They are available in 12"x12" and 18"x18", maybe other sizes. The 2"x2" mosaic is Steppington in color "Baronial Beige". I doubt they were expensive, as they are builder's grade tiles.

try_hard

Good for you try_hard. I was in your situation of being clueless on the tile install and just opted to TRUST what the guy was doing. There are soooo many wonderful well meaning people on this board, I just love being able to turn here for advice etc. However in your case I feel bad when all you posted was a question and it spawned into making you think you need to rip your shower out and throw yourself out a window. :))

Nails versus screws really does not matter.

You need to know if:

1) a waterproofing material (usually 6-mil sheet polyethylene plastic) was put on the walls before the cement board was installed. REASON: Tile and grout are not necessarily waterproof. Water can get through the grout, trust me, and through the cement board. Cement board is not damaged by water, but water can pass through it. When it does get through it you want that wate to hit something waterproof...like ployethylene...and not drywall, which will wet crumble, and fail.

If you have no barrier like poly behind the cement board, then you have a code violation. Plain and simple.

2) Same with the half wall. Cement board, tile and grout will not keep water from getting to the framing beneath. You need something more. That wall will rot out. That is a code violation.

3) Will there be a topical waterproofing like RedGard put on the cement board that makes up the niches? If not, you'll be admitting water into those framing bays. Rot. Mold. And yes, without a barrier you have yet another code violation.

4) If you stand on the floor membrane, is it sloped to the drain or is it flat? If flat, you have a code violation. Creating a slope with a layer of mud will give you a preslope, but that still does not cut it. A membrane sitting flat on a subfloor is a code violation.

And again, in your very first picture, that flap of membrane that is flapping out in front of your cement board? That needs to be behind the cement board, and the (non-existent?) poly sheeting behind the cement board should lap on top of that membrane. What dies that add up to? Yup, another water intrusion point and yet another code violation.

I hope this works out for you, but I'd also use this shower a lot when you move in so any problems with it occur while your homeowners warranty is still in effect.

Keep an eye on the curb, on the walls and on the ceiling below for any signs of water damage. ALso keep an eye on the floor tile itself, if it ever starts drying unevenly, that's yet another warning sign.

Oh, and using cement board instead of greenboard? That's nothing to be overly proud of either since using greenboard as a tile backer in a shower is also...did you guess...a code violation. Greenboard was prohibited as a tile backer over two years ago.

Best, Mongo

Thanks for the comment, Scottmel.

It was tough because I know that every single person who responded to my question has my best interests at heart and wants me to get the best work product possible. It's like I had a dozen people on my side, fighting for me. I'll be honest with you - as I typed up my response, I felt like I was disappointing everyone on the Bathrooms forum by not halting the work and insisting everything be done differently.

What I have learned from this whole building experience is that if I ever do it again, I will learn more about things like tiling prior to negotiating the contract so that I can specify that certain materials and methods be used. For this build, I spent all my time researching appliances, paint, kitchen cabinets, lighting fixtures, and plumbing fixtures. It never occurred to me that I would need to be educated about tile and mastic and backerboard and such - in my mind, that was supposed to be the Builder's responsibility! But now I know.

This has been the only "Big Deal" with our build. When people found out we were building they told us horror stories about their builds or made jokes that it might drive us to divorce court (thankfully that's not the case!) but this has been a fantastic experience and I credit it all to our builder. He is organized, professional, experienced, patient, enthusiastic, respectful, and wholly engaged in our project - all this while he has half a dozen spec homes under construction. It has been wonderful working with him and that made it that much harder for me yesterday when I questioned his tiling decisions.

Anyway, I truly do appreciate everyone's concern and caretaking. I hope that my decision on this matter won't preclude me from asking for and receiving advice in the future. This is a great forum and the folks on here are an invaluable resource.

try_hard

try hard, I fully understand your retreating. I hope this all goes well for you. I guarantee you, you have thrown yourself under a bus for all these other people that will gain from this experience of yours.

That contractor did what anyone would expect him to do, he defended his shoddy work and uneducated practices to the hilt.

Just because the builder has built a lot of homes doesn't mean he practices industry standards when it comes to tile. He may have the best reputation in the world at home building but what he is allowing to happen to unsuspecting buyers is shame.

Defend these guys all you want and don't feel bad about allowing the work to continue, just be damned sure you get a written warranty on that sinful shower.:)

...and I didn't even use any CAPS this time, but I feel I should have.

Let me echo Bud's and Mongo's sentiments. My best wishes to your build.

one other thing-- don't feel beholden to us. We're only trying to help you avoid problems. You go with your gut. No hard feelings. :-)

Try-hard
my BIL who is builder and very very handy and capable person once told me that he can build two houses with a 100K difference and you would not know any difference.
I live in 60 year old house and when I try to do any remodeling I can clearly see that this house was built to last forever/ which does not make my remodeling any easier ;)
BTW my tub/ shower surround was built with 3/4 plywood and nails and it took 60 years for grout to go bad. Nails did go rusty but even then it was a PITA to pry them out.
Hopefully things will work out for you and if not, you will have this forum to fall back on and learn and DIY what needs to be done.

P.S. Maybe in a few years you will be happy to have a nice excuse to remodel to accommodate your new taste/ fashion ;)

Folks, it seems like you're all getting hung up over this nails versus screws thing. BOTH are acceptable. If nails were unreliable, they wouldn't be acceptable. I just don't like to take any chances. Don't judge an installer just on the fact that he uses nails instead of screws.

You really need to at least straighten out and confirm the pan liner will be constructed correctly. For water issues, this should be your main concern.