actually - I think I gave the wrong model number.

Instead of a capsule system I was thinking about a model with a bean grinder.

Something like - Miele CVA4070

Thanks.

We were getting a demo of one and other than standing next to it, there was no scent that we could detect a few feet away.

By the way, you may want to reserach the capabilities of them. While they look fantastic, we were disappointed with what people had to say. Serious coffee drinkers say it does not perform better than average and claim the guts are from a low-end manufacturer. And that the temp of the coffee (and hot water for tea) is very low. So by the time you add something to your coffee, it is cold. Someone measured the temps and I recall the tea section being 160 which is pretty low (our tabletop model is 185 and that is just hot enough -- 200 to 210 is more like it). The coffee side I think was 175.

I also didn't like the slow rate of water coming out of the hot water side.

Someone also complained that it leaked a few times and ruined their kitchen floor.

It is a shame really. As having a clean integrated unit would be fantastic from functionality and overal presentation. The serious espresso machines look industrial in contrast....

Thanks for the reply. I had no idea there were so many problems with these systems - but they do seem kind of complicated.

I'll continue to research, but I'm placing this lower on the wishlist.

amirm,
Thanks for the details of your post. Could you say which unit you were referring to by the way????

I don't drink coffee but I hate seeing the coffee makers etc. on the counter so we had really wanted to get one of these things. Sadly, and remarkably, this was one of the items we forgot(!) to investigate when actually planning our kitchen remodel. Recently, DH decided to purchase a new espresso maker, and I really renewed my feelings of regret for having forgotten to account for the coffee maker. We could have fit one in in the house but despite my pushing and trying to convince him ;-) DH wasn't thrilled about the coffee/espresso out of one of these units :-(, so that was that. I had thought that I could use the hot water out of the unit for my tea BUT now I am really glad, having read your post, that I hadn't fought harder at that battle. I'm a bit serious about my tea and don't like to make it with the "hot water" out of most even commercial coffee systems coz I don't find them hot enough for a good tea brew. Therefore, I boil the water each time to make sure it is hot enough to make a good cup of tea - I would not have been amused to get not-hot-enough water from the unit.

I'll have to reconcile myself to continuing to boil my water I suppose and to dealing with an industrial espresso-maker sitting on the countertop for DH's coffee.

Miele is going to be releasing a firmware upgradable coffee system, and some of the showrooms have them installed as they are fine-tuning them to the user preferences. 2009 is the year set for the new lineup with this feature.

Mindstorm, the unit I was looking at was the 4075 which is the same as 4070 but with permanent water connection.

I have linked below the review of the older model which looks pretty much the same as the current one.

Here is some feedback thread: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/398111

And the mother of all forums for coffee where I did a search for Miele: http://coffeegeek.com/forums/search?RET=%2Fforums&DO=&Form_Search=miele+coffee+system&Form_Author=&Form_Forum=&Form_AsPosts=1&Form_Before=1&Form_Days=&Form_SortField=SearchRank&Form_Descending=1&Form_Submit=Search+Discussions

Fahrenheit may be right. We got a brochure on all the future Miele product and they show a new coffee system. Unfortunately, it didn't say anything about it. So maybe you want to avoid buying "last year's model" :).

Here is a link that might be useful: Review of the older model

OK - after having spent a few hours today looking at alternatives, I've decided to go away from super automatic built-ins and maybe go with something a little more manual:

http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/vivaldi_2

This was discussed in the "Espresso" thread on this forum.

Not the same look as the built-in, but looks like good quality. If we design some kind of 'garage' for it in the kitchen - it shouldn't be too much of a smell hazard for my wife.

The Vivaldi is a sweet machine indeed -- definitely towards the high end of the home machine market. But at 65 lbs, I don't think it's practical to be moving it in and out of an appliance garage. Also, it needs to be plumbed in, though the water supply hookup could be flexible to allow for some limited movement. For maximum convenience you can also plumb the drain, but that means a hole in the countertop, so that would really commit you to keeping the machine in one location.

I think the main source of noticeable odors would be the spent grounds, which with a semi-automatic machine are easily disposed of as you make each cup -- unlike a built-in or any superautomatic, where they accumulate in a bin until you empty it. The next possible odor source would be the grinder, which does hold some coffee dust and oils on the burrs, as well as some stray grounds that don't get purged with each use. With my grinder, I don't notice any smell at all unless I stick my nose right up next to the burrs, but I suppose it's conceivable that someone with a super-sensitive nose might be able to smell it from across the room. Hopefully it will be a non issue, but in the absolute worst case, I think a plastic cover of some kind that slips over the grinder would isolate any possible odor. Or -- maybe also -- you could keep the grinder in an appliance garage. A grinder suitable for the Vivaldi will weight at least 20 lbs, but it could probably be slid in and out of a suitably sized garage. (Note: while a quality espresso grinder will be at least 17 inches tall with the bean hopper, some home users -- myself included -- remove the hopper and just fill the grinder with one measured dose of beans at a time.)

As for the machine itself, I think it is a non issue. If an espresso machine is kept clean, it should have no coffee residue on any exposed parts, and should be virtually smell-free when not in use.

amrim- you have chosen to believe one side of the "internet story". I saw the post you're refering to , or one very similar and the end user didn't give all teh dirt or is ignorant when it comes to using that machine. The water temps are adjustale in almost all units. Set it as hot or cold as you can stand it. You can also vary the amount of water, the amount of beans, the size of the grind, ect.. A good cup of coffee is possible, if you know how to adjust it properly AND are inclined to do so. Some people may not want to take the time to set it up right or change the settings for different users, and I totlally understand that given the price. But, that is totally user dependant and no reflevtion on the machines as a whole. By the way, most are made buy a reputable Italian firm and are of good build quality.

I believe what one of the orig. commentators said was that the "superautomats" did not make as good a cup as the professional stand alone models and were not as robust either. Couple that with the fact that they are in the same price range, and the built-ins become a less attractive value proposition to most folks. This is ENTIRLEY different from "those machines suck, are poor quality, and don't even make a good cup of coffee. I'm not a coffee snob, but have several friends that are and they are quite pleased at my places that have the built-in. Whatmost people are looking at with the built in is convience, style, and snob appeal. SOme may find the style of a stand alone commercial unit more appealing, everyone has different needs and tastes, America's great isn't it?

As far a smells go , the things I find are the strength and freshness of the beans can cause an odor near sonme machines, and probably the most offensive is the smells that come from not emptying the "puck" container and the drip trays. If these aren't emptied often - or you forget and go away for a while you can come back to a nice science project and it smells gooood.

mrblandings - I understand about the plumbing, etc. - I guess what I meant to say was some kind of fixed garage space with a cabinet door that opens to the machinery. The machine would stay in place but I would be able to close it off if I wanted. We're still going over cabinet design so we might be able to work something out. I hadn't thought of a drain - but that sounds like a good idea (if we can find the space). I'll also have to take the grinder space into account.

Thanks for the heads up on sources for smells.

skinny_gardener,

Built-in coffee systems are such a conversation piece. Why would you want to hide it?

You also realize Miele has a Capsule System? Here are the instructions and installation manual of a Whole Bean Model.

skinny_gardener -- from your response on the drain issue I'm not sure my comment was entirely clear. Plumbing in the drain doesn't take any more room -- the drain line would go through the counter underneath the machine, so water in the machine's drip tray flows out. If you don't plumb the drain, then you have to periodically empty out the drip tray -- which for typical home use volumes is not such a big deal -- but as long as you're in the process of designing a permanent space for the machine, the plumbed drain is a nice feature. Also, as long as you're in the design phase, consider a 20 amp dedicated circuit if you do go with the Vivaldi. (Note: I think many users are perfectly happy with the 15 amp version -- whose only limitation is that it cannot run both boilers at the same time -- but if you're running new wires, the incremental cost is probably negligible).

The enclosing cabinet is an interesting idea, though as farenheit_451 says, you do lose the effect of the machine as a design feature. If you do go with the garage approach, make sure you consider the possible effects of the machine's steam and heat output on the cabinetry.

My advice is to talk to Chris Coffee before you buy the machine while you are still in the design phase. They should be able to give you solid advice on how to set up a space that will work for the machine.

Antss, do you have the Miele machine? If so, can you please measure the temp on High for both hot water and coffee and report back? That would be the best way to counter the reports online :).

Just to address your comments, for a machine costing as much as this one, it would have to be near perfect. Yet I have a hard time finding many positive reports on it. If it were a $500 unit, then sure, I would take my chances with it. But not at this price. Our portable Japanese hot water dispenser puts out perfect temp water for tea and with its teflon coating, never needs cleaning in our area. It costs 10% of the Miele. So if the Miele doesn't perform as well, then it is a no-go.

mrblandings - thanks for the info. Maybe I can work out a place in the open on the counter. Plumbing shouldn't be a problem at all - just have to plan for it. As we get further along I will check with Chris Coffee.

Thanks again.

amirm- can't give you exact readings on the Miele, It's at my lake house 2 hours away. I do know that the max. water temp setting is 220 degrees- plenty hot for tea, coffee,espresso and/or burning your lip. It's actually a little less at the spout as it cools off a few degrees in the delivery system and hitting the cold cup after leaving the heater.

Tomorrow, I can give you the temps on the Gaggenau unit if you want.

I'm building a house and am also in the market for a Miele CVA4075 plumbed, built-in coffee system and heard that a new one is coming out in February 2009, and I wanted to see what the new features/fixes were on this model. I read that it will actually keep milk cold for up to 12 hours and fahrenheit_451 mentions "firmware upgradable coffee system" but I don't know what that is. Can you explain? Does anyone know if this new 2009 system will accept taller coffee mugs (e.g. big tumblers for coffee to go) or offers a drain-out option like your dishwasher?? If you know of any plumbed/built-in coffee system that does the drain-out and you want to share it with me, I'd love that info too!! thank you!!

Seattle- firmware upgrade will not concerne you if you don't know whta it is. Mostly a marketing tag anyway. Their DW's have had this feature for years.

The 5000 series will accept taller glasses, but I'm not sure it will take the taller insulated travel mugs. Looks liek a tumbler or perhaps a pint sized glass. I skipped KBIS this year to take advantage of the 2' of snow last week in Vail- so I haven't actually seen the prototype.

here's a pic from the advanced hype:

http://www.mielepressroom.com/us/press/5.aspx?img=/media/presse/images/VG_USA/Macchiato.jpg&prevHeight=700&download=yes

I am not aware of any built-in that have a drain feature. The nature of their design makes it prohibitive or impossible as the doors swing, or units pull out on runners.

SeattleMamaDrama,

Miele's firmware feature is to allow newer temperature programs for newer coffee capsule that may be released, and to fine-tune algorithms for the existing hardware so it is far from a "marketing tag." One easy means of determining the clearance for coffee mugs is to simply call Miele whereby they will assist you: (800) 843-7231

P.S. I am not affiliated with Miele is any way. And I've never known of Miele selling "hype" versus what they really sell: engineering.

451 - you illustrate my point exactly. What cup of expresso needs a "fine tune alogrithim" to taste great. The Italian barristas would laugh you out of their shops if you brought up mathmatics in making an espresso.

Miele's first generation built-in allows you to customize the temps and it doesn't have a firmware flash memory.

Since the new 5000 generation doesn't offer a Nespresso version (yet?) flashing the drive for a "new" capsule that Nestle may come up with is kinda pointless wouldn't you say? Do you suppose Nestle is going to make a capsule that's not going to preform well in the 10's of thousands of machines their partners have already sold worldwide without a major upgrade of those systems? NO.

Where do you suppose the built-in mandate came from in the first place at the turn of the century? Do you think an engineer came to the suits one day and said: look what I just came up with - we could make these coffee machines built in next to our ovens? -or- Is it more likely the boys over in marketing looked at the landscape and said how are we gonna increase sales and broaden our market? I know.... we can offer a steam oven, a fancy microwave, American sized ovens, and a built in coffee system to complement our existing cleaning , cooking , laundry and ventilation lines. Now you fellas in engineering go figure out how to make one. Later it was refridgeration which Miele has never really been able to engineer themselves. Why do you think their newest offering is coming from Bosch? BTW the coffee systmes are still outsourced from Italian companies.

So, at the end of the day the computer upgrade (while nice and better to have than not because it gives you options) is EFFECTIVELY a marketing vehicle. Do a poll on how many times people around here have had their Miele dishwashers upgraded. The feature has been on those for around a decade. Did people get them flashed when the new tabs hit the market a few years ago? Nope. Liquid detergents? Nope. ect...

Perhaps you're too young to remember Miele's last engineering hype. Buy another one of our well designed cutlery trays and you can simply swap the clean tray out of the DW into the drawer for the second one. They fit perfectly in the 60 cm German cabinet drawers. No one is immume from sales tactics. Sales drive companies, not engineers. Engineers play a large part but because the sales guys would have anything to peddle if the wonks come up with garbage. The only things I know that sells itself is gas, domestic water, electricity, and nat. gas. Even those guys try to "sell" you that one brand or type is better than another.

And I've never known of Miele selling "hype" versus what they really sell: engineering.

Antss: No one is immume from sales tactics. Sales drive companies, not engineers. Engineers play a large part but because the sales guys would have anything to peddle if the wonks come up with garbage. The only things I know that sells itself is gas, domestic water, electricity, and nat. gas....

Antss just put out another brilliant post.

Note: Rest of the writeup not germane to coffee systems smells per se.

Miele, Bluestar, Wolf, ... they all make very good products but make no mistake that these are private companies each looking to do one thing and one thing well - maximize sales, maximize revenue. They're not in their business for your health - it is self-interest and a desire to convince you to part with your money that enables them to exist. Some part of that "maximize sales" comes from putting out good product; a lot of it comes from having a brand distinguishing widget (or twenty).

Now I have some of the Miele products and on the whole, I am delighted with their performance. That said, it is my opinion that as a shopper I can afford to be discriminating (seeing as how it's my money), and that companies need to win my business; they are not entitled to it. A bit of healthy scepticism lets you serve your own self-interest when shopping for a product and allows you (ok, me) to at least mentally separate "requirements" from "embellishments". I must say that while one hears about "savvy shoppers" there are times the GW makes you wonder sometimes just how savvy shoppers are. Brand loyalty and blind euphoria seems to trump rationality here at times. While it is true that a delighted consumer is the best advertisement, well, some of the "adverts" here seem to the sceptical shopper (me) more like coolaid-drinking than a decent parsing of product features (as opposed to "features").

BTW, 'tis a sad day when an appliance vendor such as antss writes with a more even keel than do the "consumers" in advocating taking at least some of the product pitch (lest anyone take "hype" too personally) with a grain of salt, about tempering the euphoria a little bit, and pressing that scepticism button now and then. I know he likes and believes in Miele's products, and I'm sure he likes the profit margins he sees from them. And, yet, HE the voice of caution telling us that: wait! not every facet and every button on that miele box is an output of teutonic lab-work guaranteed to improve your life?! (Same argument can be made to Bluestar doyens).

Now as a research engineer myself, I confess that antss comments wound me at least a little bit. But I must say, his write up about shopping philosophy as well as the suit vs engineer charge has been spot on.

mindstorm - wasn't trying to dig at the hi IQ crowd to pump up the sales weasels. I just hate seeing broad statements on the internet that later get taken as gospel because "I saw it on the internet, it must be true" 451's statemennt while partially correct is not the entire story. Miele also sells: service, luxury, reliability, snob appeal, health consciencess, and convience as well as engineering. I do realize the engineers often come up with viable ideas in their R@D projects that the marketing guys have to scramble to try and figure out how to sell or get produced at saleable levels, especially saftey items. It's just been my experience that the usual M.O. is that the scientists / production people have to fiqure a way to deliver what the palace has requested no matter how easy or outlandish.

Miele's wonks come up with some stinkers too. The engineers couldn't get the steam generator connections on the early coffee sys right and many were prone to premature failure and leaks. Miele took care of most with free parts even after the warranties past.

In re-reading my post I notice (in addition to the bad grammar and horrible spelling) that none of it really is germaine to the "smell" issue. Sorry all, I figured this thread had petered out and was just setting the record straight FWIW. I thought Mrblandings did an eloquent job of detailing the smell culprits and the merits/drawbacks of these systems in general.

I am taking the other side of the fence on this one, and view more of what Miele is trying to accomplish in the light of serviceability, and future product development, as demonstrated in this excerpt:
Using Mieles proprietary wireless local area network (WLAN) technology and application software, enabled products will have a 24/7 connection to MieleÂs monitoring center. This "virtual link" is established allowing a secured transmission of vital temperature and performance data. If a significant fault occurs, MieleÂs client service center will be notified and contact the homeowner or another trusted individual identified on their call roster in order to gain access to the home and fix the problem immediately. By the end of 2008, this technology will be extended to many of MieleÂs appliances including dishwashers, ovens, coffee systems, washing machines and tumble dryers.

Reference: Press Release No. 008/2007

These arguments remind me very much of when computers, and the internet was evolving from an academic purpose to a universal purposeÂsome saw the light, others fought it until the reality set-in. Miele is obviously embarking on a service based system not unlike Mercedes, and BMW did when they realized that they were in need of a different approach; much to the ire of the independent service and sales. Given the social/economic group that Miele pretty much caters to, this evolution only seems natural. Since the firmware is not only serviceable, the electronics it a component of can also yield important information regarding MTBF, MTTF, MTTR, and fine-tuning of appliances to better service the consumer.

Miele told me that Bosch is making their new refrigerator, and I have no issue with that as the Germans (as well as the Japanese) frequently cross-manufacture. Miele is adding their RemoteVision to make theirs with an extended feature. I also know others are ready to enter the same playing field. I close in saying that I still believe that Miele is not selling hype, I also believe that marketing cannot drive a product if there is no engineering substance; without the engineering it is then that you are selling hype. Consumers who are paying this much for product are quick to recognize the difference.

The Miele 60 cm cutlery trays seem only natural if at the time Miele was really more European based with the US market being accommodated through language, and other minor changes for what was essentially a European product. Sounds more like a US marketing mistake versus a Miele mistake.

I just hate seeing broad statements on the internet that later get taken as gospel because "I saw it on the internet, it must be true"

Well, my agenda is different then. I just want to see folks ask the tough questions. It bugs me when I see people calibrate requirements using brand line offerings essentially saying brand-X (Miele, Bluestar, other) offers said feature therefore I must need it; Brand-Y doesn't have that feature and therefore it is a lesser-being.

Fahrenheit-451: internet was evolving from an academic purpose to a universal purposesome saw the light, others fought it until the reality set-in
But I'm not advocating fighting "it", F-451! I'm actually advocating emulating the academic and asking the elemental questions: what does this feature do? why do I need it? why is it better? etc. Academics are actually a tough-sell because they look for answers to questions like the above and loyalty to *anything* or *anyone* is not in their genetics.
There is a famous aero-astro prof. out of a top-ranked engineering school in the NorthEast who would always say of any research proposal you went to him with: why is this good? Why should you do this? And then: When will you know you're done?
It was maddening at the time but it is an excellent principle for any sort of research venture. Aerospace or appliances.
(BTW, the outcome of all of that was, that knowing the questions to ask is the singularly hardest part of any venture).

obviously embarking on a service based system not unlike Mercedes, and BMW did when they realized that they were in need of a different approach
Alright excellent! Here's my experience with BMWs. I have had BMW-1 for several years (excellent car) and we have just bought BMW-2, so I obviously like their products (BTW, we did look for more than just BMWs when looking for car-2 *grin*) This life-altering parts-saving, pre-emptive service policy however, ... not quite so life altering. I've had inconvenient failures on my car about as often as I've had inconvenient failures on the Toyota (the one that is being replaced by BMW-2). Furthermore, every time I've taken the car in for service or repair, I've brought it back (within the week 90% of the time) for post-service relief for some sort of resetting of the system because not only had their on-board system not detected the original failure, even in the shop, they can't even quite calibrate a newly reconfigured installation. Ask about the sensor-based, anticipatory service paradigm and basically the answer is that they collect what data they collect, process what data they can process, but ultimately upkeep is simply "not that different" from another car, as per the "BMW service advisor". Basically, this is a hard problem and just collecting data isn't a palliative. A lot of the time, it is hard to know what to collect, and for most of the rest of the time, it is hard to get a sensor rigged where you need it and sending the data back to the computer to store it (i.e. comms).

Now, we've bought a second car from them, so obviously we like the products they sell and like the service etc. they can offer. But I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that their service paradigm - as data intensive as it may be - is at the end of the day all that different from any other.

One of the biggest fallacies of the day is that high-technology=data-on-a-chip. NASA will tell you and the military will tell you - okay, they won't admit to you but they will tell some of us - that they are drowning in data they've collected and don't know what to do with. There are terra-bytes of data collected that has never been looked at by any program.
Modeling failures is not that easy. It is still an active research area to see what to measure and how to identify when a mechanical, electrical, or electronic subsystem has failed (failure detection) is failing (modeling failure modes) AND THEN to identify just what part it is that has failed or is failing. And to the best of my knowledge, that is being done in academic labs, not in engineering companies: ie. it is basic research as opposed to applied research

Anyhow, this is at least many OTs from the subject. Miele is an excellent company. Go forth and prosper with their stuff, but just dial down the rhetoric.

Mindstorm,

With all due respect we are not discussing multiple delivery warheads, or tactical nukes, it is more along the line of some basic mechanical functions with some electronics thrown into the mix; this pretty much limits the data collection to workable analysis. Both the German and Japanese struggle with products, and processes in the US (as demonstrated by their having German or Japanese nationals here who report to the parent company for all decisions). It is the cultural value differences that wreak havoc on the service of foreign goods (like the BMW, or Miele). Having qualified personnel work on expensive products is ideal, but not always the standard in the US; just reading these forums yields many a backup to this statement.

The initial comment led to me posting that Miele has a new lineup in the works with some more technical features for the consumer. One would consider this yet another option to consider, but instead it becomes marketing hype. Great, if I worked for Miele, which I do not.

Much of what the consumer deals with, in the way of frustration, would be somewhat satisfied if all service bulletins were public knowledge (something I believe legislation should make mandatory since a consumer purchases a good, they should therefor have knowledge of any issues), but typically, unless it is a recall, the consumer goes along in the dark and uses forums like these to air their concerns and gather information.

"...the outcome of all of that was, that knowing the questions to ask is the singularly hardest part of any venture.
I could not agree more.

The core Miele custome isn't interested in whether a fault 41 on a DW is a heater pressure switch malfunction or a blocked impeller. They simply want to know when their DW will clean the dishes again. Today is better than next week.

"something I believe legislation should make mandatory "

Just what we need.................more leglislation to grow an already excessivly large government. What ever happened to personal responsibility??? Who's going to pay for the administration and compliance police, the taxpayer? The 6.2849 people that are really interested in the service bulletins can call up Miele and ask, they give them to you without having to sue them. You can also call an authorized servicer and pay for an hour of his time, and I'll bet most will fax you a copy of the appliance bulitans you require.

Antss,

First off, no one said anything about suing, large government, or added administrationall negative buzz words on your part. A properly run government is what yields a civilized society; privatize everything and your tax dollars drain away with zero accountability (another very long and in depth topic for other forums, academia, and government). For some reason, you have an aversion to the disassimilation of information (I have read other posts by you in other threads). You think it's bad, misleading, taken for face value. Why even participate on forums if you feel this way?

A simple section on a manufacturer's website with PDFs of service bulletin would help consumers I can tell that some do not reveal their service bulletins, but I will not go into the detail here.

P.S. Miele is getting to know me by first name these days with all my inquiries about their products (my wife and I wish to redo our kitchen). I have spoken with their tech, marketing, and customer services asking questions that have never been asked before. Maybe I should sue them? Hey, maybe they should sue me?!

451 - you must obviously be obtuse.

If a law doesn't exsist to make info mandatory and is passed it's quite obvious that some agency is going to have to chaperone the program or one created. This will cost $$$$$$$$$, it will have to come from somewhere. Do you want us to take the $$$ form one of your state's programs, or mabey we can take it from Alaska or N.Dakota- they don't have many voters after all?

Ah, I just thought of something that you probably already did. We'll just get some economies of scale, synergies, become more productive, merger agencies and then we won't have to get any $$$ for this NEW program. When in recent memory has D.C. accomplished this. They standby is to raise more $$$ and expand the government.

************* note to the sleepy, parts of the preceding passage contain sacarsm and were not meant to offend politicos, MBA's or other groups ********************

You obviously can't read between the lines, The info IS repeat IS available already, and I'm not opposed to making it availabe. Miele has given it to you. As you have found out the typical high end appliance buyer doesn't care about it. I am opposed to regulation and needless non productive work and expenditures bogging down the majority for the VERY few folks that do. If a manuf. is not willing to provide you with the info you request, or has a lackluster product or poor service do the American thing and vote with your wallet - you have many choices. the capitalistic system is designed to reward excellence and punish laggards. Don't be a crybaby and run to Uncle Sam to regulate your life because a company isn't treating you with white gloves.