The tax issue has come up before but most(all?) states require you to pay a use tax on purchases out of state or on the internet. Whether you pay it voluntarily or possibly get caught (more likley with large purchases) is your choice.

As far as bargaining, you can certainly show the dealer the online prices you can obtain - often dealers will try to match them. They can also sweeten the deal with free delivery, installation, extended warranties, etc. particularly on the price fixed items.

I understand the benefits of buying local; I am an economist. I was wondering, from a dealer's point of view, how they address the issue, as I would imagine a good number of appliance-buyers would prefer to buy online.

So the bargaining chips I have are free delivery, installation, disposal of old apps, extended warranties...anything else?

I am hoping that if purchase a Liebherr fridge, Miele DW, and E'lux oven they'll toss in a KA warming drawer for free.

How do dealers calculate any of this? I am so fed up with the price-fixing schemes and all of this. I just phoned up someone in another state and said 'listen, I know what you can advertise at, I know what you can sell for, I know that you can ship out-of-state, I know that you can throw in free s/h. And if you don't I'll call the next guy; you want my business? I was a little nicer, but not much. He said OK, after first starting to try to say he couldn't, no, etc, etc. It was fairly straight-forward in the end. And annoying. But I figure if *those* guys (manufacturers and distributors) can collude on prices, then we consumers can as well.

Am I addressing the thread or ranting about my own stuff? sorry.

As for whether the dealer will offset your tax prices, often they can and will. I present them with my perspective: this is what it will cost me from your out-of-state colleague. I would rather buy from you as you live down the street and all the other good reasons, and that has some associated cost. But not $800-worth. And they'll do what they can or will. I think one of your biggest bargaining chips is the volume of your total purchase; don't exclude the fixed-price items. They're the ones bringing him the most profit I'm guessing, and that's what you're threatening to walk away with. Plus it's via something like "no tax" that he can functionally markdown the fixed-price items anyway.

Weissman makes the point that we're all supposed to be paying tax regardless of origin of purchase anyway. But we (most of us) don't, so, ....

Bargaining chips include multi-items purchased, a smile and not being a jerk, knowing your stuff and therefore consuming less of their time, shipping/handling, tax, start-date of warranty (not sure that qualifies as bargaining chip), competitors' prices, coupons.

My take on it is apart from the ecological 'rightness' of buying locally, buying from someone who provides careful service (which would not, by and large, be the large internet retailers, at least not via internet sales; I think many of them are in fact "local" dealers to those who live next door and provide careful service to them; a sort of two-tiered setup). Anyway, what the "local" guys provide is a measure of insurance against something going wrong. They can be your advocate. This can be important...

Oh, and another bargaining chip potentially is good internet reviews! ;)

"I understand the benefits of buying local; I am an economist"

So , you are simply choosing to ignore them so you can get a "free" warming drawer ??? What's the greater long term cost (to everyone in the chain) of that "free" warming drawer?

No one gives a hoot about your tax bill, we all can sympathize , but you don't complain about being able to use your county and state roads or the police or fire dept that protect you.

Pay your taxes, if you think they are too high , then get active to lower or eliminate them.

Oh, just in case you didn't get weisman's drift - YOU DON"T SAVE TAXES ON INTERNET PURCHASES OF APPLIANCES! You are still supposed to report and pay those when you buy out of state. Many choose to be a scofflaw on this issue , but that or ignorance doesn't change the law. You can choose to break it or not, this is America! From a dealer's view: you owe tax no matter where you buy so it's a non issue! Any dealer worth his salt is not even going to engage in that discussion with you.

"is there no way around the rest" - not unless you start your own country somewhere. There is sales tax just about everywhere.

"I am hoping they'll toss in a KA warming drawer for free. "

ROTFL- that's not going to happen. Even though you are spending 13,000 - the dealer stands to make +/- $2000. That's 2k TOTAL , not profit. There just isn't room to give you (the one time buyer) a discount for showing up at the store willing to buy something.

Save a few dollars on the internet purchase and earn your discount by arranging your own delivery and install ( and don't complain like a recent poster here that the freight co. just brought the box in didn't help him get the fridge off the pallet and throw away the packing material) Figure out how to level that fridge by yourself because the bozo manuf. forgot a section of the install manual and don't even think about calling me when you can't figure out how to turn on this or turn off that. Don't ask me why your fancy German DW isn't cleaning your dishes after everyone told you how great it was, and don't even think about asking me for help if something breaks or doesn't work out of the box. You also won't get my help making sure your openings are wide enough to even fit what you are buying - just email Mr. Internet chanting " I saved 800 bucks, I saved 800 bucks"

People always assume that every dealer/reseller is making a killing off every sale.

Simply put, it's all about margin. Each dealer knows what margins they find acceptable and what margin they need to keep the lights on. Internet resellers are cheap because they are doing nothing to earn your business (except having a web page) and will generally not be able to help you post sale. Appliance stores cost more because they can offer more.

You have to decide if you want to take the risk of buying sight unseen, buying from a discount retailer or buying from someone that can offer more services. I've done all three plenty of times. Pros and cons to all of them.

-Stooxie

I would obviously strongly disagree with the statement below by Stooxie.

""""""""Internet resellers are cheap because they are doing nothing to earn your business (except having a web page) and will generally not be able to help you post sale. Appliance stores cost more because they can offer more.""""""""

Some Internet dealers may operate that way but not all, as the blanket statement might suggest. I know of many customers who received ZERO service from Local Appliance dealers and came to me for help which I provided for certain lines and will continue to do so. Further we have a little bit more than ""Just have a web page"".

We should also remember that ANY and ALL appliance dealers could have a website.

Thank you for all your opinions. The "free" warming drawer would be the equivalent of money saved after rebates, tax credits, and small bulk purchase discount, and have no relation to the tax bill.

BTW, I know of NO ONE who has ever paid taxes on items purchased out of state. Do you?

There was a post a number of months ago from someone posting for a "friend" who had been contacted by her state revenue department about out-of-state appliances purchases.

Also, quite a while ago before internet purchases, a friend of mine ordered furniture from North Carolina. Her state revenue department contacted her for the tax.

The odds are probably low that you'll get caught, but with the economy these days, states are looking for all the tax revenue they can get and they are getting help from shipping companies as well as retailers.

Trevor,

You're not an internet reseller, you're an appliance store! What are you talking about?! You can't even keep it straight in your own head any more! Generalities are just that, and a single counter example doesn't disprove them.

You're so clouded by your desperate need to move product that you've got an answer for everything.

Best of luck to you. With folks like you here it's impossible to get an objective opinion. I remember your Bluestar pages before CC came along. I remember how the numbers all changed when the CC came out, like broil temperature and water boil times. Your data is whatever you want it to be.

My team sells $100M worth of high end gear every year, I know a thing or two about markets and how to cut through the bull.

Adios.

-Stooxie

enmnm, based on my reading of the posts above, I would choose a few stores and contact them to let them know about your $13000 list. Local stores that you would like to help survive, thrive and prosper. One of your criteria is the after-sales service. There will be missing parts, dings, scratches, and problems. A physical store is always interested in saying something more satisfying than "there is nothing more I can do for you". That is because they have windows, which generally don't survive if they give that answer as a general rule. An internet company can easily give that answer, and even write it in an email too, although you might later copy it onto a grudge ranting thread. In building any business, some of what needs doing is "defense", and some is "offense". A physical store will do the defensive work, not just the offensive work. Your criteria are always lowest price all the time, or else you wouldn't be spending for the products you named.

Hth.

Stooxie - I think Trevor does a good deal of both.

antss - I don't disagree with you in principal, but the problem is that in my experience so many local B&M's rarely add value anymore. They blurt their uninformed spiel, sell product and then wash their hands of it. Unrelated because it wasn't an "appliance," but not long ago I had an issue with a purchase from Wms Sonoma and got no-where with a trip to the store where I purchased the item, but got instant satisfaction when I called the 800 number. Same thing with a grill from Weber. Go figure. An even less related example, two weeks ago I went to buy a pair of snowshoes. Saleswoman did her best to sell me a pair of women's snowshoes (rated for 150# and I'm over 2 bills) rather than order me a pair, so I went home and called an online company whose CSR walked me through a bunch of brands/models and then split the 2-day delivery charge with me because he couldn't discount the snowshoes themselves.

I'm all for supporting the local dealer and paying the sales tax I legitimately owe, but they've got to make it worth my while - not necessarily in the form of dollars.

enmnm - rebates and tax credits are waaaay different than a discount given by the local shop! Re; the taxes - sure I've heard of it and done it myself. Cars and boats purchased out of state require the taxes be paid to get them registered in most states same as if you bough one at the dealer down the street. Other large purchases are subject to the same reporting in a lot of states and Cali. is cracking down big time lately. With dwindling revenues I'm betting a lot more will follow.

stump - I hear you on the local service crap that we experience at some shops. In most towns there is more than one selling the brands enmnm mentioned so no reason to patronize the laggards.

wow stooxie - I thought I came off as abrasive.

Some "internet" sellers also have a real store that they sell product to locals at.

Basically - just ask "is this the best price you can do on this package" and see what kind of response you get.

My $0.02 here:

All generalizations about how much support or information you can get out of an "internet" vs a "local" store are false. I went to a highly regarded local store where the salesman was next to useless. We went to a local Sears where the experience was similar. At least in that store, the saleswoman appreciated learning from us about the appliances. We actually had to go to an out-of-state 'local store' in order to get a decent, knowledgeable salesperson. And I had a very informative conversation with someone from at least one internet retailer.

All generalizations about sales tax are false.
NY and NJ, for example, have made some deals with each other as neighboring states. There are stores in NJ that are big enough to have attracted the attention of NY. Those stores have signed agreements saying that they agree to collect NYS tax on any deliveries to NYS. Also, there are a few states that have *no* sales tax. And it's not clear that every state which charges sales tax has a "use tax" clause requiring tax to be paid on out-of-state deliveries.

Finally .. I agree it can never hurt to try and get a better deal. You can always ask any dealer... and the worst that they can do is say no. Then you can decide where you want to bring your business.

"All generalizations.....are false"

Steve - this is just another generalization and in and of itself, is absurd!

And while Montana and Oregon have no state sales tax many of their local jurisdictions levy - AND THAT"S FACT ! It's a safe bet you'll pay (tax) anywhere that has a store selling a Liebherr fridge!

Now, since I'm not a CPA in one of these states I cannot tell you if those local authorities have filing requirements.

So , in effect your 2 cents is practically worthless since OR and MT don't have huge population centers nor are they hotbeds for big hi-line appliance purchasers looking to weasel out of paying taxes. That leaves the other 96 % subject to paying!

I totally agree with you about being able to find bozo sales weasels at the local level. That's no different than the bell curve of competence for your local talent pool of doctors, lawyers, hairstylists, and dressmakers.

Golly, Steve, have a good Monday morning.

Some stores Do have the kind of Good People Who You Like to Deal With Because They Meet Your Most Basic Criteria. Local stores that you would like to help survive, thrive and prosper. I would contact them to let them know about your proposed purchases.

One of your criteria is the after-sales service. It is true that an internet-based purchase can also produce good after-sales service; nobody will deny it is possible. But, there are many situations where you have almost no hold on the selling party after you paid your money. Does this need to be spelled out more clearly than it is already?

HTH.

After sales service may or may not be a consideration. It's the manufacturer who is obligated to provide warranty service, not the seller. Now some sellers (local or internet) will help you get that service from the manufacturers but others (local as well as Internet) will say "not our problem" call the manufacturer. Going local doesn't guarantee you anything. On the other hand, some local "authorized" service places that also sell will tell you "if you didn't buy from us, we won't service it". I know manufacturers don't like that attitude.

Amongst my work colleagues, at least, statements like "all generalizations are false" are part of a well-known joke. We say "all generalizations are false... including this one." Since two people (at least) reacted negatively, I probably should have included both the punchline and a smiley for those who don't get my sometimes dry humor. Sorry if it seems like I was flipping anyone off.

I tried to show examples of sales tax being due and collected collected when one might think it would not, as well as the other way around .. so I was really only trying to make the point about generalizations being dangerous and often inaccurate. FWIW, I believe that MT and OR are not the only states with no sales tax... I think NH an DE (and AK) similarly have no sales tax. I don't know if local jurisdictions impose a tax or not, nor do I know anything about whether the jurisdictions in any of these 5 states impose a use tax on out-of-state purchases that are brought into the state. Obviously, a person living in these states have a different set of concerns than persons who live in other states.

It's also true that some states have (like NY) have what I think they call "safe harbor provisions" on their tax returns. With these, you can voluntarily pay the state essentially an "estimated" use tax based on your AGI. These may not cover everything -- in NY I think it only applies to purchases under $1k. YMMV, of course .. .and I'm not a lawyer, CPA, or employee of the Tax department.

The real point I was trying to make is that folks should 'never say never' or 'never say always' when it comes to these kinds of topics, since the laws vary dramatically from state to state.

Finally, re: local vs. "internet" purchases -- Weissman is correct that depending on the individual (and the manufacturer), after sales service may or may not be a consideration. The macroeconomic arguments for or against local vs long-distance purchases are interesting. The conclusion is not obvious (to me, anyhow). The impact on the local economy is more obvious. This should be an incentive for "local" vendors to provide well-trained sales folks and competitive pricing.

DE is a bit unique - consumers aren't directly taxed - it's the business' gross receipts that are taxed by the state. You can bank on businesses passing that on to the end user though.

I got hit with at least 5% in AK lat time I was there - don't know if it was state or local though!

My broad point is: just because you buy off of the internet, don't assume you do not OWE sales tax on an appliance purchase.

enmnm, another suggestion.

I found an internet ad for the vent hood that I wanted for $900, in-stock, free shipping, no tax. My local appliance showroom had the same hood for $1010 plus tax and delivery--about $1150. Normally the prices are fixed on this hood, but there are a few authorized internet dealers who post prices.

I wanted to buy locally, so I printed out the ad and took it to the local showroom. The appliance manager got on the phone with the manufacturer, who gave him a even lower price. So I was sold the hood for $830, which came out to $900 with my local sales tax added. I was upfront and even mentioned to the appliance salesman that I felt bad about asking him to price match, but he assured me that he was getting his full commission. He said he did this all the time and the manufacturers would approve lower prices to maintain local brick-and-mortar stores. He threw in free delivery for me, too. I paid my local sales tax, got the hood the next day, and feel comfortable having local support should the need arise. Now I just hope someone at the manufacturing plant doesn't get a pink slip...