Sticker shock-- appliance packages

13 years ago

Hi, this is my first post-- I have read a lot but by no means all of the traffic on the board. I am adding it as a new post since I mistakenly initially added it to someone elses's.

This question is about our trepidation in buying new appliance packages for our kitchen addition/remodel. As an example of our worries, we have had GE 24" double wall ovens and used them hard for 24 years. The element just died in the upper oven. We hope to find a 30" double with all the bells and whistles that will be as reliable as those old GE's. We are looking at Wolf, Miele, Kenmore, and KA. The Kenmore is the cheapest but well thought of by CR. The Miele seems to be well liked by everyone but is also $5900. We are completely gutting our kitchen and doubling it in size from 300 to 600 sq ft. We just got sticker shock at Ferguson's on the quotes for a (mainly) Miele kitchen ($30K) and a mainly Wolfe kitchen ($26K) In both cases we plan to use the 36" wolfe cooktop since it clearly has the features we want and great reliability statistics.

The Miele pkg includes built-in 30" refr and 18" freezer side by sides, the wolfe cooktop, miele 30" double ovens, miele warming drawer, miele combination fast bake (convection+micro+ "fastbake"), miele built-in coffeemaker, 18" and 30" miele diamante dishwashers, and 36" ventahood liner.

The wolf pkg includes the wolfe 36"cooktop, their 36" built-in, top-refr with bottom freezer, wolf 30" double ovens, wolf microwave drawer, marvel refrigerator drawers, wolf warming drawer,36" ventahood liner, the Miele dishwashers and miele coffeemaker mentioned above in the Miele pkg.

One option we are looking at is a 42" french-door, top-refr, built-in refr+bottom freezer by KA.It costs about the same as the wolf refr and is quite a bit bigger.

First: do these pkg prices seem right? Second, what are your thoughts about which option is better?

Thanks. This is a huge investment for us-- probably our "rest-of-our-lives" kitchen. [I just retired!] We are also looking at Crownpoint, Omega and Pacific cabinets-- any thoughts about them would also be appreciated.

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Comments (8)

jope2800
13 years ago
I replaced my double-ovens about a year ago with the Thermador-30" ovens and sure do like them! I paid extra for the warming drawer which is simply wonderful. It's like having a 3rd oven and keeps foods moist and warm up to an hour. For big parties this is a must. Whichever brand you buy, I highly recommend you get one with a warming drawer -- you won't regret it.
enmnm (6b)
13 years ago
If you think this is sticker shock, wait until you get the cabinet quote.

Appliances cost what they cost. You can google them and find the lowest listed price...and use that to help negotiate a package. Whatever you do, don't forget to account for taxes, installation, delivery, and the carting away of your old appliances.

FWIW, I wouldn't get all my appliances by the same brand, particularly if you have a budget in mind. I would allocate the most money towards the appliances that are most important to you. For example, perhaps you can even keep your dishwasher, at a standard 24".
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marcolo - you obviously have some pent up frustrations left over from your bluecollar childhood. You also have no clue about how the industry works either! A GC can be a project manager or not. Can be a sales man on not, can, and often is, both. He or SHE might have employees and might not. That $40 an hour to a sub doesn't just go into that plumbers pocket ( less uncle Sam's cut) like your "salary" does. (S)he gets to pay our uncle just like you but, many get the privilege of sending a lot of that money in ahead of time in quarterly estimated payments, not taken out of a paycheck every two weeks like most people on salary. You should try paying your tax bill in advance - you'll love it! Out of that $40/hr comes professional fees an licenses and overhead like a phone or two, and a vehicle that gets outasite gas mileage and some have offices believe it or not, and then there is workman's comp insurance so if he steps on a nail at YOUR house you are protected, and many even have something like obamcare too, and lets not forget one of the biggest - Liability Insurance - you want your slave.... I mean contractor to have that , right marcolo? I mean you don't want him accidently cutting a water pipe and flooding your house and then leave you with the bill simply saying "sorry maser, I dinnen mean ta , I guess ya can whip me." So, what do you suppose all that is worth? Would you like to pick up some of you're job's overhead like contractors do? You can easily give your employer back $$$ for use of the phone & pay ALL of your health care costs, and buy your own computer and pay for the internet out of your salary - sound good? While your at it why not round up and pay him for your desk/chair and pencils, pens and all the reams of paper you use? Another thing none of you math wizzes have taken into account in the scenario is that the bid @ $40/hr include some material, drywall, paint, cost $$$ and should be deducted BEFORE you start computing labor scenarios. So, now we are really talking about less than $40/hr or $80k/ year , which really isn't - see weismann's explanation. To all of you that think the "hidden conditions" is just a scam - grow up. If contractors included everything that might happen in your job's bid you'd soil your pants when you saw the estimate/contract. You'd also never do the job because it'd be too expensive. The vast majority of people that did decide to move forward would be overpaying especially when no asbestos laden corpse or flesh eating mold was found in your walls or it turns out you really didn't need an all new electrical system. You'd be obligated under the contract to pay for that stuff whether you needed it or not. -OR- Do you folks think the contractor is going to assume all the risk for what might be there AND only charge you if it actually comes up? Get a clue gang. - AND / OR _ You'd all then be complaining that remodeling prices are ridiculous (even worse than in this conversation) and the threads would be about "how can I lower/ afford my remodel" And- why isn't a plumber or carpenter with 20 years experience worth $80k? Is your broker that just yaks on the phone all day, tells you to buy COKE and sell DOW and buy as much Fannie Mae as you can - "it's going through the roof" AND who is WRONG more often than not, worth $150-$500k + bonuses a year and deserving of that Maserati? Or what about the Calif. prison guards that takes home $122k a year, or the actor on the silver screen that get $10 -$40 million for 6 months work? Oh, he's worth it , cause "he's dreamy". Even better is the one whose only talent is she's recognized all over the world often gets $1milion an appearance - can't even tell the difference between cocaine and bubble gum. That's certainly a trait more valued by our society than making sure you kitchen floor is level or that hot/cold water flows to your sink for 30 + years without a problem or the lights work and don't burn your house down - so now I'm probably the one who has no clue. Oh, what about that mechanic at your Ford or Honda dealer that is charging you $90/hr? he even gets to work in a climate controlled building. Sure stuff is expensive - and I'm not saying that the OP should accept those two bids, but this is a two way street. Just because you you only have or are willing to spend $24,635 doesn't mean you can get a new kitchen in YOUR house - especially the one you really really have been salivating about. BTW marcolo, what do you think is fair for the nail driver to earn a year. What would you really like to pay him? How about: 1.your auto mechanic 2.your broker/financial planner 3.your minister/rabbi/priest - they should prob. do it for nothing? 4.the TSA worker at the airport 5.your kid's teachers 6.your accountant 7.your Gen. Practice doctor
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friedajune
13 years ago
I agree with Enmnm about not getting a package. Also, you could save several hundred dollars on the Wolf MW drawer which is a re-badged Sharp. Just buy the Sharp. Regarding the fridge, I assume you meant Subzero when you said Wolf fridge, but whether to buy the Subzero fridge or not is a personal decision. If a fridge to you is just a box to keep things cold, then you will be happy with Kitchenaid and save several thousand. I have a KA fridge, and it has performed flawlessly. Having said that, I sometimes see Subzero or Miele fridges on this forum and pine for that kind of bling, sorta how I pine for a car out of my price range - I'd love to have it, but decided to spend that money elsewhere. So only you can decide on that one.

As to the wall ovens, it's a sad fact that the GE's you buy today won't be the workhorses of the 24-year-old GE ovens you have now. How much baking do you do? A few people on this forum and the Kitchens forum who bake breads, pizzas, cakes, etc. don't like their GE"s. Others who are not such serious bakers are very satisfied with their GE wall ovens. Many good reports here about the Fisher & Paykel wall ovens; there was a recent thread how the F&P's have a nice simple clean front with just a couple of knobs, rather than the overly-busy electronic panels on other wall ovens like the Miele and Wolf. Although you said you want lots of bells and whistles, keep in mind that's just more to break.

The Miele DW's are great - I recommend them a lot even though they are expensive. People here also love the Miele Speed Ovens - you should do a search on this forum about them. As to a warming drawer, I think you will find other brands just as good for less money than the Wolf or Miele warming drawer. The key to the warming drawer is where you locate it, not really so much the brand, as it is a simple machine. If you locate the warming drawer at the bottom of an oven stack, you will NOT use it, guaranteed. It will be a PITA to bend that low, and you'll avoid it; the dog will love it there though. A warming drawer should ideally be located just under the counter, next to the oven.

Regarding the Ventahood hood - there are differing opinions on the Ventahood. People either love it and think it's a breeze to clean, or they complain it's harder to clean than baffle filters. Look at it in the store carefully and decide for yourself. You mentioned "liner" so I assume you aren't looking for a hood to match your cooktop, just the liner. You will need 800-1000 cfms to handle the Wolf cooktop btu's. Whatever liner you choose, make sure your exhaust duct is a large enough diameter. Most require 8" or 10" diameter duct. Smaller duct than that, your exhaust will be less efficient and more noisy, regardless of the brand and how much money you spent on it. Other brands to look at are Prestige (prestige-america.com) and Independent (kitchenhood.com).
cj50
13 years ago
When we built our house 12 yrs ago we bought the same brands. We are now remodeling the kitchen and are replacing equipment with what we like. All manufacturers are good at some things and not so good at others. Miele makes fine appliances and are expensive. Capital and Bluestar make probably the best homeowner gas stoves and cook tops. You may want to look at the Capital Culinarian or Bluestar instead of the Wolf. Many believe Wolf is all show when compared to these two. Kitchen Aid makes good dishwashers. You may not know but they are owned by Whirlpool, which makes many of the Kenmore products. GE is no where near the appliance they once were. They had tried to sell the appliance division for more than 5 years and did not invest in any R & D. However, they recently decided to stay in the business put more money in R & D to compete. As the previous post stated, Thermador makes some good ovens. You may look at Electrolux ovens too.
We bought the Kitchen Aid dishwasher KUDE70CVSS, Samsung 3 door refrigerator from Lowes, Panasonic Microwave to replace the over the stove GE one, and have the Capital Culinarian CGSR366 and a 42" modern air hood coming in to finish the job.
Good luck
geo91324
13 years ago
We went (mostly) with one brand, Sub/Wolf, because we had such good experience with them in the past. But I'm sure that as long as they are design-wise compatible you could certainly mix brands.
1) Fridge: I'm curious why in the Miele package you consider the 30"/18" columns but you don't consider in the Sub package the 48" B series built-in. It is MUCH less expensive than the Miele combo. We have the B48 and I must admit I'm very impressed with both its silence and its interior ergonomics.
2) Cook top and ovens: we are very happy with our Wolf 48" and double ovens.
3) Warming Drawer: we also are pleased with our Wolf but I'm sure any reliable brand would work just as well.
4) Speed oven, microwave, coffee maker: if there's any place you really can save money. this is it. Consider whether you really want to spend $3,000 on a coffee maker (and remember it requires maintenance). We don't use the microwave that much so we hid an inexpensive one under the island. Sure, you have to open a cabinet door to use it, but it saved a lot of money and you don't see it.
5) Dishwasher: we bought 2 Miele Diamante Plus units and are very pleased.
6) Sticker Shock: I agree with Enmnm that you could very well spend far more on cabinets then on appliances. Especially if you are considering paneled (integrated) appliances, try to find a recommended custom cabinet maker (the one that actually cuts the wood). This is easier in suburban and rural areas, but if you find such a person, have him take you to a local kitchen he has done. A good cabinet maker will save you a lot of headaches and may well cost you less than going through a middleman (designer, kitchen store or box store).

Good luck!
ADK_Will
Original Author
13 years ago
Thank you all for the good advice! I will look into Bluestar cooktops and other brands for warming drawers. I too have a standard KA DW with a great stainless interior. It works like a charm and is very quiet. I am planning to give it to my daughter and her husband who just bought a nice home with a terrible DW. Both dealers I have spoken to say that KA still makes good DWs. They just said that Miele makes even better ones. Interestingly, neither had anything good to say about Jenn Air ovens and refrigeration even tho they sell them. They actually said that if I were tempted in that direction I would be better off with the highly rated Kenmore Elite and Pro double ovens(which they did not sell). Based on what I have read on this site, the new KA appliances are more problematic than the old ones. CJ50, I agree about the Samsung: we have a Samsung top refr/bottom freezer in our summer cottage back east in the Adirondacks and love it. Amazingly it survives 30 below winters in an unheated home and turns back on every spring for us. It's just not as sweet as that Miele we looked at. It is also 1/6th the price. Geo, I will ask about the SxS 48" SZ. We didn't like SxS's until we saw the Miele in the showroom and jsut forgot to return to the Wolf section-- good catch, thanks! Although we are avid cooks (our ovens get used nearly daily), we find benefit in a microwave as well. We are getting a little arthritic to welcome bending over to get into a std microwave in a base cabinet. We refuse to put one on a counter. I guess an upper cab could be an option.

On the custom cabinet advice, I largely agree: our current cabinets are all custom and after 24 years look nearly new. My wife has fallen in love with Crownpoint; so before going locally, we'll at least get a quote from them. The trouble with locals is that you are buying a pig in a poke unless they have a long track record. Our previous cabinet maker was fabulous and reasonable; however, he retired and sold the shop to a gorilla-- well maybe that is unkind (to the gorilla). Also, around here with the recession, there are absolute horror stories about previously reputable shops going under and taking people's money and cabinet order with them. Maybe I am getting too old for this. ;-)

Do any of you have experience with the Miele coffeemaker? At $3K it would be our total splurge if we buy it. I am worried however: we have more than one good friend who bought similarly priced Jura Capresso machines that make absolutely wonderful coffee-- unfortunately their steam systems die regularly within 1--3 years. Williams-Sonoma used to honor a lifetime warranty on those; then they quit doing so;and now I do not think they carry them at all. I would hate to think we could get into a similar situation with a Miele.
segesta
13 years ago
Nothing against those who have spent so much, but $3K for an espresso maker is nuts, even if it's totally cool like the Miele. Just get a Rancilio Silvia or a Gaggia and spend the savings on those nice cabinets...
athensmomof3
12 years ago
I would look into the Electrolux ovens. They are very highly rated and highly recommended by our local appliance store (who also sells Wolf/Jennair, etc.). I have essentially settled on those as I thought this was somewhere that I could cut some and still end up with something vastly superior to what I have. I will likely get the speed oven, a regular oven and a warming drawer from them (mainly because I want them to match). I would read some reviews of these - they are much less expensive for sure.

Also, as far as the dishwasher goes, are you going to panel it? If not, I think the Kitchenaid is a great choice and it has heated dry which I happen to like and am worried about giving up. If you want integrated, than you have to go with one of the Euro brands like Miele, Bosch, Asko, etc.

We thought at first about getting the all fridge version of the SZ you looked at and seperate freezer drawers but WOW sticker shock. We have a 35k appliance budget but I really think this is somewhere I can save and get what I want - I would like to keep it below 30k for sure.

Sticker shock-- appliance packages

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jope2800

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