Their ovens temperature average. Cycle on and off/up and down. I found getting precise heat extremely difficult. The model I had also vented directly under the electronic controls.

Glad to hear the service has improved.

Yeah, Rococogurl, the oven design is screwy. The knobs are the attraction for someone with sight problems. These Starship Enterprise control panels are not at all useful for people with vision issues.

It was so sad. My relative asked me if she couldn't just get a plain old American oven and I had to tell her that there aren't any. It took awhile to make her understand how rare they are. Especially since she can't fit 30".

This is my second experience with Viking. I think they're really trying to be better. The customer service has been awesome!! Once they figure out how to engineer appliances that work the way the consumer wants (e.g., oven control, dry dishes), they'll regain their status as a top brand.

Hi Plllog,

Thanks for alerting me to this issue (which would have been a very big issue indeed had I bought the knobbed Viking I've been interested in without knowing.) Do you know whether this is the case with all the Vikings with knobs? The one I've been looking at is the 30" VEDO 5302, Professional Premiere double wall ovens....

Thanks for the thread!

It's not only Viking. According to specifics posted by Segbrown, received in a course put on by a Wolf distributor, the Bake option in the Wolf ovens uses 90% bake (concealed bottom) element and 10% broil element. I've never found it to be a problem and think it helps with nice top browning without overcooking the bottoms, but admit I have no experience with anything that requires cold oven starts.

Viking was lovely to me when my fridge was recalled and the door had to be replaced. Service is a problem for them in our area so they sent one of their techs from another territory. They fixed the door, replaced the cooktop (again) and the tech also fixed the 2nd vent hood so it actually worked. I was dealing with the mother ship and they really could not have been better about making good on things well beyond warranty due to the long sad story of my problems with every appliance for five years in a house where we barely spent 3 months a year.

My Miele oven (which replaced the Vike) starts my favorite cycle -- autoroast - cold. It's equivalent to starting at a higher temp and turning the oven down. Does my roast chicken to perfection.

The oven also has combi settings a la European convection where the broiler element works with the bottom and convection in various ways. That does take a learning curve which can be an obstacle for an inexperienced cook.

I love the oven but it's not self-cleaning and so evidently not subject to a series of negative issues which have arisen repeatedly in the year or so and which have been the subject of multiple threads.

In your shoes, I'd head for a Wolf showroom where they have the live ovens and sit in on the demos.

Burntfingers, I don't know for sure, but I'd assume it's true of all the Viking ovens. Do e-mail them with any questions you have.

Rococogurl, it's not just the inexperienced cooks who have problems with these weird new ovens. It's also the ones who've been cooking their whole lives and don't want to have to relearn how to cook in their twilight years. Lots of little things become so much harder. Harder to see, harder to lift pots, harder to stand for long periods, etc. Why should someone have to become a slave to a machine that doesn't act like a normal oven? Why should she have to abandon all the recipes that she knows in her bones because they can't be made in these weird new ovens? Why should she have to rewrite them? It makes me mad...

LOL, Plllog - I've been reading the users manuals for the ovens "in the running" and to a one they talk about how "some cookbooks" have recipes developed "for older ovens" -- as though (1) we all have to start completely over learning how to cook, (2) only recipes in new cookbooks will work in these new ovens, and (3) old recipes are now obsolete. Do they really think the people buying these high-end appliances are tied to cookbooks? (Yeah, I know, there are those who buy "show kitchens" and never boil water, but surely they aren't the majority.....!)

Is it any wonder that wood burning ovens are the latest and greatest high end luxury appliance? Not only do they work really well, it's easy to figure out how hot they are and how hot they're going to be by actually lighting and tending a fire. Of course, that would be for the OLD cookbook people. :D

Perhaps I'm weird but I don't mind the differences. I did some product development and testing years ago for appliance companies so I had a small countertop convection oven in the early 80s. I knew to put things right on the rack and how convection worked and think that made the combi heats easier for me.

Thing is, some manufacturers of these appliances cannotfully explain how to use them. I find a real disconnect and some of the explanations in the user manual make absolutely no sense to someone who's trained let alone someone who's trying to learn. "Shallow braising" is one of the beauts. That's may be why you get the mumbo jumbo when you ask a question -- they have no idea how to apply the oven modes from the standpoint of technique.

I know my own recipes really well so I haven't had any issues with adapting. Worst is remembering what I did. LOL.

Of course, I don't have a Turbochef which is another whole approach that would take a huge adjustment. When I was looking at ovens each brand had its own bells and whistles but basically, it was the same old thing just with or without convection and with or without the top element on. Not really new though certainly more expensive.

Not having Rococogurl's professional experience, I am having some learning curve learning how to effectively use the convection in my new Gaggenau oven--but I can turn it off!!! I can (and have) turn the fast pre-heating off! I can choose bottom heat, top heat, various combinations of the two, or broil. All with or without fan. I get to control it. Me.

I have some things I make that really don't like anything but good old fashioned bottom heat, and come out great when I use it. Other things are great with the convection. Thank goodness I'm not stuck with one of these combo modes when I don't want it, however. I am willing and able to learn new things, but still want to be able to do the old ones.

What of my elderly relatives, however? How can we get a top opening, 27" oven, with simple knobs to operate and without all these crazy combination cooking modes that won't let them cook the way they want to?

That's really all I ask. To be able to turn off the gizmos. And heat evenly, hold temperature, do a good job. Why can't an oven just be an oven?

pllog - I'm with you. My Dacor works like the Gaggenau. I can choose the method I want - but it took a while to figure it all out and when I don't want to experiment with 'surround convection roast' I can still just turn my oven to bake.

Exactly plllog.

I'm confused. Why can't someone just use Bake? I may be totally naive and not discerning enough --and not baking with enough variety to relate to the conversation, but I don't notice any difference between using the Wolf Bake that apparently uses a little of the top element to do what they've considered is the best job, and using my old GE Profile that wasn't convection. I thought maybe it's part of the compensation for having the bottom element buried?

I have also never found much of a learning curve with convection, other than to not use it for certain things. I don't adjust temps, and am happy to have things cook a little quicker when they do. Those old ovens weren't all that perfect or precise, so checking to make sure things didn't under or over bake was routine. There aren't ovens out there, are there, for which you can't turn off the convection?

I'm with you on the knobs, of course, and do wish there was a quality oven available without all the bells and whistles and in the hundreds, not thousands, of dollars. I would've gladly done that this last time. But less expensive just meant cheaper. It's like the cars that have GPS and electronic everything, but you can't trust to get you from Point A to Point B without parts falling off.

Actually, the old Chambers that needs replacing was pretty perfect.

Rhome, you definitely do enough baking to relate. I appreciate your addition that the Wolf's bake using the top element works fine for you. That's the feature on the Viking that made her nix it altogether. Maybe she'll reconsider.

We've tried to get the Chambers reconditioned but there's some rare electrical part that needs to be replaced. What has been so frustrating is that these people can afford anything they want. They just don't want to remodel, so that means a 27" top opening. And without a control panel (i.e., with knobs) so that they can actually operate it.

I've had my Viking oven for about 5 years now. At first I burned all sorts of things. I've used a large assortment of cheap and old ovens over the past 50 years that I've been baking and this was a new experience. They did repair it early on and things got better.

I experimented and found that the only setting I could use reliably was "tru convection" with pans placed n the lower racks.

The newest issue for me is that the numbers are disappearing from around the dials and soon I won't know what temps I'm setting. The same issue happened with my cooktop and I'm on my third unit. I wish they would just add new decals but the entire unit needs to be replaced. Each comes with labor charges.

Oy. Thanks! Maybe reconsidering isn't a good idea. Someone said that they're finally engraving the settings, but still....

I'm glad to hear others are finding it a challenge to figure out how to use the new ovens. Just started using a Miele Chef speed oven -- this is supposed to be the simple one -- but I don't really know which mode to use when.