plumber issue - is this fair?

16 years ago

I'm going to try to keep a long story short but our plumber has been a nightmare. He has already done a lot of work for my dad and a bunch of work in my house and in general has been very conscientious, reasonably priced and good at what he does, even if he has a few personality quirks that I personally have never had much of a problem dealing with.

So it was a no-brainer to use him for our bathroom renovation. We trusted him, he does good work, his prices are reasonable, all sounds good. Well it's turned into somewhat of a nightmare getting him to do his job. We gutted our bathroom the day after thanksgiving and we are still sitting with a mostly gutted bathroom due to having to ride his butt constantly to get him over here. Numerous mistakes were made and while he "made good" on all of them without complaint (except that it took so long to get him back every time) it has delayed the project considerably. Things like being off by 2" on the shower drain placement (he has detailed dimensioned drawings to work from) that wasn't noticed until the GC tried to install the shower pan and it didn't fit between the drain and the supply - stuff like that.

A typical week in getting him to show up on a monday starts the previous monday with him saying he'll be there tuesday morning at 9, a phone call from him at 11 saying he'll be there at noon, another phone call saying he'll be there at 3 at the very latest, then another phone call saying he'll be there at 5, finally 7 at the latest with us telling him to just come the next day. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Anyway I am beyond fed up at this point. We called another plumber in to take a look at an issue discovered by our boiler guy (we are also doing a boiler replacement, zoning our whole house and in the process the boiler guy removed our old leaking cast iron radiator and ran a new line for a new combo radiator/towel warmer) and were very impressed by this guy. He comes when he says he will, his prices are also reasonable and he comes highly recommended by the local building inspector (who is a friend of ours).

Anyway this other plumber said everything old plumber did was fine except that for the new sink he used a 1 1/4" drain instead of the 1 1/2" drain required by code. Why, I don't know, but obviously it will have to be changed out. Old plumber is so flaky that it would probably take another week at a minimum to get him out here to fix it and I'm pretty much over the whole riding his butt to get him to do his job thing.

I want to just have new plumber fix it (which will probably involve the gc having to build a new knee wall to run this drain line through since it's tough to enlarge the holes that way) and basically proceed with new plumber. Chances are pretty good, but not 100%, that unless I call old plumber 100x a day we won't ever even hear from him again.

Sorry that's so long but I wanted there to be enough background. So here is my question. We've already paid old plumber 50% of the total job cost before he started the rough in. The toilet waste stayed in the same place but supply had to be moved to accommodate a fully skirted toto (although he did change out the waste line for the toilet, it just stayed in the same place). He moved the drain and supply slightly for the old sink (about 12" - still not where it was supposed to be but according to him "close enough - as long as it is somewhere under the vanity cabinet it's fine" - is that true?), roughed in supply and drain for a new sink (drain has to be redone), moved shower drain about a foot and supply about 3', roughed in a pretty complicated shower with thermostatic valve, two volume control valves, fixed and handheld shower head and moved clawfoot tub drain and supply about 3'.

So the question is, is it fair for me to cut my losses at this point and feel like we are all "even" for the work he's done? Given the price of copper and the length of some of the supply runs (particularly the new sink) and the number of fittings required to do the shower, my sense is that the more expensive part of the job is the rough in work and the installation of fixtures is a piece of cake relative to the rest - ie if I were to break it down, the rough in would be MORE than 50% of the job. I just want to be fair but given the fact that he has taken 6 weeks to do what has amounted to a 3-4 day job as far as I can tell if I add up the bits and pieces of time he's been here, and I justified in calling it even here? I am really not looking to screw anyone out of work they've already done but I'm already having to pay more to have at least one of his mistakes fixed (everything else seems fine, most of it has been inspected already too).

Thanks.

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Comments (6)

formula1
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
If there is a written contract with the old plumber, you may be liable for the full cost of the plumbing job whether or not he actually does the work; check the fine print.

If there is no written contract, dump the flake pronto and get new guy on the job. It's obvious the old guy is busy making more money somewhere else.

Holes in studs can be enlarged fairly easily. Tacking a piece of plywood over the old hole and boring a new hole through from the plywood side will pilot the larger bit and allow the hole to be enlarged. Then throw the piece of plywood away.
kgwlisa
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
No, no written contract. As far as I'm concerned he's dumped, it's just a question of whether he's been adequately paid for what he's done so far. I may never hear from him again so maybe I am worrying for nothing but I don't want to have it hanging out there if the right thing to do is to pay him a bit more even if he's dragged this out for 6 weeks and my time in keeping on his butt and catching his mistakes is worth something too.

Thanks for the tip on enlarging the stud holes! I will pass that on.
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Dandylandy, I'm so sorry to hear about this mess. You unfortunately do need to talk to a lawyer now. That doesn't necessarily mean you need to file a lawsuit--sometimes a stern letter or three from a lawyer is all it takes. Also, depending on the value of this (what's the total cost of the cabinets?) you might find yourself in small claims court or in mandatory arbitration, which is a lot easier and cheaper than a full-on lawsuit. Where I live any dispute worth $25,000 or less goes into arbitration, which just means you and the contractor show up (with or without your lawyers, but obviously I'm going to recommend WITH, absolutely) and say your piece to a group of three local lawyers who volunteer as mediators, and that group of three lawyers decides how to resolve it. It's much cheaper and easier than an actual lawsuit. If you're in NY, perhaps the cap is higher than $25k. Anyway, what I'm saying is that you may not be looking at a lawsuit at all; that's not the only way the legal system has for resolving disputes like this. So, put plywood on your counters or some other temporary fix, DO NOT pay the guy another dime, talk to a few local lawyers who specialize in real estate or construction law (ask friends and your architect for recommendations) and pick the lawyer who seems best to you. The first step will probably be for him or her to write a mean letter to the contractor, and then you go from there. Oh, about this: **"Some of the things that really bother me could have been avoided with better communication - e.g. if they couldn't go to the ceiling with the cabinets b/c my ceiling isn't totally level (or something, I am just speculating), and they warned me about it, that would have been a lot better than telling me "Yes" and then not delivering."** I don't even see how that would be possible; if your ceiling's not totally level, then the cabinets would stop somewhere below the ceiling and it would be up to you to decide whether to build up the ceiling a little bit or put some moulding on to hide the gap. In other words I can't think of a legitimate reason that your ceiling would prevent you from having ceiling-height cabinets. I just mention this to cut through any BS you may have heard from the cabinet guy. Anyway, gather together everything you have in writing (including any drawings or mock-ups) and write down everything you remember saying to or hearing from the contractor. Have your architect forward you any emails she sent to or received from the contractor. Also go through your voicemail and see if he left you any voicemails that could be relevant. Then try and write up in one or two pages exactly what you understood he was supposed to build for you, in every detail (dimensions, materials, etc.), and then what he actually did build, and what problems that caused or will cause (e.g. plumbing messed up, plates won't fit, layout changed so cost increased). Also note any scheduling screwups that occurred. Go over it with your architect and your hubby (if any) in case they remember things you don't. Then send this write-up to the lawyer, along with a copy of your contract with the cabinet guy and any other really critical documents like emails where the contractor committed to something that wasn't clear in the original contract or where he said X but it later turned out he did Y. It will take less time (and thus cost you less money) for the lawyer to read this than for the lawyer to "interview" you to figure out what happened. Best of luck.
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bill_vincent
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
If this were someone who'd been recommended by a friend, or something like that, I'd be with formula one. But from the sounds of it, both you and your family have a history with this guy, and up to this point, it's all been GOOD history. Now, granted, whatever it is, isn't YOUR problem, but you might talk to him and find out what's up. Good chance there's something major in his life distracting him, if his work is usually as good as you say it is. Or it could be that he's busier than hell, and bit off more than he could chew. It might be something the both of you can work around, or it might be time to let him work out his problems and go with someone else this time. One way or another, if you talk to him, you won't burn bridges that have been built with a good craftsman.
emilynewhome
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Bill's advice makes good sense! See what your guy has to say before you do anything you'll later regret.
funnycide
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
If he is so busy that he can't get to your house maybe he will be happy to not have to finish your job. If you present it positively for him that you see that he is too busy and you found a replacement plumber that you are happy with, then you are basically letting him off the hook. Just say that the amount paid already should cover his expenses and let him respond. Cut the line now so he doesn't come back in 4 weeks expecting to finish the job.
kgwlisa
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I don't think I'll regret cutting him loose. There are a lot of other issues that I didn't really want to go into but suffice it to say that I don't trust him much anymore. I'm pissed as hell that he did a few things that are not to code and he knows better (or knows better when he is paying attention). He also told me something was "just fine" when it's not (been confirmed by the building inspector, the boiler guy and the new plumber) which could have cost us big $$ down the road and relatively little $$ to fix now. He's been giving us his sob stories about why he can't make it on time for the last month so I know some of what's going on but for the most part I'm not interested. My boss would fire me if I pulled the same crap.

I guess my point was more that we've paid him for half the job, he's done most of the roughin but some of it needs to be redone because it is not to code. I'm not inclined to spend any more hours chasing him down to make it right and I'm inclined to think that I've paid him enough money for the work that he's done so far. I just wanted to know if I was being fair in thinking that, but the more I think about it, the more I think it is. My dad has NOT been happy with his work lately either (taking short cuts, saying things are "just fine" and then they break a few months later). My dad has taken VERY good care of him over the last years (always pays him above and beyond what is quoted with a rather large tip at the end) and he's kind of annoyed that he's jerking us around on our job after how good my dad has been to him.

The new plumber was over today and he is smart, courteous, comes on time, very very neat and very thorough. Also pretty reasonably priced and highly recommended by people in the community I trust. I've been a nervous wreck because I don't trust the old plumber (we did this whole thing because of a leak in the ceiling below) and I feel a huge sense of relief going with the new one. As my dad says, business is business and I don't really care what is going on in his life, I don't have the money or time to subsidize the drama in his life (it's nothing like "my wife has cancer" but rather stupid crap that I'd rather not know about).

Anyway thanks for the advice. My contractor was already planning on the plywood trick to enlarge the holes, I don't know how that became such a big deal - I think maybe DH decided it was a big deal (he is terribly unhandy - the last big thing he did was put his foot through the floor below when we were open to the joists) but the pros have said not to worry about it.

We gutted the bathroom starting after thanksgiving. It is now nearly 7 weeks later and about 5 weeks of that is due to the plumber. It's too much and no one who is worth working with does that to his clients. If I don't call him, he won't call me and he won't be showing up in 4 weeks expecting to finish. If he does, I hope to tell him it's already done. I'm sure he will be insulted but I don't really care. If he didn't want to be insulted he should have done his job in the first place.

plumber issue - is this fair?

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plumber issue - is this fair?

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formula1

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