19th century Embroidered Irish Pictyre/Banner

14 years ago

Hi

Is this worth anything? If so, how would I best go about selling it?

This embroidered picture/banner has been in my family since the mid-late 1800Âs when my great-great grandfather apparently rescued it from a bonfire whilst working as farm bailiff for Alfred Bean formally of Danson House Bexleyheath.

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The item was re-framed at some stage by a relative but I have been told the original frame is under the new one.

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Mark.

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Comments (13)

lindac
14 years ago
Of course it's worth something....how much depends on how much someone wants it.
I can't see the picture well enough to determine if the embroidery is hand or machine done not what the fabric is or if it's applique or all needle work.
If you really have no interest at all in keeping it in the family...I would seek out an auction house and consign it there....or perhaps try eBay...there is a very active eBay UK activity.
If you might want to keep it, I would take it apart and see what's inside the frame...if it's nothing of interest, have it put back again.
It must have been important to someone as they went to no small expense framing it.
Linda C
currymonster
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks for your input Linda.
I would be happy to email you some higher definition pictures if that would help.
I have not been able to find anything similar anywhere and would love to find out more about the item.
Money is tight for us right now, which is why we may sell this item amongst others. However, if I was to find out that it was worth less than, letÂs say, Â£150 then we would more than likely want to keep it.

Thanks again:-)

Mark
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lindac
14 years ago
Email me the pictures....frankly I doubt that it would be worth more than 150 pounds.....but I don't "think in pounds....that's about $250? US? Right?
May be more....email me pictures and I may post them...if that's OK?
calliope
14 years ago
Take it to a local antique store and discuss selling on a consign. They'll get the top dollar from it and have a good idea if it's of local interest and that would perhaps increase it's value to somebody. If they know you aren't selling it to them directly, they'd be likely to tell you if they'd expect to get more than your lowest acceptable price.
currymonster
Original Author
14 years ago
Hi Calliope.
Thanks for the advice.

ItÂs looking likely that I will get a specialist involved at some stage. Someone on another forum has suggested "Whytes of Dublin" so I will email them, but I live in Andover England so may look to engage the services of someone closer to home.
Having seen some higher definition photo's Lindac has advised that it may be worth more than first estimate. I have my fingers crossed :-)

Regards.
Mark.
lindac
14 years ago
....all that looks to be applique in the first pictures is satin stitch and the texture made by overstitching that.
The image below makes me think that people are willing to pay lots for such things.
Linda C

Here is a link that might be useful: USA emblem
harebelle
14 years ago
The interesting thing is that the motto is a bastardisation of the Irish language, so it's clearly an English piece. It's a handsome work that's incorporated Irish symbols from the English perspective. You may wish to discuss it with a textile specialist at Woolly & Wallis in Salisbury, which I believe is near to you. Having some provenance along with a good story is very nice. If you could learn about who wrought the piece it would be helpful in learning how its composition came about.

The red hand sinister intrigues me most of any of the mottos depicted in this. It's been stated to be a representation of Ulster, of Scotland, of a murder, of a race; all derived of popular novels in early Victorian England. There may be a motto of a red hand sinister but I really don't know without researching.
currymonster
Original Author
14 years ago
Hi Folks.
Something new has come to light:
A chap from another forum, who is also showing a lot of interest in the piece, has found this: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6838232

The design, if not quality of workmanship, is virtually identical in both pieces. I wonder if one of them is the original or more likely, done from an original that must be out there somewhere.

An elderly aunt has just been in touch to say that she believes William Mason (great-great-great granddad) may have acquired the piece earlier from the Johnston family who were at Danson before Alfred Bean. I have found this picture of the family:

I have been able to find out a fair amount about the history of Danson House through this link:
http://www.bexleyheritagetrust.org.uk/dansonhouse/

Linda.
I will not be to disappointed if the piece does not fetch as much as the American Emblem seen through your link, but would be nice though:-)

Barebell.
Definatley found what you had to say very interesting.
I will certainly check out the Salisbury Company you mention.

Thanks again for your input Guys

Mark.
User
14 years ago
Embroideries of that sort were popular for military regiments (a parade banner) or social, church or fraternal groups.

The trick is finding out which group.
lindac
14 years ago
These pieces were never intended to be a parade banner....they are needle art and intended to be framed and hung on a wall.
currymonster
Original Author
14 years ago
Hi Folks.
I have found a few more similar pieces to the one mentioned in my last post. (Scroll through the pages on the link below to see) There must be an original flag/banner/painting/picture from which they were all copied. I wonder where that is?

Have emailed WhyteÂs of Dublin and Woolly & Wallis of Salisbury.
IÂm waiting for them both to get back to me.
Regards
Mark.

Here is a link that might be useful: similar pieces
User
14 years ago
Regimental banners are elaborate embroidered things, carried on parades and hung on walls.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/flags/army-banner-100b.jpg

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/flags/4div-banner.jpg

***********
Given that there are several examples of the same design in various levels of craftsmanship from the 1800s, there must be a flag, crest, seal, or other source design.

Banners of army regiments, church groups or rebellious Irishmen would be my first place to start looking.

************

"God Save Ireland" is a bit from a popular song from the Cromwellian wars of the 1700s ...
http://oneofthebhoys09.tripod.com/rsab1/id45.html

Translated into English by this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Augustine_Sheehan
currymonster
Original Author
14 years ago
Hi lazygardens.
Thanks for your input. Wikipedia site is proving very useful.

Found this, which explains the symbols seen in the central part of the picture represent the four provinces of Ireland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Provinces
*************
This also (scroll down to see a similar picture with a useful description:
http://www.adams.ie/BidCat/SearchResults.asp?category=&keywords=embroidered&status=A
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All guesswork here, maybe the crown above these symbols represent the British monarchy.
The standard may have been used by the Irish Patriot Party who advocated Irish self government within the British Empire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Patriot_Party.

Fun thisÂÂº

19th century Embroidered Irish Pictyre/Banner

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19th century Embroidered Irish Pictyre/Banner

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