Good lord! You need to slow down. What on God's green earth are you on about?

I hear you Mac but I have to say that you are setting yourself up for disappointment in some ways and only a couple of simple changes could improve your experience a great deal. Decent containers, decent soil-less seed starting mix, quality seeds, and a fluorescent shop light will improve your experience 100%. ;)

Egg cartons are a waste of time for several reasons. If you don't want to buy a seed starting tray than any type of small cup container like foam coffee cups or yogurt containers with holes punched in the bottom, filled 1/2 way with a good quality wet seed starting mix, and then topped with plastic wrap and kept very warm with a source of bottom heat until germination will be a big improvement. Drop 2-3 seeds in each and cover very lightly with more soil-less mix then the plastic.

Starting with fresh quality seed boosts germination 10 fold - store bought hybrids were picked green and artificially ripened so seeds are immature and what you will likely get from them usually isn't worth the effort. Once germinated and transplanted deeply to individual cup containers and given 12-16 hours of fluorescent light or at least exceptional good sun exposure is needed.

There are lots of discussions here as well as a great FAQ on how to grow tomatoes from seed that you may want to review. ;)

Dave

I want to do this as cheap as I can
If I spend all the extra money on all the extra's
why not just buy them at the store in the first place...

Less caffeine might help too. :)

My first responce was to tell you that you might be happier if you just bought your tomato at the store for a dollar a piece. then I calmed down ..we will be glad to help you all we can. I know, it can be frustrating as heck some times.
What Dave says and also from me --never dirt. I have good luck with those little peat moss pellets they sell. Cover with plastic to keep wet but never put in the sun to sprout. Temp under that plastic could get so hot as to cook them. After they come up then sun is OK.
Just some very little thing could be killing your attemps.
It is such a nice feeling when you pick a tomato that you have raised from a baby.
Kenny

I want to do this as cheap as I can
If I spend all the extra money on all the extra's
why not just buy them at the store in the first place...

For one thing the only purchase required is a small bag of a decent soil-less mix - say $3 tops at Walmart - and then a Dollar Store pack of tomato seeds. That's it if you can provide the light needed.

As to why? Because there is no comparison whatsoever between the selection of varieties or the quality of transplant that you can grow yourself vs. what you can buy as transplants. Not to mention the $$$ saved if we need 20 or 40 or 80+ plants for our garden. That is why so many of us grow thousands of our own transplants from seed each year. ;)

But if you only need a couple of plants and variety isn't important to you, then by all means buy local transplants and forget trying to do it yourself and only getting frustrated. The results you'll get with the approach you describe aren't worth the time or effort - even when done at the proper time of the season.

Dave

But that is the half the fun of it trying to grow from seed... I know if all fails at starting seeds I can get a six pack at walmart ,,,

and by the way nothing I start now is going to make it though winter,, it is only experimentation at this point

Sorry Bob but "half the fun of growing from seed" is actually growing something. ;) The other half is all the money saved over buying transplants and having better quality is the gravy. ;)

Dave

Hey cdbob2000. I hear you. There have been times I couldn't put much $$ into growing things and still found ways to make it work. When I do have the $$ it is still fun to try low/no cost ways and weird experiments.

If you don't want to buy seed starting soiless mix you can try some of the methods in the following link. I'd go with the microwave methods myself. The main idea is that your soil needs to be sterilized (sanitized, actually). You could try it with the stuff from the planters. The part about smell is important. You will want to turn on a vent fan or open some windows. My dad started LOTS of seeds for years in sandy garden soil, but he always cooked it first. He would have liked the faster microwave methods, I bet. Me, well, now I usually buy a mix cause I start lots of stuff and it works great without the smell.

Also, tomatoes like it warm when they are germinating. Put your seed trays in a warm area of your home and they will come up much quicker. Sometimes the top of a refrigerator or TV has a warm spot. Or maybe your kitchen is generally warmer than other rooms. Just don't overdo it, no higher than 85F.

Go easy on the watering and make sure you have drain holes in the bottom and lower sides of your container. I use a spray bottle to water the seeds until the soil is damp like a wrung out sponge (not a waterlogged soggy sponge). Then I cover the container with plastic that is a few inches above the soil and leave it until I see a few sprouts...usually 5-10 days. Then the plastic comes off and it gets moved into the sunniest window or within an inch of a flourescent light. If things are too wet the seedlings are more likely to "damp" off...just means some fungal disease got them and they fall over and die. Cooking the soil will help prevent this but overwatering could still do the tomatoes in. Of course you don't want to let things get totally dry either...but it seems most people overdo rather than underdo the water bit.

Planting in a Wendy's salad container works for me. Punch holes in the bottom and lower sides, add sterile soil and plant seeds 1/4 inch deep. Lightly water and pop on the clear cover. Voila! Instant greenhouse. Lots of take out containers with clear covers work equally well. Just transplant the seedlings when they get their first set of true leaves. (The first leaves aren't considered "true" but rather "seed" leaves.)

I can speak from experience and tell you that Wendy's salad tomato seed grew well for me. However, you can watch for cheap seeds at Dollar General, Walgreens, Family Dollar, Walmart, ect. if you want. Last year they were $.25 and less much of the time around here. The ones I purchased all germinated and grew well.

Eventually, you will need to fertilize your tomatoes. Check the compost forum. You might like their idea of using dilute urine as a ferlizer...or you may be horrified by it...but it is free :)

Things may go wrong but when they do I try to figure out why and chalk it up as a learning experience. Before long you have learned enough and most everything you want to grow works. BUT...in spite of all we do, it seems there are always things that come up and baffle us. Keeps it interesting. (sounds better than frustrating, doesn't it?)

(1) I'm not sure if you're sharing past or present observations, but if present, it's too late to start tomato seeds here, unless you maybe have a heated greenhouse. But on the re-read, I take it you are practicing sowing right now, if so, erm, never mind. :)

(2) Using potting mix or soil from a container you've already planted in is probably not a good idea. Do yourself a favor, and next time you try to start seeds, use pro-mix, jiffy mix, metro mix, etc. In other words, usa a soil-less (peat based) mix that has not been used for something else before.

(3) keep your sowing mix evenly/lightly moist (but not overwet) until you see some germination.

Hope this helps...

I hope i didn't help give the impression that egg cartons are good for growing tomatoes...I only use them because I start 25 or so different varieties, and the cartons are nice for keeping them separated/organized until i transplant them, plus the lids help keep the humiidity up.

All kinds of good advice: Proper timing, soilless mix, LIGHT, warmth, covering the container to up the humidity just until they sprout, transplanting promptly, LIGHT....and use that FAQ!!

A couple of years ago, I brought seeds on vacation to Mexico, with the intention of just having something to mess with for the extended time we were spending there. All I had was local used soil, most of which I scraped out of large pots that already had tropical plants growing in them.

To start the seeds, I wetted down, then wrung out a paper towel, and folded it to fit in a plastic sandwich bag. I put the seeds between the layers and checked the seeds daily. When they showed signs of sprouting (3-5 days) I transferred them into styrofoam coffee cups with the same crappy soil that I was using. They were put outside in fresh air to complete sprouting and had immediate sun and just enough water to keep the soil damp, not soggy. I had no trouble with damping off. Maybe I was lucky, but I think the fresh air and sun provided ideal conditions that a volunteer seed in the garden would experience. I would expect that using the same kind of soil in my basement seed starting area up north would have had poorer results.

Five different varieties, just before transplanting into individual cups. Make sure you punch holes for drainage.

As you can see the crappy soil is a fine silty clay type that cracks as it dries, less than ideal. I started 5 seeds of each variety, and got from 3 to 5 of each germination. By the time they were ready to transplant into their final large pots, I did manage to find a supply of nursery soil that was amended with shredded bits of bark or plant matter.

But my point is that tomatoes are pretty adaptable, and if you are just doing this for the fun of it, you can experiment with different methods and materials on hand and see what works.

I tried the egg carton methods years ago, and found it did not work well. The soil dried out too fast, and they are too shallow for that tomato root to get down there and spread out.

If you are practicing, understood. It's a good thing to do. But what do you want to achieve? Even if you buy Jiffy seed starting trays, which are really cheap, and Jiffy seed starting mix, also cheap (and a seed starting mix is a MUST), your tomato seedlings will not grow without direct sunlight or artificial lighting. Lots of it.

I began experimenting with starting seed in mid-September using fresh seeds, Jiffy trays and mix, and fluorescent lighting. Inside the house I now have seven-week-old plants 10" tall. Unfortunately, they'll never produce anything because of the season, but I learned so much about the process.

I have not spent a fortune; I've learned a great deal about starting my tomatoes from seed; it was a very gratifying experience and I'm confident that when I sow my seeds next week for my late winter planting that I will be successful. It was worth every penny.

Try the winter sowing forum. I winter sow with peat pellets. They are pretty cheap. I use usually use cheapo tomato seeds. This year, my brother found some peat pellets at a garage sale so I'm gonna splurge and order some seeds for some giant tomatoes!

All my tomatoes germinate and transplant really good using the winter sowing method!

LOL just for laughs I grabbed some dirt from around the corner at the end of the paved road... after I added water the weeds are growing like wild fire,,, what is a good temp to burn the dirt at in the stove to kill the weed seeds.. From past experience the farmer turn the soil under one foot..///

Do it right or don't do it at all. End of report.

Check this site for cooking info for both ovens and microwaves. Here's the oven part:

"Oven Method- Spread soil not more than four inches deep in non-plastic containers, such as seed flats, clay pots and glass or metal baking pans. Cover each container tightly with aluminum foil. Insert a meat or candy thermometer through the foil into the center of the soil. Set the oven between 180° and 200° F. Heat the soil to at least 180° F; keep at this temperature for 30 minutes. Do not allow the temperature to go above 200° F. High temperatures may produce plant toxins. After heating, cool, remove containers from the oven and leave aluminum foil in place until ready to use. The heated soil will give off an odor."

The only problem of cooking soil in the oven is that you have to live with the smell. I dip my plastic planting containers in bleach and use 10-12 years until they fall apart but I draw the line when it comes to putting soil in my oven.

I spend hundred$ on tomato seed each year (check out prices on Geronimo or Trust) and quite a bit more on potting mixes but consider both a worthwile investment that usually can be regained in a good week's harvest sales. The one thing not specifically mentioned is your valuble time in this effort. If you get poor results your payback is $0.

Sorry but I have to agree on skipping the cooking the soil bit - tested and consistently proven to be of little if any benefit. It stinks up the house and the oven and the soil. Granted it may kill off a few of any harmful bacteria in the dirt but it also kills off all the beneficial microbes and fungi. If you don't want to invest in a decent soil-less mix, you'll actually get better results using the dirt un-cooked.

Dave

I sterilize used soil in five gallon buckets that I've drilled drainage into. Put in the soil and dowse with a large pot of boiling water, cover the top of the pot and let the boiling water and steam do its thing. I do this out on the patio--I just walk down my back steps out the kitchen door and I'm there.

Hot dirt stinks--it doesn't matter if you've baked it, nuked it or boiled it. Your curtains will pick up that odor and it lingers for weeks.

You can get a bale of ProMix for about 26 bucks and it will go a very long way. I doubt most amatuers could use a bale in one season of seed starting. You might want to split it with several other amatuer seed starters. All these other "economy" methods are wasteful of time, space and risk lots of other side effects such as weeds, damping off, disease, and failure.

I've used Pro-Mix bales for seed starting for years, and it works great. What I liked to do is always make sure I had at least a bale or two in the garage going into winter.
As other Texans may have experienced, it can be a pain to locate a decent seed starting mix in late Dec or Jan (when we need it). Seems to be out of stock or seasonal stuff is taking up that shelf space instead. Even the small bags of Jiffy Mix may not be on the shelves when needed. So - best to start giving some thought now to getting your seed starting mix for '09 if you live in Texas.

Unfortunately, Pro-Mix has become darned hard to find in South Central and South Texas, for whatever reason. Home Depot used to carry it, but says they are phasing it out because most casual gardeners don't know what it is and so don't buy it. I have a good nursery just up the road that carries Metro Mix, and so I'm using that now.

Question for Bill - $26/bail for Pro-Mix? When I actually used to be able to find the stuff, I want to say it cost about $12/bail or so minus tax. The bales are 2 cubic ft compressed, 4 ft loose. Are the bales you're talking about larger or double sized?

Suze, the bales I get are gotten through our Master Gardeners program (bought en masse each winter) and they are 3.8 cubic feet compressed bales. Bill

Mac, this was one of the funniest threads I've seen in a while. Thanks for the entertainment. Gardening can be frustrating... a lot of trial and error. :) Its fun, really it is! Once you get going it CAN BE less expensive than buying plants - of course that's after you've bought the lights, the shelving, the containers, the soil-less mixes... :) I know the reason I grow from seed is b/c I can get a lot more variety - not just tomatoes but flowers and what not... :)

Thanks for the laugh and hang in there.

And I nearly peed myself dsack - your bringing seeds to grow on VACATION??!!! OMG, I thought I had it bad!

Glad you got some laughs! Yes it was a nutty thing to do, especially since I knew I would not be around to see any of the ripe tomatoes on my dwarf plants. They were just green golf balls when I left. But I had fun growing tomato plants in what would have been the dead of winter back in Minnesota. I am so jealous of all you people in the south that have those long growing seasons.

Don't be too jealous. People like me in 8b have the issue with heat being too high for 3 months a year to set fruit. So we plant in February, start setting fruit in April/May, and then suddenly June hits and the pollen goes sterile. Plants grow but they're useless. Then we (I?) plant another set in August, and they start setting fruit in late September/October - but it starts to get too cool and they don't want to ripen. So right now I've got four plants filled with green tomatoes where I've only pulled 2 ripe tomatoes so far. I've stopped watering and I'm close to cutting roots to force them to ripen off. Plus, I've topped them and am pulling any new growth.

Just a message to say we all have our gardening challenges. I dread the summer, you dread the winter. Otherwise it's all the same.

I'll trade you my 20 degrees for your 60 anytime. :-)
JMO,
Tom

In the summer, I'll trade you my 105 for your 80. But I get your point. I'm just saying gardening is tough in our extreme hot/cold climate here, just as other areas have their challenges.

Well, except for those California growers.

High tunnels (greenhouses) are a means to even out the weather a bit to allow longer harvest season. I just finished my tomato harvest season a few days ago from same plants that I picked tomatoes from in the end of May. Our farmers' market season ran from May 30 - Nov. 21 this year and I had fresh tomatoes every week. Naturally I needed a little extra help from a few wood stoves but it makes sense to keep plants producing past the first few frosts. Keep in mind that someone needs to monitor conditions on a regular basis and make adjustments.

This morning our outside temps here droped to 16F. My fires are now out but I don't think temps are as much of a chalenge as the decreasing daylight. I'm even more optimistic for next year. My cup is half full, not half empty.

Can I fit a heat tunnel on my 8 foot by 4 foot patio at my apartment.. I'm sure the office would approve of that..

Seed Fertility

Last year I planted three seeds in pots of garden soil. None came up. Seeds usually produce about 90 percent of the time. I have never had any trouble before with seeds. I thought I had some bad seeds.

I took 10 seeds and put them in a damp paper towel. I kept the towel wet, and 8 out of the 10 seeds rooted.

Karyl

Just a note mflocco, but I can take 105 a lot easier than 20, AND SNOW POSSIBLE TONIGHT!!!! HELP!!! :-)

Cdbob, I get where you are coming from, trying to do this "cheaply as possible" was what I was trying to do as well, but a few small & inexpensive purchases as Dave & others mentioned will work wonders, I agree. This is my first yr doing so & this past week I got our first harvest & the tomatoes were awesome compared to store bought! I used small containers like yogurt cups with holes drilled in bottoms & some cups (Solo red disposable cups you get at walmart, like what you would use for a bbq or kid's birthday party, they were 30 for $3.45 or something like that) & used soil-less seed starting mix (Jiffy brand form Walmart for $3.47 a bag, one bag more than enough for our small garden, Lowes also had Ferry MOrse & Miracle grow brand for similar price).
I bought some seeds from some sources recommended here & got some from some generous people here for SASE and some from Trudi's website wintersown.org for sase also. I wanted to try different types to see what grows best for us here in FL. & what each person in the family likes best, but didn't have alot to spend, so this worked wonderful. The seed starter works awesome! I had tried seeds from store bought tomatoes and had no results worth anything except for seed from a purple cherokee I got at a store. Everyone here is very helpful & has lots of good advice. Try again using cups or something larger than the egg carton, I do use egg cartons but for germinating small flowers like pansies, violas & nasturtiums & use seed starting mix in the cartons for these. Good luck & give it a try using the info you got here. Visit Trudi's wintersown website for free seeds (she will sendyou small pkts of at least 6 types you choose for the cost of an envelope and 3 stamps, one to mail to her & two on the sase to return to you!) Good luck!

Use styrofoam cups, poke a hole in them and write right on them so you remember what seed you planted. I use bagged soilless mix. These cups fall over pretty easily, watch out! Regular fluorescent lights work well. They harden off on the back porch under big plastic storage boxes placed upside down over the flats. Sometimes it gets windy, so a couple of bricks to hold the box down helps. Yeah, I drag 'em in at night when it's cold - most of the spring in NH~