They ['Detroit'] are up to making big bucks for their company -- and I suspect their PR/ad-writers don't know how to handle ads for an 'economy' car --- it's easier to write for the mine-is-bigger-than-yours-yuppies and the luxury-minded.

As so many of us have pointed out, 30-40 mpg cars were made (and well-made at that)15-20+ years ago. Without incorporating computers; and with basic mechanicals the average joe could figure out how to keep in top-notch shape. Twice I've been in cars that were hit by lightning, with no ill effect (other than my ringing ears and momentary blindness). I keep wondering if the new car will die if it gets hit by lightning? I mean, can it actually continue to run without those computers?

Vgkg - did you read the postings about the 250 and similar cars on slashdot.com? There are some good points made, including the environmental effect of making those extra batteries. Trade-offs, which is worse? Or maybe we should say, which is more tolerable?

Local (D.C. metro area) gas prices have hit $3 pg as of this a.m. - that's a 70-cent pg increase in less than a week. Some of those congressmen in their Detroit cars just might notice the bite.

I've read this too and wondered is our Gov't really this incompetent to pass up such obvious short-term measures to save energy or is it just so corrupt that politicians can't even conceive of energy savings programs that don't involve passing along taxpayer dollars to corporate mega-companies?

It makes sense to re-charge a battery array with power off the electric grid, if the power comes from a source that is non-polluting, like wind, solar, or hydroelectric. But, I don't see the advantage if the electricity is derived from burning coal or natural gas. In that case, you still end up with smokestack pollution, with the smokestack located in another neighborhood.

Eric, the one advantage would be charging autos at night using low electricity usage hours to save money. I'm not positive, but I think pollution from smokestacks is less than that from auto exhaust (at least comparing auto pollution avoided versus smokestack pollution incurred for a given auto). But I agree, it would be ideal to charge autos from low polluting sources.

Hi Melody, no I haven't checked out that site, this article was from Lifescience.com. As for the multitude of batteries it seems like they could hopefully be recycled rather than trashed, like when regular car batteries which last an avg 5 years are exchanged when new ones are installed. 250mpg would be 10x what I get now with my caravan and I'd gladly give up the space for batteries as long as they're considered long lasting (5 years?), safe, and crash-proof. The trade off of much lower oil prices would out weight a .25 overnite re-charge imho.

I'm curious. Does anyone know how much fossil fuel is involved in the recycling of batteries? High or low? Is it negligible compared to current pollution? I have no idea how the process works.

VgKg, slashdot is a bit weird (although very up to the minute), but the response postings can be quite informative due to often widely divergent opinions.

The batteries for DD's hybrid are guaranteed for 10 years (that's better than 5 years); she's getting 48 to 54 mpg, mixed driving; SIL's hybrid has same guarantee, she's still getting nearly 80 mpg.

Why do so many consider it ridiculous to have a battery-powered vehicle that "only" goes 20-30 miles between re-charges? I suspect that 90% of the population drives *less* than 30 miles per day [other than on specific vacations]. Of the 90 people working in my office building, I know of 3 that drive 40 miles plus 2 that drive 140-160 round-trip [the remaining folks all drive between 5 to 30 mpd). I, for one, would prefer to have a vehicle using solar-powered batteries instead of gasoline. Produce such a vehicle and sell at a reasonable price, and I suspect there would be a huge market. 30 mpd @ nothing to the big oil companies sounds lots better than even the touted 100-250 mpg which is still dependent on your local gas station.

When electric cars were first introduced, around the same time as the Ford model T came on the scene, the electrics became quite popular. The owners became adherents, and were disappointed when this technology failed to succeed in the marketplace. Much the same happened when General Motors ran a fleet of electric cars in California, back in the 1970's. People learn to adapt to the inherent limits, and they appreciate the quiet ride. GM retained ownership of these vehicles, and would not sell them to the lessees at the end of the program.

Eric - 1894 for the manufacture of electric cars with rechargeable batteries. See link for an interesting timeline. Pitiful that we have made so little progress in 111 years!

However, various cities have used some hybrid vehicles for public transportation for many years (San Francisco since 1998); and all-electric delivery trucks and buses were in use in the early 90's. I can't find the details, but I remember riding an electric bus while in Canada during the 'World's Expo' (1965?). But while surfing, I came across this link:
4 May 2005 - BC Transit [Canada] announces use of hybrid buses. The interesting part is to note that the cost is apparently half again that of a standard bus - to me, that seems ridiculous!
http://www.bctransit.com/regions/kel/news/hybrid_electric.cfm

Here is a link that might be useful: timeline

Stumbled across this effort in Austin, Texas called the "50-City Plan" to build a market for plug-in hybrids:

The Plug-In Hybrid 50-City Plan is intended to build a market for gas optional hybrid vehicles around the country. The 50-City Plan seeks support from utilities to:

Develop $50-$100 million in incentives from utilities for PHEV procurement and fleet purchase commitments by government, private businesses and consumers.

Action Items for Top 50-Cities

Develop incentives to be provided by electric utilities. PHEVs will utilize excess generation capacity available during night-time hours

Secure fleet purchase commitments from local, state and federal governments

Enlist Chamber of Commerce lead to solicit purchase commitments from private fleets

Enlist community and environmental leaders to promote individual citizen purchase commitments

Solicit local government and state support of PHEV initiative through approval of favorable policies

Promote nationwide "Plan to Purchase" Web site where citizens and businesses can sign petitions expressing interest in purchasing commercially available PHEVs from major auto makers.

Here is a link that might be useful: 50-City Program to promote plug-in hybrids

Sorry, I couldn't resist this link... and it does show that there is some innovative thinking going on, at least about batteries! 90 minutes today, 90 miles manana?

Here is a link that might be useful: pee battery

Meldy - Mass transit systems have bee used as proving grounds for new technologies for a long time. Much of the engineering we see in modern vehicles was introduced in buses first. From materials used in belts, hoses and tires, to lubricants and hydralics, to grades of steel chosen for bolts, to sub-systems such as automatic transmissions, hydrostatic drive, and engine management, and even to safety glass. These have all been installed and monitored for longevity and serviceability aboard buses. Records kept by fleet managers show how well a particular product performs under daily rigorous use. Buses work millions of miles before they are retired. You can gather a lot of data under relatively controlled conditions this way yeilding important information about failure rates and mean time between failures. Hence the introduction of high powered hybrid systems aboard a bus before seeing it implemented in commercial fleets if the technology proves itself reliable enough. The cost is gigantic but easily absorbed in vehicles that are already expensive. Consider it publicly funded research.

BTW, New Flyer, the manufacturer of the hybrid coach in the BC Transit link you provided, has been a trail blazer for a number of years introducing many innovations to bus fleets. They developed the low floor bus making it easier for people board, especially the elderly and the wheelchair passengers. They introduced articulated steering so long buses can turn in shorter radiuses. They employ PLC modules to monitor and control most mechanical functions. They use materials and coatings that reduce or prevent damage from vandalism. They have self righting suspension systems keeping the bus flat on very lumpy roads. They have an integrated network so the sign can talk to the farebox which talks to the doors which talks to the passenger counters which talks to the telemetry which talks to the route and schedule adherence system which talks to the stop announcement system which can all be downloaded or updated at the garage. New Flyer makes some amazing buses and they leave GM in the dust. GM makes drive trains. New Flyer makes coaches. If hybrid technology can be scaled up reliably for the weights and forces of heavy vehicles, you'll see it applied in commercial fleets someday.

...Applied some day. Haven't there already been enough trial runs for the technology to be applied *now*? Millions of miles, and the records to show how they performed in real life.

And although it sounds as though New Flyer has been thorough in solving many of the discomforts found in most buses, I still don't really understand why the mechanical change from pure fossil to hybrid would increase the already staggering cost of *each* bus by another quarter-million dollars? The additional cost is easily absorbed?!! Elementary math says that's a million dollars expended for every four buses. If one thinks that's funded by John Q Public, then I think it sounds like JQP is getting gouged in the wallet.

Get your hybrids ready. Gas prices are climbing fast because of Katrina. Prices in Atlanta were 2.79/gal last night and have climbed to over $3.00/gal this afternoon on fear and paranoia about Gulf Coast refineries. The highest was one station at $3.65/gal - $4.00/gal is days away.

I saw $3.79pg this morning, and local radio mentioned over $4 in Maryland (DC suburb)- for regular gas. Traffic was a very, very low volume; due to holiday weekend? or due to SUVs staying in driveway?

WTOP also had a commentary from a representative of Public Citizens which was outspoken regarding the oil companies' "price-gouging". Mentioned the oil companies had seen an 80% increase in profits (up from '99) and that was computed before Katrina. And here I thought I was among the few who thought the dictionary definition of price-gouging fit the gas prices...

Link is to their press release regarding deregulation - no doubt there will soon be a release re price-gouging.

Here is a link that might be useful: Public Citizens

Amazing goings on here. Prices actually reached $5.00/gal in the afternoon before the Governor threatened to arrest station owners. The price settled back down to around $4.00/gal ($1.20 jump in 24 hours). Apparently, the panic was due to an email which falsely reported that gas would be cut off in the afternoon. As the radio stations started reporting the morning rush and hour by hour climb in gas prices, more and more people joined the lemming rush to top off their tanks which caused prices to rise which caused stations to run out which caused more panic and so on - an irrational stampede over the cliff.

The Governor and other experts reported on the news that the shortage is temporary and due mainly to the pipelines through New Orleans shutting down. One is supposed to start backup today with limited capacity. The others are promised to get back up to capacity soon.

I detect that our leaders (Governor and Prez) are not being straight with citizens. Telling them everything will be okay and back to normal but not cautioning them to cutback or take public transportation. We are on the eve of the big Labor Day weekend and no one is advising people to maybe stay home and not burn gas.

Folks interviewed in gaslines are angry and afraid but not prepared to make changes in their lifestyle. They do seem ready to riot though.

...And we thought Bagdad was chaotic. There is often a thin veneer of civilty that disappears when troubles like the hurricane happen. It brings out the best and the worst.....and the worst can be ugly.

Topped off my tank to get ready for my annual week getaway at Cape Hatteras so you all will be getting a vacation from me for a change. Will have hurricanes in the back & front of my mind whist there. ~3.00/gal here in Richmond today. Chow, vgkg

Have a good one, vgkg; at least you won't have to face the chance of a hurricane as you did in past year or so.

Gasoline now generally over $3/gallon today, still rising.

Gasoline in Atlanta was between $3.50/gal to over $4.00/gal when I left last night with half a tank. When I got up to north Georgia 1.5 hrs away, I saw most gas was $2.99/gal and I was fortunate to find a station where I could fill-up for $2.89/gal. Its unusual under normal situations to have such differences across 120 miles, but I think we're seeing real local stress on the system caused by runs on gas supplies depleting local supplies. My family is cancelling our planned trip to conserve gas and cook-out at home.

Another bemusement from Detroit: GM's Bellow says customer interest in small cars is being "overplayed", and then says that GM plant/s to manufacture small cars are producing at "a very aggressive clip." For some reason, I get the feeling he was in the decision group that said the equivalent of 'don't bother to advertise the little cars, JQP will keep buying the SUVs"... and now he has to explain why the market for big vehicles has done a splat.

Local gas went up to near $4 (regular) the end of August, then dipped to less than $2.70 by mid-September - immediately after news reports of Virginia prosecuting those considered to be price-gouging. The local prices are now creeping upwards ($2.98 this morning), except for 2 "discount" stations which are maintaining price at $2.70 for regular. Hmmm, Virginia's price-gouging laws may have made some company just a bit nervous.

Here is a link that might be useful: Detroit sees small cars go

Yeah, today's Richmond Times Dispatch headlines says, gas to go up to $3.50/gal soon. Sometimes I wonder if they overplay these numbers so that when it hits $3.30 and stops rising there that we feel relieved and fortunate.

Anybody that doesn't think the oil companies are gouging is dishonest or an idiot. Record PROFIT says it all. I know most here don't like Fox News, but they've been trying to find out how gas gets priced. They've been stonewalled so far.

Now, the Saudis AND Exxon Mobile say there's PLENTY of oil. Huh. Wonder when the price will go back to $20.00 a barrel?

And why hasn't the main stream media covered this?!

Here is a link that might be useful: Saudis and E-M: plenty of Oil!

When will price go back to $20 a barrel? Probably never: That $20 is not the same as today's $20 (think of the price of milk per gallon compared to X years ago to see the simple inflation); plus the law of supply and demand; plus ballooning and apparently unregulated profits by the producers -- and the amount/percentage of that profict seems to be incalculable by anyone other than the company itself [and possibly the IRS]. After all, as long as most Americans are willing to pay the going price, there is no incentive for any gasoline producer to reduce his level of profit... the guys setting the pump price are seeing a fat and lovely bottom line which is exactly what ALL businesses *want* to see. I don't like paying the high price, but I can't really blame the oil business for behaving like a business; we're the suckers who are supporting them by using their product!

What you're missing, my friend, is that while there is no MONOPOOLY of oil in this country, there is an OLIGOPOLY of oil in this country. Five companies control the market in the US. Five. And the banking industry is being driven in this direction as well.

And oil is just like food: it is a necessity in America.

And I don't give A D***N about theoritical 'free enterprise'. Only 3.5 percent of the country (about) owns assets worth more than a million, if their domicile is removed from the equation.

96.5% are NOT millionaires. The per capita income is 32.5 thousand a year. A vast majority won't see much benefit derived by greedy oil companies. (I use U.S. government stats., 2003 and 2004).

Unfettered capitalism and markets profit those who are powerful (read "own the assets"), and those who are extremely skillful and/or lucky. Or corrupt.

Overall, I'm a libertarian. But simple facts don't escape me. Most people are average. They live paycheck to paycheck. And many people have no real skills. And, although in this country it's politically incorrect to say, not everyone has the ability to take care of themselves. Additionally, today's worker is tomorrow's retiree.

THAT'S why the government needs to step in sometimes. What's good for Exxon/Mobile isn't necessarily good for me or the rest of the U.S..

These prices are hurting a lot of Americans. Someone should step in. Of course, so is illegal immigration. And we know that won't be touched, either.

I know this is somewhat political, but until we realize that more people, more concentration of wealth, the less freedom, the more damage to the individual AND to the environment will occur. To me, things will continue to deteriorate.

And yes I voted for Bush. Still would given the choice we had. WOW, what a crummy choice we had!

Randy, you are an enigma: you seem more Populist than Libertarian. I often find myself agreeing with you on issues but disagreeing on root causes. While I agree with you that our 2000 election choices were poor, I'm perplexed by your continued support of this admin given some of your comments, but lets not get into that argument. After 5 years, I'm weary of defending my opposition of GW's policies.

Instead, what are your thoughts on this: Considering the record oil profits - I've read $254 billion over last 5 years - would you support a windfall profit tax on oil companies to go towards energy conservation (hybrid auto purchase or energy efficient home building tax incentives?), alternative energy, winter heating cost assistance for poor, rebuilding the Gulf, Medicaid for the poor/evacuees, or paying down the deficit? What about suspension of the tax relief package so that the wealthiest among us can help support the Gulf rebuilding or Iraq War so we don't pass these costs on to our Grandchildren? Just wondering?

Pat, before taking on your issues, let me distill my philosphy in one sentence: the individual reigns supreme, but borders matter. Without much exposition, this means that every person has value, but even the US has limited resources, so we need to take care of ourselves first, and expect other countries to take care of thiers. And then help where we can.

But in real life, there is a power struggle between groups that want power. Republicans-Democrats, China vs. US, US vs. Radical Muslims, corporations vs. government, rich vs. poor, etc.. The last one is probably more misunderstood than most people realize.

I was raised in Texas, my family was laizze-faire in their outlook. I was raised middle class Baptist, and "the Lord helps those who help themselves." My mother never has understood that isn't a Bible verse, but rather a saying from I believe Benjamin Franklin. (Too lazy to look it up right now.) We had a good life. And I feel lucky because I still do. From this, I do think everybody ought to do the very best they can to support and help themselves. It matters.

But the first eye opening book that I read was a paper back my dad got in 1973, maybe 76, titled, "Why SOBs succeed and Nice Guys Fail in Small Business" (perhaps slightly different from this).

This book showed how the laws, even in that time, were manipulated to favor those in power. It gave an example of a boondoggle bill that was passed by congress and signed by the president that affected only ONE company. And saved them millions. Additionally, it showed how laws were passed to keep competition low in certain industries.

It also pointed out how a rich person may give a million to charity, and be hailed as a great philantrophist, but still be worth $100 million more and get a tax break to boot! Rare is the rich person who really hurts his financial position for charity!

The best example of this today would be Bill Gates. I think he gave some few hundred million for immunization of the poor. Maybe it was a couple of billion. Wow, how generous! In the meantime, he was just estimated to be worth $52 billion! He didn't really hurt hisself. And he never will.

Anyway, before I buy hook, line, and sinker into something, I like to look at the power-money trail. What does it gain the person pushing an agenda? This is why I have a healthy mistrust of environuts, oil execs, and even doctors.

I have nothing against Marshall, but he runs an organic farm. Any wonder why a lot of his posts deal with GMOs and Monsanto? Doesn't mean he can't have good information. But I temper his information with his motives, and want hard data to support his stance. Of course, that's from everybody on everything.

Finally, I'm human. I have my own motives. I want cheaper gas. I want more money. I want, I want, I want, I want. But I try to temper that with caring for others. Most people do. And being human, I have limited intelligence. I get things wrong sometimes.

Right now, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if their were alternative energy sources for vehicles that are not being developed and marketed because of the oil/auto industry. In 2000, Toyota made the Insight. A/C, room for 2 plus a small trunk, and 70+ miles a gallon. But sales have lagged. Even now. And the Prius and others that followed have gotten worse gas mileage, not better.

Anyway, windfall profit tax has Carter written all over it. But that name works for me. Instead of taxes, how about freezing the price, or having a SIMPLE (no political boondoggle) formula that sets prices? That would benefit most people. Although, not the poorest people. I wouldn't suspend tax cuts for those who make less than $100,000.00. The truly wealthy make much more than that. I'd probably graduate the increase until you reached $160,000.00 or so. These numbers are arbitrary, but they are fairly high because of people who live in expensive areas, such as San Fran, New York, and the like.

Unlike O'Reilly and most Republicans, I realize income redistribution happens. Unfortunately, it seems to be going to the wealthy too much, and not to the middle class and poor.

But I want to protect jobs, and the private sector, so I don't think I'd be too radical.

Just some quick thoughts...

This doesn't address the topic directly, yet it is related.

"USA: October 6, 2005

NEW YORK - A spike in gasoline prices is fueling what could be the biggest year for US bicycle sales since the Arab oil embargo more than three decades ago, a leading bike association said on Wednesday.

"For bicycles, high gasoline prices are a good thing," said Tim Blumenthal, executive director of Bikes Belong, a national coalition of bicycle suppliers and retailers.

US gasoline prices struck an all-time record above $3 a gallon after Hurricane Katrina shut several oil refineries along the Gulf Coast, though prices have eased slightly since then, according to government surveys.

"People's eyeballs pop out when they see the gas pumps and they say they need to do something. One of the options is biking," Blumenthal said.

Close to 20 million bicycles are likely to be sold this year thanks in part to the higher fuel prices, approaching the record hit after a cut-off of Arab oil triggered gasoline lines in the United States.

"It should be close to 20 million units. If you look back historically, the three best years for bike sales were 1972, 1973, and 1974," Blumenthal said.

Last year's US bicycle sales were just under 19 million.

"Independent dealers, specialty sporting stores and big-box stores have told us that since August 1, bicycle sales have jumped dramatically," he said.

Gasoline prices have been on the rise for months due to the high cost of crude and a crunch on global refining capacity, and higher summer demand along with the recent hurricanes have pushed them to new peaks.

Travel and motorist group AAA said it has noticed Americans are looking for ways to cut their fuel consumption by using more fuel-efficient vehicles, or by using public transportation and bicycles.

"AAA is beginning to think that consumers may finally have tired of expensive gasoline," said AAA spokesman Geoff Sundstrom.

US fuel demand over the past four weeks has fallen nearly 3 percent below last year's levels, the US government said on Wednesday.

Demand for gasoline in particular averaged 8.8 million bpd, or 2.6 percent below last year, the Energy Information Administration said.

With energy prices surging ahead of winter heating season, the US government has launched a campaign to promote energy conservation, featuring a cartoon mascot "Energy Hog."

Story by Richard Valdmanis

REUTERS NEWS SERVICE"

(http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/
32841/story.htm")

I'm surprised to learn that people are foregoeing gasoline completely in turning to this alternative means of transportation.

And if the highway-builders would just put in bike lanes, we would probably have a 1000% jump in usage. I live in a very suitable area for biking: few steep hills; a climate that has no snow or ice 11+ months of the year; good vehicle roads -many with a wide edging (which unfortunately is often gravel); and a highly mobile population with a very insufficient mass transit system. But one is risking life and limb to venture out of the immediate neighborhood riding a non-motorized vehicle. Frankly, due to a prevalent lack of sidewalks, there is a high risk of injury while riding *in* the neighborhood. Primary roads are not favorable to bikes: Heavy, high-speed traffic (going 65 in a 40 mph zone is common); gravelled road edges, and bridges lacking a sidewalk are major deterrents -- and local law insists that bikes "share" the roads. Said law probably made by someone who doesn't bike, much less "share the road" with tractor-trailers, buses and vans coming up behind you at 60+ mph.

My fix on bike riding out here in the country is the occasional house with 2 bike chasing big dogs...kind of discourages any distant riding.

The wheels are turning slowly, but turn they do...

Here is a link that might be useful: Rising Sun Turns Green

The National Transportation Safety Board recently divulged they had
covertly funded a project with U.S. auto makers for the past five years,
whereby the auto makers were installing black box voice recorders in
four-wheel drive pickup trucks and SUVs in an effort to determine, in
fatal accidents, the circumstances in the last moments before the crash.

They were not surprised to find in 43 of the 50 states that the recorded
last words of drivers in 61.2% of fatal crashes were, "Oh, Shhit!"

But the states of Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, Arkansas, Alabama,
Kentucky and Virginia were different, where 89.3% of the final
words were, "Hold my beer, I'm gonna try somethin."
;o)

Now stop that Vgkg - that smacks of regionism. I must confess that I've heard that a large percentage of redneck deaths were preceded by the words: "Hey Watch this".

That reminds me of the recently released transcript of the 1986 Challenger disaster. The last words recorded were of NH teacher Christa McAuliffe asking, " what's this button for"?