Cherokee Purple is, well, orange!

14 years ago

This year is my first year growing Cherokee Purple. It was actually an afterthought - I went to Whole Foods one day in late May and there it was, calling out to me :)

Anyway, I was under the impression that CP should have pink undertones. According to Dr. Carolyn's book, CPs are "dusty deep pink with purplish tint and green shoulders"

I know that there can be differences in color for the dark tomatoes, depending on UV. But my Black Krim (on the lower left in the photo), the CP's neighbor, is getting a beautiful color. Plus, these CP's have a yellow epidermis and a decidedly orange store-bought tomato color instead of the expected pink.

The taste of this tomato is amazing. Even smokier than BK. So much so that some of the fruits actually taste like they have a little liquid smoke dribbled on them :)

I guess I'm gonna save seed and grow out next year next to a CP plant started by me from seed. But in the meantime, what do you guys think? Am I crazy? Or is this NOT CP?

Thanks!

Melissa

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Comments (15)

missingtheobvious
14 years ago
some of the fruits actually taste like they have a little liquid smoke dribbled on them :)

There are still Cherokee in the Smoky Mountains. ;-)

Those are definitely not like any CP I've seen. What is the final ripe color? Still orangey, or red?
maizu
Original Author
14 years ago
That's what's surprising...those suckers are soft and ready to go in my belly! (I'm actually making a BLT for lunch today :) )
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Upstate NY here. I grew CP in 2021, and loved it. Produced well, but that was a good year for all of my tomatoes. Not so in 2022. Summer 2022 was superhot and dry here, mid-90's may days in a row with no rain (a town of Kingston, NY, 2 hr away from us declared a state of emergency, prohibiting lawn watering, and only allowing outdoors flower watering after 9pm when nobody would bother watering anyway, very scary stuff). Both BK and CP produced well in hot summer of 2022, upstate NY (well, with me heavy mulching, and daily watering). CP produced larger tomatoes. BK seemed to last longer than CP, almost up to the first frost. Taste was almost identical. Doing blind test, I couldn't tell the difference. CP did slightly better, but I overplanted BK, planting them too close to each other, so no final verdict yet. This year, 2023, I will try again. Problem is I have a small backyard garden and there are so many interesting tomato varieties to explore... (trying tomatoes from the Dwarf Tomato Project this year).
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So why create and market a whole "new" variety just because the skin is a different color but all else is the same? ****** Cherokee Chocolate wasn't created, it was the result of a spontaneous mutation. And the choice as to whether to market a variety is the choice of those places selling seeds. If you want to talk about creating new varieties I think we should look at all the so called black tomatoes to start with. When I joined SSE in the late 80's there were about 5 of them, that's all. Then the fad started for the blacks and now there are over maybe 150 of them listed in the Yearbook. Are they all different? Nope. There are those who have done large growouts of some of them at the same time in the same season and they aren't all unique. The names may be different but the varieties aren't all different. We could say the same about the current fad for green when ripes. Where there is demand the varieties will follow. Names have been changed at some places and by some folks to try to indicate something unique, something different. I could send you to a website where Green Grape was called Eenie Weenie Greenie and Cherokee Purple was called Native American. But I won't send you there. LOL And look at all the wonderful varieties that arose by accidental cross pollination and then dehybridization from that initial hybrid to an OP state. And the same for those that were deliberately bred. I could make long lists of both kinds. Many commercial seed sites, especially those that most folks who grow heirloom kinds go to, get their initial starts from the SSE YEarbook as well as varieties sent to them by others. And several of those sites put a spin on varieties for sales purposes. What does one call a variety such as a well known pink that has had an epidermis mutation from clear to yellow so that it's now red? Is it still the same as the original pink? Nope, it's not b'c there has been a mutation. the DNA has changed. Green Doctors is a nice green when ripe cherry and last summer two different folks got a mutation with it such that the epidermis went from yellow to clear so now those fruits look like frosted grapes. it was decided to call it Green Doctors Frosted, and I offered it in a seed offer elsewhere and seeds are now available commercially as well as in the SSE YEarbook. What do we do about a variety that has become PL where the original was RL? Many would say they are the same except for leaf form, but I've written here many times that I don't think that's a reasonable conclusion b'c there's more than one way to go from RL to PL and more than one gene can be involved. Is KBX, the PL form of KB ( Kellogg's Breakfast) the same as KB? Are Spudakee and Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf the same? So there's a difference in creating a variety either by deliberate breeding as many are doing now, or by dehybridizing and making selections of naturally crossed hybrids to the OP sate, or as a result of a mutation, either seed DNA one or a cell one called a somatic mutation, and those activities have to be separated from what you call marketing, which is not in the hands of those OP varieties that are a result of those activities. Every year I send the best of my new ones I've grown that year for trial to a few commercial places where I know the owners and trust them and how they run their businesses. it's their decisions to offer them if they want to, not mine. Do large corporations also create and market at the same time? Absolutely and the variety Kumato is an excellent example of that as well as Campari and Santa Sweets and many many more. It sure is an interesting situation, but it also occurs with many many veggies and fruits, not just tomatoes. ( smile) Carolyn
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Sey, I am not inconvienced at all,no no worries there ,BUT,I have participated at many message sites such as this one , as it used to be as GW,over the years,and more recently the format has changed with respect to who posts what and for what reasons. I encourage anyone and everyone to know how to search for information for varieties, whether that be at the site in question, as here,and do that first,then maybe fetchTania's superb database,if no info there,then maybe Google a bit,and if still not enough,then try Ventmarin in France. Some of the above disagree with me on pulling up old threads and my rationale on that. I also have no problem at all with folks sharing experiences with varieties and all else having to do with growing tomatoes in a certain thread,none at all,but as to other places a thread just stops when there are no other inputs and that's that,and seldom does someone revive it. So be it. I only came here today since I got the notice sent home,and no,I'm not going to stop that from happening,and yes,I was the one who first introduced Indian Stripe and perhaps the second person ever to grow Cherokee Purple,there are many threads here already about that if one wants to do a search. I spent many happy years here but when it got nasty and someone else who was also here started a new website there was a mass exodus from here to there and now there are just a few from here who have moved there and also post. There are many new folks here that I don't know,and they don't know me either,nor what my own background is re tomatoes,which goes back to when I was 5 yo on our farm.And I'll be 77 yo this June,so many years experience and have grown 4,000 tomato varieties in the meantime and also a book I was asked to write about heirloom tomatoes,which several here already know. Now homebound and having to use a walker of course I can no longer grow the several hundreds of plants and varieties that I used to grow,but I have a local person who grows my seedlings for me,and someone else who cares for them here in the backyard, and each year I grow many new ones,since I vowed when I fell in Dec of 2004 that in my seed offer elsehwere I would try to find varieties that were new to all or most,and have been very successful at that and in the process have made many new friends in manycountries. As the Brits once said during WWII and IMO is apt here,keep calm and carry on.<G> Carolyn
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dave1mn2
14 years ago
If I was betting, I be betting on a seed mix up.

Mine are often a little lighter than I see in pics but they are definately dark. Most often kind of a very dark, brick reddish brown, maroonish brownish purple, something like that :-)

Sometimes very bright, almost iridescent, green shoulders.
mulio
14 years ago
Looks like you got crossed seed.

Cherokee Purple has fasciated shoulders and as a result the flowers form in a way that exposes them to outcrossing. This is true of many large fruited fasciated types.

Don't let someone try to convince you its a mutation. Mutations are rare and have become an excuse for poor seed husbandry.

The nice thing is it appears you have gotten some heterosis for flavor in the cross (heterosis = hybrid vigor where the offspring outdoes either parent - a benefit of hybrids more should be aware of - with the right combo of parents hybrids can taste superior to even the best heirlooms). Enjoy it while you got it because that intensity of flavor may not hold up as well in subsequent generations.
maizu
Original Author
14 years ago
Mulio-

I'm certainly not claiming mutation (I'm a biologist and know how unlikely color mutation is) :) Who knows what it is - the plant was purchased from WF and I have no idea who grew out the plant...so I assumed switched seed instead of hybridization.

Regardless, I'm saving seed just to see. I just ate another one thinking that I was overstating the smokiness...and I wasn't. That's one tasty tom! Here's hoping that it was a switch...but regardless, grow outs of unknown plants are fun!

I guess what I was looking for was whether or not there was a chance this was a Cherokee Purple and I was just overreacting to color.
missingtheobvious
14 years ago
Are there any/many smoky-tasting non-purples or blacks? Wouldn't the taste indicate probable CP ancestry?
maizu
Original Author
14 years ago
Are there any/many smoky-tasting non-purples or blacks? Wouldn't the taste indicate probable CP ancestry?

--------------------

That's what I was worried about :) Regardless, I'm excited about the grow out!
blameitontherain
14 years ago
Mulio,

Does one get "fasciated shoulders" when one is diligent about upper body work-outs? ; )

Rain
sue_ct
14 years ago
Mine look just like that before they ripen, I think, but they ripen to a dark purpley red. So see how they ripen up first. I would post photos but I ate the last ripe CP yesterday. I will have to wait to more on my counter to ripen. Unless I am mixing up my varieties. German Johnson, Cherokee Purple and Early girl are the only "large" ones that have ripened to eating stage for me yet.

Sue
colokid
14 years ago
My first one, that is all most ripe, looks just like Melissa's pictures, no dark color at all. Last year my CP plant was dieing, and I saved seed from one very small PURPLE tomato. So I could have crossed. Have only one plant, but I will watch the later ones as they ripen.
sue_ct
14 years ago
I just looked at the ripening ones and the CP are a darker red, even a darker green in the green areas, although not showing real purple in the unripe stage. It was the German Johnson that looked closer to yours. But boy are they yummy, and if yours still taste great at least you haven't lost much!

Sorry,

Sue
compost_pete-grower
14 years ago
That does not look like any cherokee purple I have ever seen. Mine are green, then turn dark pink or purple with green shoulders while ripe. No red or orange on any I have grown.
pennyrile
14 years ago
Name tags in the plant containers get switched at retail outlets as frequently as seeds get switched somewhere between harvest and redistribution.
maizu
Original Author
14 years ago
Well, I guess we all agree this is definitely NOT CP :) But I'm in love with this tomato that I'm lovingly calling Cherokee Orange (obviously not for distribution!). Just to clarify, the guys in the photos were completely ripe and are now in my belly, smoky taste and all!
pennyrile
14 years ago
Just for the record, Maizu, I've gotten typically "pink" fruit (no green shoulders and no "purple hue" - no chlorophyll retained in the flesh) from Indian Stripe (a tomato very similar to Cherokee Purple) on two occasions 4 years apart. I attribute it to stray pollen the year before.

Cherokee Purple is, well, orange!

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Cherokee Purple is, well, orange!

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