A picture would be worth a thousand words here. Bringing in soil might be good if you suspect the original soil has been washed away for some reason. Some trees will react to hard soil by sending their roots out at the surface. Then as the tree ages, the roots become larger and expose themselves above the surface. If that is what has happened, then adding soil on top of the natural grade will cause you drainage problems and could cost you extensively if water pours into your basement (worst case). Adding soil should be done with considerable forethought as to the consequences. Another thought on adding soil is to keep it lower than the root bark on the trees. Tree roots flare out from the base of the trunk. If you bury the root flare completely, then you are burying tree bark. Tree bark will often rot when it is below the soil level. It is best if you leave some root flare above the soil level to be sure you are not burying tree bark. Tilling is a bad idea for many reasons. One of the obvious ones is that you have roots everywhere. You can't till tree roots. A much less obvious reason is that tilling destroys soil structure by fluffing it up. Once it is fluffy it has to settle again. That process takes 3 years. When it finally settles it will settle unevenly leaving your surface bumpy. Grass seed should never be mixed in with surface soil. It always goes on top of the surface. Many people recommend "scratching" it into the surface but that is not necessary. Nor is covering it with straw. All you need to do is loosen the soil at the surface (1/16 inch deep) before you apply the seed, then apply the seed, and finally roll the seed down with a water filled roller (rented). Seed should remain at the surface. If you insist on straw, as goren said, be careful not to use hay. Hay is forage for animals and has seed in it. Straw is the left over after the seed is threshed out. New seed must be watered 3x per day at breakfast, lunch, and dinner for about 10 minutes. The idea is to provide enough consistent moisture for the seed to swell and open (germinate). Unfortunately these are the exact conditions that crabgrass seed needs. For this reason grass seeding is most successfully done in the fall after crabgrass has stopped germinating. Also grass sprouted now will have weak roots that cannot stand up to the summer heat and dry weather. That might not be that much of an issue in your area. Don't assume you have clay. Fill a mayonnaise jar half full of dirt. Then fill the jar completely with water and a drop of soap. Swish it around and let it settle. You will see rocks and sand settling immediately to the bottom of the jar. In an hour all the silt will have settled. At that time if you have clay, the water will be cloudy. Let it sit another day and see if the water clears up. If it clears then you do not have clay. Clay will cloud the water for days and days. There are several conditions of minerals that cause soil to seem to be clay when in fact there is no clay at all. Don't be too surprised by this. Adding gypsum without doing this test and a soil chemistry test can be a mistake. I disagree with goren on mowing height. The only grasses that need to be mowed lower than 3 inches are bermuda, centipede, bentgrass, and some zoysias. Kentucky bluegrass (which you can't grow in shade) should be no lower than 3 inches. Fescues and all the other grass types should be mowed back to 4 inches. Usually this is a mower's highest setting. Grass grown in the shade needs to be longer simply so it can photosynthesize. Can you post pictures showing the tree roots and one from a distance showing the trees with the canopy?

I must be in the wrong line of work. Even if I ever put the value of a lawn above that of a garden, I couldn't imagine ever justifying the time, labor and big expense of removing all my topsoil and replacing it with purchased material, not to mention all the underground plumbing, just to grow grass. I don't get it. (And I think I'm glad I don't.) If it were me, I'd have just treated it like the clay soil gardens I've had and made that work with a little hard work, cover crops and compost. Throwing away topsoil is never a good idea to me. I hope your topsoil can be put to good use by someone to help grow crops instead of just chalking it as waste like the huge amount of other topsil lost each year through erosion, poor agricultural practices and homeowner waste. Someday, (when it's too late.) we will appreciate what a national asset our topsoil was. (Have you checked the lawn forum here? There are probably people there that appreciate lawns and may offer practical advice.) Enjoy your new lawn. Wayne

We live in Oklahoma, and have clay soil. My solution has been to take a pick ax, dig down at least a foot, remove the clay, then before putting in anything, take that axe and work up the remaining clay. Once the remaining clay has been stabbed and torn, put in some top toil or compost. THis is for drainage, and the added soil will never never combine with the clay. Once you have this part of the bed prepared, you have a hole that is at least 12 inches deep. Put in good top soil with some compost mixed in it. (Pure compost will create a swimming pool, and kill any plants.) Once you have filled the hole, water it, stomp on it, then continue filling higher and higher. Put in some plastic or metal around the sides of the bed that will hold the soil, and continue building it up. Again water and stomp. When you plant your roses, make them very very high. THey will begin to sink, but start with them high. You are planting in a modified raised bed. Little by little as time goes by, you will know when to add compost, and you will watch the drainage. If you need to display one rose, follow this process, and pretend that you are preparing a bed for 5 roses. The clay will begin mixing in with the top soil ----- never. As least never in the years we have been here, and that is since 1979. Peat moss will become as dry as a brick, and also will not mix well. This may not be true if you live in a wet area, but in Oklahoma, I don't use peat moss. If what I have written will not work for you, you might try putting in small rock under the 12 inches you have dug. Once you have prepared you bed and roses, you would need a good amount of mulch to also protect your plants. Be sure to be scientific with your watering, and I think you will be fine. Scientific with watering means that you should find an area to dig where there are not roses, and watch from time to time what the water effect is in that area. The clay that you remove can be a good product to use to border your beds. I hope this helps, Sammy

Well, Louisianagal, you've inspired me. I've decided I'm not going to till, and I made a spectacle of myself at WalMart last night, pointing to "one of that" and "two of those, please, thanks" to the poor scrawny garden center greeter who had to carry six 40 lb. bags-o-stuff to my car. I wish there had been room in the car to carry him home to help me get them out. Anyway, I have 2 bags topsoil, 2 bags organic humus, one bag organic compost, 2 bales of 2 cubit ft. sphagnum peat moss, almost 3 bags of MiracleGro garden soil (bought when I thought I would till), more than half a bale-o-straw, lotsa newspapers and am going out now for more straw and cardboard. Whew! Worked up a sweat just TYPING it. Now another question (yes, really). My tomato seedlings are just at 6" and under, and I have 23 of them (Burpee heirloom rainbow variety pack, 6 different kinds, all indeterminate, I think). It'll be quite a while yet before I need to transplant, so if I start layering NOW, will my garden be ready to recieve the plants in 2 or 3 weeks? Will 12" of layers be enough, considering that, at transplanting time, it will have gone down? My thinking is that after 2 weeks or so, the bottom layer (cardboard and/or newspaper) should be sufficiently broken down enough to allow me to 1) dig past it into the native lawn, dump a trowel full of humus or compost, drop peat pot, then re-cover with my layers and mulch (I bought a little bulb planter tool this week for that very reason); or 2) if the layers are deep enough to NOT need to dig through the cardboard, the growing roots will break through the cardboard and thrive in the soil underneath. As I stated before, I have LOADS of earthworms, so I imagine they'd do ok, and my sweet corn seedlings(which I started inside in peat pots) were set directly into holes I had dug into my sod, with only a bit of mushroom compost in the hole and covered with wet newspaper and straw, and they're doing great...I haven't even top dressed them since I put them in about 3 weeks ago. I'm having to deal with the surrounding grass poking up around the hole, as I did not smother heavily enough, I'm correcting that now. In the same plot, several holes-in-the-ground to the north, bush beans, same story...looking good, but I'm trying to clear and smother. Dang me and my rambling. Sorry. Oh, and one other thing (yeah, I do that, I know). I just read on another site (or this one) someone's comment about the bottom layer of a lasagna garden...poster said that cardboard breaks down better than newspaper, "according to those who lasagna garden". Has anyone heard that? I haven't. TWO other things (I lied). When my layering's done, I plan to cover with black plastic (the kind found in the paint supplies department, not breathable), as I heard that it will "bake the lasagna", so to speak, to speed up breakdown. Any thoughts, anyone? I'll remove the plastic before planting. If air supression is deemed a problem, I can run my garden weasle over it for holes. I'd appreciate any and all opinions. Louisianagal, if you're reading this, I would like to hear of the arbor your hubby made for you. Thanks for letting me run on (and on, and on...) Joyce P.S. .... (just kidding...)