Smokers Beware: Keep Your Hands to Yourselves When Outdoors...

Hi Hort,

Ya, you know I smoked some dried Pot-Leaf tom foliage some time ago and I soon discovered that I was becoming a hirsute beast... and my canines became very robust. Moreover, I took to howling at a full moon. I assumed it was just the aminal coming out of me.

Reg

Hortist,
I'm suprised at you.

Can anyone show documented cases where this has happened? There has been a lot of chit-chat about this, but to the best of my knowledge, no one has shown scientific proof. Is Carolyn lurking 'round here?

Well there was a case of it reported in Venice, California earlier this year. And as one North Houston tomato grower warns ... just about any disease know to inflict tomatoes can blow in on the wind.

Is Carolyn lurking 'round here?

I am from time to time.

All I can say is that my info is somewhat different based on the info from my tomato pathology books and reading on line.

My understanding is that's it's only imported turkish tobacco that's a probem since US tobacco growers switched to using TMV tolerant strains many years ago.

My pathology book says that TMV is most common as transmitted manually when seedlings are being transplanted in large commercial greenhouse operations.

These days it's more likely that the problem that appears to be TMV is actually CMV which has symptoms that can be quite similar to TMV and CMV has many many alternate hosts that can serve as a source of infection.

I know there are isolated outbreaks of TMV here and there, the origin of the TMV not always known, but think Turkish tobacco maybe, b'c the last widespread outbreak of TMV that I'm aware of occurred in MO maybe about 25 years ago now.

So that's what my understanding of the situation is these days.

Carolyn

what about chewing tobacco??

carolyn, you know you are loved here right? but i have something to say. i think it is rude for anyone esp someone with your education to use abrreviations w/o sharing with their audience just what they mean. you know communication can only occur when your audience knows what you are saying?

souds like 100% BS

carolyn, you know you are loved here right? but i have something to say. i think it is rude for anyone esp someone with your education to use abrreviations w/o sharing with their audience just what they mean. you know communication can only occur when your audience knows what you are saying?

*****

In no way to I mean to be rude.

I used two abbreviations in my last post.

One was TMV which was already defined/described in the initial psot in this thread.

The second was CMV, which is Cucumber Mosaic Virus.

If ever you don't understand an abbreviation that **anyone** uses, rather than suggesting that they're being rude I think it's best to just ask the person posting what is meant by this or that abbreviation.

The more you post here you'll find that many here also abbreviate the names of varieties as well as many other things having to do with tomatoes.

Examples of variety names might include:

NAR, Neves Azorean Red
ARGG, Aunt Ruby's German Green
AGG, Aunt Gertie's Gold
EPB, Eva Purple Ball

..... and so many more.

So if you don't recognize something just ask the poster b'c no one goes out of their way to be rude, and I'm sorry that you actually thought I was being rude. In all the years I've posted here you're the first person to make that allegation as to abbreviations and the like.

And this issue has nothing to do with someones background or education. It's just tomato talk and that's what everyone is here for and backgrounds of folks here vary widely.

Have you read the several articles in the FAQ section so you know what RL and PL and BER and the like mean? Those articles are there to be helpful, they really are.

Carolyn

Golly-Gee Wally.....The tobacco companys sure have tricked the American public, so bad that now They have to put Warning lables on the Tomatoe Plants that Ya buy....."

I didnt see that on the seed packs though.....But take cautions if Ya smoke, Best bet dont smoke in Yer garden, right? Well Shoot-me-a-runnin...Bad Blane, was puffin on M-Boro when I took this pic.....

{{gwi:1332813}}

See? They still grow....Just dont let Yo plants in-hale! and good Gardenin to Ya!!!!

Well there was a case of it reported in Venice, California earlier this year. And as one North Houston tomato grower warns ... just about any disease know to inflict tomatoes can blow in on the wind.

Thanks, Bill. How very interesting that particular tidbit of information is. And thanks for sharing, you are always so very helpful. ;) ;) ;) Too bad your entire off-the-cuff comment is a strawman. Looks like someone in Ct. wants to play w/words for his own purposes. ;)

But since we're on the subject of disease, what I personally find even more helpful is the advice by a certain tomato grower that fungal spores are knocked out of the air with rain, and may even be knocked "all the way to the ground and somewhat controlling their spread on the foliage of the plants."

Again, tres interesting. I sure don't have all the answers, but in my experience growing tomatoes, rains aren't helpful when I'm trying to keep fungal disease under control. I'm quite sure you'll make it a point to pass my compliments right along to the advice giver, and thanks. ;)

Wow, this got me wondering. Can you safely pour used bong water on tomato plants?

No silly, you have to strain it thru sanitized wafers first.

My thought on most of this type of nonsence. Why aren't humans born dry and wraped in a blanket so they don't freeze. Now that's a study that should be observed by our universities. It really needs to be solved once and for all.

I always smoke in my garden. Taking a break working a lasagna bed, I've smoked. Taking a break while transplanting tomato seedlings, I've smoked.

I've never had a problem.

CMV isn't blown on the wind, its a seedborne virus transmitted by Cucumber Beetles.

TMV must have been a problem with peppers at one time because nearly all the commercial hybrid capsicum varieties list TMV resistance. I had never heard of it affecting tomatoes.

TMV must have been a problem with peppers at one time because nearly all the commercial hybrid capsicum varieties list TMV resistance. I had never heard of it affecting tomatoes.

******

TMV can affect a wide number of common agricultural crops and weeds as well and the gene for tolerance is easy to breed into tomatoes, peppers and more, so that's why you see it listed as one of the tolerances with mainly hybrid tomatoes, peppers, etc.

And in a cynical comment, I'll say that it seems to me that the longer the alphabetical listing of tolerances next to a variety name, the more that some folks choosing varieties think that what they're getting is wonderfully disease tolerant, but that's far from the truth b'c what's listed are primarily systemic diseases with regionalized distribution, and not the most common tomato diseases which are the foliage diseases.

CMV also has a wide host range of alternative hosts and is far more common than TMV these days. It is transmitted by both striped and spotted cuke beetles as mentioned above and can be a major problem with cukes, and melons and squash, which many of us grow in our home gardens. But I think perhaps cukes are the major problem based at least on my experience growing where I do.

And yes, like most other diseases, including TMV, CMV can be seedborne but that's not the primary mode of transmission, which is direct injection of CMV into plant tissue by the cuke beetles.

Carolyn

CMV is not seed borne in tomato and it's primary vector in tomatoes is aphids not the cucumber beetle.

http://ftsg.ifas.ufl.edu/CMVDBC.htm

TMV is still a serious virus in some areas (particularly those w/o access to resistant varieties). For instance I believe I read it is the most common virus in North Carolina in both the field and greenhouse. I have also read that resistant varieties in the greenhouse has diminished its occurence in many areas.

As far as smoking-- even though EVERY university site says not to smoke around tomatoes tobacco is NOT an important source of TMV as was once thought. The ONLY reference that I know of that states this is the COMPENDIUM OF TOMATO DISEASES.

However,the advice to smokers in U.S. to wash hands (or dip in skim milk) prior to handling tomato plants is still the norm but obviously there are many smokers who smoke around tomatoes w/o any ill effects on their plants . But if you owned a greenhouse with millions invested I would enforce washing hands as a minimal precaution--plants may not be infected by employees that smoke but once it occurs (say by infected seed) it is easily spread if the plants are handled.

CMV is not seed borne in tomato and it's primary vector in tomatoes is aphids not the cucumber beetle

*****

That is true Farkee and I should have distinguished between tomato infection and infection of the other veggies I
mentioned.

Carolyn posted:
And yes, like most other diseases, including TMV, CMV can be seedborne but that's not the primary mode of transmission, which is direct injection of CMV into plant tissue by the cuke beetles.

Again, I'd have to check that out but I do think perhaps where CMV is not infecting tomatoes it could be seedborn. I should have read the U FL link first, but I didn 't , so there you go, LOL, re if CMV is ever known to be seedborn.

But primary infection of cukes, squash and melons is by direct injection of the plant tissue by cuke beetles. They also can transmit a bacterial infection at the same time if they are carrying that one as well.

Farkee posted:
TMV is still a serious virus in some areas (particularly those w/o access to resistant varieties). For instance I believe I read it is the most common virus in North Carolina in both the field and greenhouse. I have also read that resistant varieties in the greenhouse has diminished its occurence in many areas.

I read a lot online and what you say above is not what I've been reading about TMV still being a major problem. But then I suppose with so much info out there there's lots of conflicting data that needs to be sorted out.

I think sometimes it's good to distinguish between the needs of the home gardener vs those of the large scale commercial grower when it comes to some of these diseases. And this from your comment about greenhouses and varieties tolerant to TMV which would be mostly hybrids.

Carolyn

In Hortist's post on TMV, "...Almost any vegetable in the cucurbit family is at risk."

I've never heard that before... CMV, Yes, but TMV?

CMV can be seed borne in other host families but not with tomato seed.

Korney, TMV has many host families but I haven't read that cucurbits are infected with TMV either.

This list details plant families and viruses.

http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/Tables/WeedHostTable.html

Carolyn, I did not say that TMV was a major virus per se--only that it can be serious in some situations and areas. I know you have mentioned greenhouses but

North Carolina extension literature says the TMV is the most serious tomato virus they face in the greenhouse and in the field. But the use of hybrids resistant in TMV and ToMV improves the odds.

Carolyn, Mr Zitter of Cornell is the ONLY source that I have ever found who mentions that ToMV is not as connected to tobacco products as once thought--I know you have mentioned him many times. That would explain why many people smoke and they observe no ill effects on their plants.

To Clarify the difference between Tomato Mosaic and Tobacco Mosaic. (from Compendium of Tomato Diseases) Written by TA ZITTER

"Tomato mosaic virus (ToMV) and tobacco mosaic virus (TMV) are mentioned together because they differ only slightly in host, serological, and cross-protection reactions."

"Control: A number of methods to control ToMV, with varying degrees of success, have been reported. Transplants hsould be healthy. The use of tobacco by workers should be discouraged, although tobacco products are not as important a source of ToMV as once thought. Washing hands with soap and water to inactivate the virus should be encouraged before and during the handling of plants." (Dr. Zitter) He goes on to recommend seed treatments and advises that seedlings should not be transplanted into fields where root debris is present.

Carolyn, Mr Zitter of Cornell is the ONLY source that I have ever found who mentions that ToMV is not as connected to tobacco products as once thought--I know you have mentioned him many times. That would explain why many people smoke and they observe no ill effects on their plants.

*****

Actually it's Dr Tom Zitter and the two areas I've mentioned him as being associated with when I post are one, he along with Dr Randy Gardner at NCSU are the two experts on Early Blight ( A. solani) and I've mentioned him as being my source of info on what I termed CRUD many years ago after consulting with him about that.

I didn't know his position re tobacco products and ToMV until you just mentioned it since we never talked about that.

Farkee posted:
That would explain why many people smoke and they observe no ill effects on their plants.

If you mean b'c I quoted him somewhere, no, I never have re tobacco products, but I along with others have mentioned the decreased amount of ToMV for the reasons I listed in my post above.

Carolyn

I guess we can assume from all this that the Tomacco plant (half tobacco, half tomato) might be particularly vulnerable to TMV. Oh yes, the tomacco really does exist.

About the Tomacco plant, from Wired Magazine:

"Nevertheless, Rob Baur of Lake Oswego, Oregon, dreamed of bringing to life his favorite The Simpsons episode, one from 1999 in which Homer grows "tomacco," a combination tomato-tobacco plant. Even though it tastes foul and has a brown, gooey center, the entire town becomes addicted to the fruit after one bite, and Homer gets rich.

Baur grafted a tomato plant onto tobacco roots, and voilà, he had a real, live tomacco plant. The two plants can successfully become one because they come from the same plant family, which also includes eggplant and the deadly nightshade. The tomacco even bore fruit, although Baur said he believes it's poisonous because it likely contains a lethal amount of nicotine.

"I've got this one plant growing, and it's blooming again," Baur said. "I accidentally left the tomacco on the kitchen table, and my wife yelled at me, 'Get that thing out of the kitchen, you knucklehead!' Because it looks like a regular tomato."

Earlier in the summer, Baur tried grafting a tobacco plant onto a tomato root and got a "tobato," but when he removed the bandage from the graft it fell apart and later died.

But the tomacco grafted together well. Baur wanted to know if it was a true hybrid, so he asked a forensic researcher to test the plant's constitution. The results showed the leaves did indeed contain nicotine. The local Fox News station, KPTV, did a segment on Baur's accomplishment."

If gardening smokers have no ill effect on their plants from smoking, what about the ill effect on the gardener? Hmmmmm!

Darn right! I smoke cigarettes (wish I didn't) and I wash my hands thoroughly every time before getting anywhere near my tomatoes, peppers, eggplants, etc!

I remember years ago boiling up chewing tobacco and spraying on the tomatos and rest of the garden for insect control. Smelled nasty, but as I recall it worked ok and didn't kill anything.

Back in the mid 70's I had a roommate who was dating a gal who had moved out from the Midwest. She was the Superintendent of landscaping for the City of Long Beach here in California. She showed up early one Saturday morning in a truck with a trailer with a 5 speed rototiller on it, courtesy of her employer. Looked more like a jetski than a tiller and was probably just as fast. The two of them were putting in an ORGANIC vegetable garden and I offered to help. So the first thing I do is grab a cup of coffee and light up a cig. I wish I had a picture of her face when said " GREAT you smoke, do you have any ashtrays filled with butts ?" Didn't take too long to round up a cartons worth and she went inside the house to make ORGANIC pesticide for us. We proceeded to start tilling the 50' x 100' area for the garden. Before long she came out holding two pitchers of a dark brown watery fluid and said that this is what you use in lieu of pesticides... Mother Natures liquid defence for the gardens pests.
Well....on my next turn to take the helm of the tiller, my roomate thought it would be funny to reach out and throw the thing into 5th gear as I passed...I was in 2nd. I remmember her yelling "NO" and me taking off like a jumbo jet...I held on and was dragged about 20 feet before that thing left me face first in the dirt, crashed and took out about the same amount of cedar fencing. With her face as red as the ripest tomato (angered), she finished the rest of the tilling, loaded her stuff up, and told my room mate she'd call with the cost of replacing all the cracked and bent pieces (ended up being $150.00 and he never was able to get another date)
It was "that" garden that started my interest to this very day. We used and made gallon after gallon of that "dark brown watery fluid" all summer and into the fall. Never saw a single insect the whole time and I was actually disappointed that I didn't get to see a "tomato worm".
To this day I have yet to duplicate the productivity and success of that well "tilled" soil !
I still smoke,regretably,...I smoke in the garden,while I repot seedlings (over 500 in the last12 months), while I transplant, when I prune and tie them up,when I'm just checking them out (everyday). Usually I only wash my hands when I grab a beer and then sit and take a break with a cig. and then finish what I'm doing.
NO, I have never used that "brown watery" stuff again,(but will use it on few this year) and I can honestly say that I've never had a problem while still indulging and not washing my hands.
Rob

PS. Please keep an empathetic tone if you choose to comment about my "disgusting habit" , cuz when people ask "When are you gonna quit?" I always reply with "when you gonna start"

I used to smoke and did it around my tomato and pepper plants without a problem. A friend of mine who owns and operates a nursery chain smokes and even smokes while he's transplanting. Again without a problem. Of course we only smoked American cigarettes.

Randy

My grandfather used old cigarette butt tobacco in a coffee can filled with water and he would spritz his plants with it when he found pests. He used it on his tomatoes and peppers too.

Maybe he was just lucky?

Think about it.... Tobacco products = multibillion dollar industry. Tobacco mosaic is virus VERY bad. Tobacco mosaic virus wipes out crops. Therefore, tobacco mosaic virus is probably not around in the United States. Maybe in Turkey. Do you smoke Turkish cigarettes? I didn't think so.... So don't listen to some dork "horticulturalist."

Also, nicotine makes a great insecticide. Maybe we should make a cigar/cigarette spray for our tomatoes?

Uhmmm...insecticide? Please go on....Dont stop there, back Yo self up, I wana learn more on this Seedboy!

Yes, Seedboy, tell us more.

Nicotine's one of the oldest insecticides known to man, been used for many years. No, I don't have a recipe but see Tylenol's post...

Wasn't it tobacco dust or something similar sold many years ago? (I'm not that old!) And even Jerry Baker, as quacky as some of his recipes were, promoted it. He used chewing tobacco, steeped in hot water or boiling water to make a tea that got diluted and sprayed on plants as an insecticide.

A quick Google check came up with is recipe to make tobacco pesticide. However, it cautions not to use on tomatoes and the like. I don't know about this, but I do remember my mom making a pesticide using water and a couple cigarettes soaked to spray on her african violets.

Elaine

Tobacco dilutions are a fine insecticide for some plants, but on tomatoes and related plants, they are death. Now granted, some hybrids are resistant to tobacco mosaic virus, but it sure can't help them any...

Hi Doof and the group,

"Baur grafted a tomato plant onto tobacco roots, and voilà, he had a real, live tomacco plant. The two plants can successfully become one because they come from the same plant family, which also includes eggplant and the deadly nightshade. The tomacco even bore fruit, although Baur said he believes it's poisonous because it likely contains a lethal amount of nicotine."

Ok, now I just have to try that. I do not smoke but for some strange reason I have wanted to try and grow tobacco. I think it is a cool looking plant. Will try to find some seed later today. After starting a few I should be able to estimate how long it takes to grow to 2 mm stem size and then I should be able to set up a sowing schedule so I can match up some tomato and tobacco plants. (I use 2 mm clips and graft when the plants are very small).

The thought of a poisonous tomato plant appeals to me. All the darn sucking insects and that darn bird that keeps pecking a hole in my few good tomatoes can go and enjoy my tomacco plant. DOH!

Later, DC

http://ipmworld.umn.edu/chapters/bloomq.htm

The tobacco alkaloid nicotine has been used as an insecticide since the middle of the 18th century. This compound is miscible with water and is often formulated as the sulfate salt. Nicotine has excellent contact activity, due to its ability to penetrate the integument of insects. This property increases the hazards of handling nicotine, as its contact toxicity to mammals is also significant. A newer compound in this class is the nitroguanidine, imidacloprid. This compound generally works best as a stomach poison, and has plant systemic activity as well. It is much less toxic to mammals than nicotine.

Nicotine and imidacloprid mimic the action of acetylcholine, which is a major excitatory neurotransmitter in the insect CNS. After acetylcholine is released by the presynaptic cell, it binds to the postsynaptic nicotinic acetylcholine receptor and activates an intrinsic cation channel.

This results in a depolarization of the postsynaptic cell due an influx of sodium and calcium ions. The synaptic action of acetylcholine is terminated by the enzyme acetylcholinesterase, which rapidly hydrolyzes the ester linkage in acetylcholine. Nicotine and imidacloprid also activate the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor, but do so persistently, since they are insensitive to the action of acetylcholinesterase. This persistent activation leads to an overstimulation of cholinergic synapses, and results in hyperexcitation, convulsions, paralysis, and death of the insect.

Good job Seedboy!! Ya backed Yo self up with a nice little bit of Info, Ill do so more research on this. and Thanks! Well done and Great gardenen to Ya!!!!!

"Well there was a case of it reported in Venice, California earlier this year. And as one North Houston tomato grower warns ... just about any disease know to inflict tomatoes can blow in on the wind."

Aha! I didn't notice the Venice, California part the first time I read it.

With all due respect to Venice California, a really wonderful place to hang out, watch pretty girls and get a sunburn, a place I used to live a couple of miles from, if somebody in Venice told me that there was a disease you could give tomatoes from smoking, I would very naturally first assume they meant something other than tobacco. I wonder if we can get clarification on this.

HoosierCherokee,
I think that report out of Venice, California, contained a typo.
Shouldn't it read ZMV?
h.

HoosierCherokee,
I think that report out of Venice, California, contained a typo.
Shouldn't it read ZMV?

******

Thanks for the laugh Holly, and yes I do understand your reference. LOL

I needed that laugh b'c starting Wed I'm out of commission re hospital/surgery/rehab for a few weeks and there won't be much to laugh about there. ( smile)

Carolyn

"HoosierCherokee, I think that report out of Venice, California, contained a typo. Shouldn't it read ZMV?"
[Holly]

Yes indeed, Holly. Maybe "Zebraic Manufactured Virus?"

Carolyn, I'm sure the surgery will go smoothly. In no time, you'll be tip-toeing thru the tomatoes again. Don't forget to pack that laptop for the stay. We'll keep you in more stitches than Dr.Richard!

HoosierC - If I see any rustlin' in my tomato patch this year, I'll be sure to shoot anything wearing stripes...
h.

Don't forget to pack that laptop for the stay. We'll keep you in more stitches than Dr.Richard!

*****

HA!!!!!

No laptop here so I'll be going thru withdrawl from online reading and posting and the various e-mails I get.

More than that I'll be missing the Rome, Italy tennis OPen but I will be home in time to see the French Open, tennis nit that I am.

I do have my priorities. ( smile)

And nope, I won't be tip toeing thru the tomatoes in the near future, if ever again. One of the four quad muscles I tore never came back to function after the repair so that knee buckles all the time, besides which I'll probably have to have surgery sometime for my severe spinal stenosis, but I don't even want to go there. LOL So it looks as though I'll be using this walker for the near future, whatever that means.

So I'll just have to enjoy being kept in online stiches after I get home again and can read here and there. Of course Richard will have me in stiches, and I mean more than sutures, b'c he has a wicked sense of humor. LOL

Off topic as can be but I'll give you one example. After the left new hip went in last June I lost both bowel and bladder function which has been attributred to my being diabetic and sensitivity to Morphine and similar.

When I told him that it took five people to catheterize me, which I'm sure he already knew, he calmly ASAP said: consecutively or simultaneously. LOL

Richard is a Master of repartee and I gave him a book on same. One in that book that I remember well was when someone asked Ghandi what he thought of Western Civilization he said he thought it would be a good idea. LOL

And so it goes and I'm off now to take a last drive to look at the wildflowers I can see from the car. I know the coltsfoot and Hepatica are out and I have Bloodroot here at home that's out, but I was hoping to see some early Trilliums and possibly some wild Columbine, the latter of which I also have here at home but here it's not out yet.

And then to start packing since tomorrow looks very busy indeed. Sigh.

Carolyn

I know tomato plants can't be killed by tobacco smoke, else those in my greenhouse would be dead as a door nail. I think the closest one to me is addicted as it leans over towards me when I light up. :-)

You musta innoculated them with smoke to be TMV resistant!