Tom, don't interpret my comments to mean that the East was bare. It stands to reason that places with moderate temperatures and abundant rainfall (or a source of gravity irrigation) had more people. The population was concentrated, but sparse by today's standards. The Atlantic coastal Plain held many large permanent towns a large percentage of the people engaged in farming. Trade routes moved stuff from the Gulf of Mexico to Chesapeake Bay quite efficiently. A sort of 'super highway' trail went from the South along the fall line (that point on a river where the last big rapids divides the navigable/not navigable parts). At the intersections of these trails, towns grew up, and the writings of the first Virginians mention many such trails. Around these towns, the land was likely open and the pressure on game animals was likely intense. Away from these routes, wild lands encroached. Recent estimates of population between the Appalachians and the Atlantic start at one million. Some argument can be made for figures twice that, but if you accept one million, then large areas had to be farmed to support them, and records do show large areas of farming. For comparison, there are upwards of 95 million inhabiting the area now, and we still have woodlands. Not as wild and full of imports, but large areas of the East still look pretty wild. Here in Pennsylvania, we had governors who pushed for buying up failing farms in the early 20th century. The result is the largest state forest system in the lower 48 states. Some counties in the "Northern Tier" are largely state forest. If you walk the woods, you come upon artifacts from that era, mostly in the form of disappearing buildings, rotting or charred. Stone walls are not rare, but seem incongruent among the big oak, maple and cherry trees. This is in one hundred years, and the woods look pristine. Some examples of the consequence of depopulation of the Indians: After tangling with the French and English for about 100 years (1630-1750), many of the Iroquois packed up from their home in NY and moved to Ohio. Reason #1 of course was to get to a place with more furs. PA governor Hamilton took notice and wrote to NY governor Clinton about it in 1750. They would not have been able to move unless the area they were going to was open for immigration. The Mandan Indians, much later, appear in the records from the 1700s. The lived in ND and SD, mostly agriculturalists in permanent towns. Lewis and Clark visited them, and records from just before that time estimate their population at about 4,000. By 1838, when a count was made, there are less than 200, a 95% decrease. One record says that the small pox epidemic left only 31 out of 1600 people in 2 towns. Eastern Indians fared similarly, only there were no Europeans to document it. After their population crashed, they, like many before them, joined up with related tribes for safety. This left big holes on the plains so that when whites got there, they found them empty.

Hello Everyone, K, Sounds like you have a great collection with your new additions... SO..? I need to ask? Ammmhmmm... How many did you trip when you burst thru the doors? Really? LMAO!!! I want to go shopping with you to this sale next year. I know you are one guy that "gets it" LOL...So. Congratulations fom all of us ladies that would love to have a DH just like you!!! LOL... I know you mean well, but would you really do that? : ) Don't worry, i know the truth!!! I watched the security at the show...LOLOLOLO!!! Nice moves... " ) Joan, I like your list too! Jen, How is the new TLD? Is it what you wanted? Did K help you? or did he pick up yours!! You have a great sense of humor K...We all love to mess with you!!! It is nice to have one of the guys right in the middle of all of those women. You are brave!!! I cant wait to see all of the pics... I was out in Indiana at a family reunion, learning about plowing, cows and how to drive a huge Case Tractor. I will say the i can drive those huge babies and i had a ball.. SO Dave P... I can do this even with nails... LOL... The farmers were quite impressed!!! LOL. I even drove a John Deere with all of the equipment spraying Nitrogen on the corn... I haven;t heard the last from the family yet on that one. LOL... They offered me a job!! : ) Sorry i missed the sale and all of the action... Take care, Laura

Not being the worlds most partcular person has it`s advantages. I love the surprise of seedlings, what is true of plumeria is true of most plants. I really am not all that fond of ordering plants on-line, it`s hard to have plants shipped here because of the heat. I try not to do any trades in the summer, then I run into the fact it is too cold in the north. I really prefer local growers, local nurseries, plant sales, swaps. Luckily there are multiple people in our area to buy plumeria from IE: Emersons. You can get a much bigger plant for less than a cutting. I think every plant society raises money through sales, the bromeliad society has a great sale every year in Houston and the daylily socieity sales must be avoided to prevent draining of the bank account. To feed my other addictions I have a friend who raises bromeliads-Jimbos nursery in Santa Fe, amaryllis co-ops, a plant co-op, Cactus King on the north side of Houston, Josephs nursery in Pearland, Houston Garden center (70% off) for citrus!, plant swaps and of course the gardenweb forums exchanges, Maas nursery in Seabrook....I need a 20 step program! Tally HO!

This is from the Gardening in Texas forum: Posted by beachplant 9b (beachplant@excite.com) on Fri, Nov 7, 08 at 12:04 Got e-mail today! finally! I've been to the community center a dozen times without being able to get online. Got confirmation today that I have a job also and that it means no break in service! YEAH! Rejected by FEMA and SBA, writing my apeals. Everyone on the island remains in wait pattern, wait on FEMA, wait on insurance, wait on UTMB-will we have jobs?, wait on city wait on permits-permits denied!, it's horrible and getting worse. The trees all look horrible, we haven't had enough rain to speak of, the water is still iffy, debris lines the streets, whole neighborhoods are deserted and without power, there is a dead horse on east beach rotting away, there is still curfew downtown, a lot of the business' aren't going to reopen...... It's very depressing here and getting worse. I'm working in the yard some but man is it dead out there, every time I rake up a pile of debris I think about what used to be there. Did find the brick sidewalk though, the tree covers part of it but found the rest under the debris. See ya'll at Mercer tomorrow. WE don't have any plants to bring but we'll bring pictures and smiles! Thanks to everyone for their concerns and prayers-the church groups have done more for us than anyone else, federal, state or local. We can never thank them enough! Even the Mennonites have sent food! Tally HO! This was my post in reply: Posted by drewsmaga (My Page) on Tue, Nov 11, 08 at 2:39 Tally, may I cross-post your update to the GW Kitchen Table? I've been posting there with updates I've gotten from the Chronicle, local new, and my horror when we went to Galveston a few wks. ago & saw how bad it was. I'm astounded that FEMA has abandoned TX with this hurricane (heard on on of the news @ 6 last night that local governments are begging FEMA for at least the same amount of aid Katrina victims got, b/c it ain't happening here in TX. My heart goes out to all of y'all in Galveston, Oak Island, Surfside, Gilchrist, Anuhuac, and so on and so on. . . I'm trying to keep this in the national attention. . . I am SO disturbed that the rest of the country has abandoned y'all. . . . Pat, safe in The Woodlands This is Tally's E-mail to me: Yes, please! I am trying to get the word out to as many people as I can and of course I thought of all of us on the gardenweb, we are from everywhere and we all talk! FEMA keeps doing stuff 30 days, 30 days, then the city or the state or the county has to try and get it extended for another 30 days. Why would anyone think that you could clean up after this in 30 days! And the idiot in charge said that housing wasn't going to be a problem in Galveston because all our damage was from wind and not flooding!!!! I guess he didn't watch the news, oh, wait, there was no news! The city imposing a media blackout didn't help at all. The state also had a no-fly order over the area. And then we had to compete with the election and the economy. Plus we didn't stand on bridges and wring our hands while holding out one hand. Good thing cause FEMA isn't any better. They had food and water to give out, but the city wouldn't let us in! Then they stopped giving out supplies, well, 80% of the homes were damaged or destroyed, a lot of people aren't home and won't be for months or years. Still no trailers in site, people are living in tents, cars, moldy houses, gutted houses, 15-20 people living with relatives. The people in public housing have it the worst, They didn't let them get their stuff out, they just left the apts open & moldy & put a big fence around the places. They are all in limbo. The city was going to let them in to get their belongings, the second floors of most places were OK. Of course by now that stuff all has to be moldy and smelly. Tally HO!