Just so those that might be interested won't have to copy and paste, click here

Don't forget to purchase a few plants from that site while you're there for using up his bandwidth. You won't find better selection or service. ;)

I have to say this whole thing rubs me wrong. I haven't been following it all that closely, but it seems that Kent's biggest offense was to purchase a new barn/storage area/work area without proper blessing. This is something to help the organization and the workers, not a new hot tub or an addition on to his house!

I'll still order from SSE, but I'm looking a lot harder at other places like Victory Seeds. SSE has a lot of great stuff, but it ain't cheep and while they've done great work in the past, I'll have a hard time going back to them in light of Kent's treatment.

I'm more of a David fan, and it seems like Goliath is now running the show.

Here is a link that might be useful: Victory Seeds

When this 2nd Kent letter was posted elsewhere, the person who posted the first question about the 1st letter here at GW in two places and at other message sites said in response to this second letter, ...let's just get on with it and preserve Kent's legacy..., meaning, as I see it, lets not go through all the posts with he said/she said, b'c not one person in the public knows ALL the truth of any of the allegations and/or counter allegations.

Let the lawyers do their job.

Kent could have gone to the Board directly with his compromise suggestions, as I see it, but chose to send out yet another letter and says that if his compromises are not accepted by the Board he'll send out yet another letter to the Listed members of SSE.

I got my letter yesterday but have been aware of it for a couple of days.

The fact is that SSE, as many of us know, is running along just fine with the public catalog coming out on time, and while the 2008 Yearbook was supposed to be sent to SSE members around Feb 1, as it is most years, there's been a delay at the printers and it won't be sent out until around Feb 14th.

So I suggest that those folks who are SSE members, who I would like to think are the ones who post in threads such as this one, keep in mind that Joanne, Steph, Diane, Tara and all the staff are still hard at work and the mission of SSE to preserve seeds and historic apples of many varieties is still in place.

Carolyn, who of course is saddened by all the stuff that's been thrown around in the public, since she's been a Listed member of SSE since about 1988 or 89 ( can't remember which year right now) . And who hopes that the "stuff" is not perpetuated here in this thread for in the end it accomplishes nothing .

Carolyn,

I respect you and your opinions that I have read over the years. I humbly disagree that we should let the lawyers handle it. There is never anything wrong with open and honest discussion on message boards. I think they will only help fill in the blanks for us and help us make the decision of whether to keep our memberships (or whatever they are now) or drop them and move on to another form of sharing seeds with others.

Orlando

Orlando, kudos to you.

Don't ANYONE tell you to silence your opinions.

Orlando, You keep talking about it and you keep talking your mind and your opinions...your voice in your own! I appresciate that; I'm sure others do too.

CM seems an employed agent (paid or not) of SSE and her attempts to squash debate or opinion are instructions of the SSE management. She is their tool.

Don't be used. Speak your opinions freely!

I can't imagine worse advice then to let the lawyers handle it unless you like to pay huge lawyers fees.

Yes, Mr. Whealy did send out those letters--how else would he 'persuade' the board to enact on his concerns as he had already been fired.

I have written this elsewhere but here we go again --you can see the 3 'demands' and threat of another letter as blackmail and that always raises the ire of the opposing side. Once challenged publicly they don't want to give an inch in a power struggle. HOWEVER, HE HAS ALREADY BEEN OUSTED, THEY CAN AFFORD TO BE MAGNANIMOUS. Doesn't matter who did what to whom--that is past history.

The requests are reasonable. They have the power to end it now (no matter what the lawyers say). Then issue a 'joint' atatement that the matter has been resolved as amicably as possible in circumstances such as these.

Mr. Whealy's Requests:
Allow founder visitation rights.
Legally protect cattle in writing.
Increase board members, possibly with long time advisors.

Carolyn, you do more damage than good by insisting that the matter only concerns SSE members and that the whole matter is better left undebated in public. Many people are concerned with the preservation of seeds who are not SSE members and many people can have valid and useful opinions on the acrimonious split involving a founder and board of a non-profit entity.

We all know that crap is king
Give us dirty laundry! Don Henley

I find the "hire my personal trainer as a grant writer" rather odd. Don't others? To me a barn for the work would seem more pressing than "quick hire my trainer so she can get insurance". Wouldn't be ironic if the grants to be written were partly to solicit funding from the Lillian Goldman Trust/Foundation. Boy that sure would make for some dirty laundry! But we'll not know because that person was apparently fired and now they and the workers are all out in the cold. $25K is a pretty darn cheap for a professional grant writer (even when one considers other costs such as the insurance and worker comp issues) but still seems fishy all things considered.

While Im sure you have had some kind of relationship with Kent and Diane over the years Carolyn, maybe you should note your relationship to Amy Goldman? You have name dropped her before. You have mentioned something to the fact she is practically a neighbor, that you have been helping her to write another book on tomatoes and new varieties all scheduled for release soon.

But I agree with Orlando, especially when an organization like SSE relies on members for the trading and perpetuation of what Kent (and Diane) started.

I find it all fascinating.

Mmmmmm looking forward to that BBQ!

mule wrote:
"she is practically a neighbr, that you have been helping her to write another book on tomatoes".

Quite a long time ago, I distinctly remember Carolyn's response to someone writing that Ms Goldman was writing a book on heirloom tomatoes.
Carolyn said that it was somewhat of an awkward situation as she knew Ms Goldman and that she had even visited her (Carolyn's) house. She in no way seemed to be interested in 'helping' her write her book. Never said anything positive at that time about an upcoming book at all so I think the comment above is unwarranted.

Of course, I am sure Ms Goldman never saw the exchange so I don't know if she asked for 'proofreading' help or anything like that subsequently. Nor do I care.

CM seems an employed agent (paid or not) of SSE and her attempts to squash debate or opinion are instructions of the SSE management. She is their tool.

*****

Trudi, that is completely untrue and you know it. Feel free to contact anyone you want to at SSE and ask if I'm a paid tool for I am not, never have been and never will be. What is it that makes you post such false statements? A fight wanted, per usual? No fight from me when the false statements made here about me are easily confirmed as being wrong.

I'm just sick and tired of reading all the recent posts about the first letter b'c there never are clear answers.

And I hate to see some on both sides of this issue being called the names they have been and denigrated the way they have been. I said BOTH sides of the issue.

And now we have a second letter and a third suggested if the board does not accept Kent's compromise propsals.

It seems this situation will end up with the lawyers, my opinion, so that's why I wrote it.

And show me where I wrote above that folks shouldn't post or discuss this? You can't b'c I didn't say that at all.

Keith wrote:
While Im sure you have had some kind of relationship with Kent and Diane over the years Carolyn, maybe you should note your relationship to Amy Goldman? You have name dropped her before. You have mentioned something to the fact she is practically a neighbor, that you have been helping her to write another book on tomatoes and new varieties all scheduled for release soon.

I'd be glad to fill you in Keith b'c what you wrote is not exactly correct.

I first met Kent and Diane when I was asked to give a talk at the SSE Campout and that was, I think, shortly before I moved to this new place of mine, so maybe sometime between 1998 and 2000.

Prior to that my only contact was with Aaron b'c he asked if I'd proof the tomato pages in the Public catalog. I did that for several years but haven't done it lately. Aaron also sent me their projected growouts a few times and asked for my input.

In the late 1990's Craig and I offered to try and correct as much as we could in the Yearbook and at that time I had one phone chat with Kent. That correction effort never came to be, and you can confirm that with Craig also and refer him to what you wrote here as well.

And that's been the extent of my contact with Kent and Diane.

I first met Amy, who was an OTV subscriber, when she called me and asked if I had any plants I wasn't going to use b'c she had set out her plants and they froze. I told her I had hundreds still left in the seedling trays, not transplanted, and she was welcome to them. That's the first time I ever talked to and met Amy.

In a few subsequent years she would drive up from her place which was an hour south of where I lived at the time and pick fruits and take them home to ferment the seeds.

On three occasions she invited me to her place for a weekend to see her gardens, and I did so.

I have not dropped her nane at all lately, Tom Wagner is the only one doing that.

I am not helping her write her tomato book at all. Absolutely NO input from me at all. That also can be confirmned by her or if you want to contact Craig LeHoullier to confirm that please do so.

In the last three years or so I've had very little contact with Amy at all, and that contact was about the variety Green Doctors, which you know all about b'c I asked you what I wanted to know, and that's if an ivory colored variety, Dr. Carolyn, could morph into a green when ripe, and you said it could and I passed that on to Amy.

Oh, I did forget one thing. After I severed all four quads in my right leg on Dec 12th, 2004, and I think she found out about that from Glenn Drowns, but don't remember, she sent me a floral bouquet when I was in rehab for two weeks before coming home.

Back to Green Doctors. She had the seeds and was giving plants to others for a couple of years before I even knew about Green Doctors . So I did e-mail her and ask if I could have some seeds. That was in the Fall of 2006. I saw nothing, and e-mailed her again in the Spring of 2007 to ask again, and that time she sent me some seeds.

So that's it.

I must say I really resent the allegations of a few of you, b'c they are wrong.

Again, in my post above I was expressing my opinion about these SSE threads online b'c regardless of what position one is taking, it tends to get nasty, and I hate nasty.

Witness the remarks directed at me here when all I was doing was expressing my own opinion as anyone is free to do.

And perhaps I am wrong to assune that only SSE members would be interested in these issues, for the whole situation is an SSE related issue.

For those who are not SSE members but who buy seeds from the public catalog/website, I indicated above that all was well as regards that part of SSE, thinking that would help.

To end here, I didn't even know that Amy was Chair of the Board until I got my SSE Harvest Edition in December, so that should tell you something as well.

I've typed enough, but I see no reason at all why you especially Keith are saying I'm helping Amy with her tomato book, which I'm not, and I have no idea what you're talking about re new varieties except for the comments Tom Wagner has made about Amy "featuring" some of his varieties, which he's posted several times now at several sites.

Carolyn

You are a monitor at SSE? Yes?

You are a lifetime member of SSE? Yes?

You have lots of history and names to go with your relationship with SSE, it's a lonnnnggg relationship.

You have posted the pat attorney's statements of "no comment" (or some such dialogue confirming that the monitors at SSE have to follow the directives.)

You're stuck in the middle of a big brouhaha--you put yourself there.

To go back to Kent's letter (don't mean to interupt, Trudi) I think his requests are reasonable and his approach is to use the only leverage he has, the people. Just my opinion.

I just think it's odd that the guy that started this venture is out in the cold.

Any organization is going to grow and change. I will still support the growers in the annual. But I can only go with what I can read, and I am not getting much info from SSE. Only seeing Kent's side with some info I get off the web.

By the way, the only info is off the web. I got nothing in the mail from anyone except my annual renewal (which I did renew, and gave a small donation to SSE).

The org did fine, apparently, until it began to grow too fast. In the short time I have been a member, lots of land was added to the farm........I hope that things smooth out and the good works continue.

Cheri

Hey Trudi d - word of advice: before you start attacking someone for god-knows-what is your motivation is, you should get your facts straight.

What is your problem, and what axe do you have to grind???

Forums are for sharing information. NOT for attacking people ...

What are your credentials, exactly? Lay them out on the table, and then I will decide who I think has more credability.

Many people hide behind the anonymity of an internet forum to make up for their inadequacies. I suspect you are one of them. ( No ... correction, I KNOW you are ... )

trudi d, I totally agree with kimpossible and what your saying is totally ludicrous. If your going to spread manure do it in your own yard, not here. miesenbacher aka amideutch

I will say from my understanding and research I feel Kent may of tried to contact someone on this manner but think all have been quited by the someone. Whether that is the board or Amy I'm not sure. We each have to make our own decisions. I have made mine either till changes are made in the direction of the SSE and the board or new evidence is presented. I supported SSE for the whole effort and that included the farm, cattle and seeds. Unlike many I've only been a member for two years. I did write a letter to them and Steph answered it. She was very nice but basically isn't allowed to say anything. I feel if Amy is going to run it she should answer the questions. She said she would honor my wishes that after she mailed my yearbook I would be removed from the mailing lists. She asked I keep an open mind and I will do that if the proper changes are made. I feel Kent is taking the only option available to him and I will support his efforts. It is my personal decision and I respect those who make one that differs from mine. I have also found another seed saving effort to support. I hope everyone regardless of what side we decide to take can respect the right of others and their decisions. Jay

I have also found another seed saving effort to support.

Good for you. It's all about the seeds and their distribution, contributing to a stable organization that you know will distribute the seeds is all that counts.

Do you have some links to share so that others can also share/donate their seeds with worthy organizations?

It is what it is ... that is all I can say about it.
In the end, if the stuff hits the fan, what can they do to save you and yours? It would take years for their efforts to come to your aid.
I support them via membership but in the end, it is up to me to preserve my gang.
What ends up as SSE is beyond my control ... but what this dictates as to my personal existence is of little consequence.
Fend for yourselves as best as you can ... that is all one can do.

Trudi,
This is one that I've found. He answered my email and says they are looking for others to participate with grow outs, ect. And you can also buy seeds a few different ways. I'm not very handy with the computer so maybe someone else can make the link where you can just click on it. Jay

http://www.seedambassadors.org/

Thank you Jay.

FYI, to paste a link into a GW post you need to first hit the review button, and then it brings up an input box where you can paste in the url and name of link.

in the end, it is up to me to preserve my gang.

Cozy, that's what it's all about. When we take the steps to save viable seeds it's up to us to sow and/or distribute those seeds to folks who will see that they are grown. There are many unquestionably viable organizations that will accept your seeds for timely distribution.

Here is a link that might be useful: SeedAmbassadors. Org

I shouldn't be wasting my time, but...

I went back and closely read Kent's first letter, as well as the 2nd one. May I suggest that others do the same, avoiding the temptation to be swayed by emotion?

Kent's letters begin to look unprofessional and immature; out of place for a man who once headed up a unique, world-reknowned organization. The basic mission of SSE, to ensure the survival and dissemination of unique and valuable genetic stocks remains unchanged. If the SSE also exists as a sort of social outlet for like-minded individuals, I'm certain that will remain as well.

Carolyn described a post of mine on another forum: I'll repeat my call for Kent to take a deep breath and be mindful of his legacy. IMO, Kent is endangering his image as an elder statesman of a movement, and is in danger of making a mockery of many of his accomplishments...and by extension, that movement.

As soon as this is settled and off the topic boards on the internet the better. And think of the lawyers fees that will be saved.

The alternative is to ride it out. Sooner or later it will all blow over but the ill will and historical record of the ousting of founder Mr Whealy without granting his 3 conditions
remains like a festering wound to many.

While others are counting on the continuing functioning of the organization and the shortness of people's memories to ride out the storm. But at what immediate cost?

*Allow founder visitation rights.
*Protect cattle as they were used in procuring grants.
*Increase number of board members from the ranks of the advisors who signed a letter of SUPPORT to that board.

Why rehash or second guess Mr. Whealy's letters or actions of the board? It is impossible to 'sort out' and assign blame to a single party.

Agree to the terms as a parting gesture of the recognition of his service and dedication to the mission of seed preservation.

Only hitch-lawyers. (Unless they are donating their services as a community service to a non-profit. However, with millions in assets somehow this doesn't seem likely.)

Eyolf,
I'm not one to get into name calling or a big arguement on the net. I figure most of us are mature and can make up our own minds and do our own research. Which I have done. After which I have decided the SSE has some serious issues I don't want to be associated with. Nothing with emotion. I'm not one to make decisions on emotions. I feel some in the leadership of the SSE are using it for personal agenda's. I will leave it at that as I don't want to name any names or call anyone's actions immature and unprofessional although I feel that would be more the case on the SSE side. Just my opinion. I urge everyone to make their own decision as too future involvement and not let me or anyone else on here sway you with our opinions. There is two sides to this issue. I have problems with the way he was shoved out after he started and babied this association. Like I state above I've made my decision where my future support will go till the proper changes in my mind are made. I just hope some common sense prevails before it is too late for the SSE. I have seen this before in non profits and one reason I'm very leary of supporting them unless they have an elected board answering to someone. I though Kent shown a lot of restraint considering what has happened. Jay