Vicky, I've been waiting for someone to comment on this, since I'm curious too. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with the lasagna method. Can anyone else compare "Mel's mix" with lasagna "soil"?

--Riff.

I can't comment on Mel's mix, so I have been curious to see someone else post too. My lasagna soil has been amazing compared to the traditional garden I had last year. I am figuring out to add to it in the fall for next year.

I guess everyones out in the garden!

I have decided to go with the lasagna gardening, but I'm putting them in now -fall and over wintering them. That way they will be broken down in the spring.

Vicky~

Sounds like a good plan, Vicky. And I think you're right, everyone's out in the garden!

--Riff.

Hi -
I don't know what MELs Mix is but I have gone with the Lasagna method this year. This spring, I converted my vegetable, herb, aparagus, and strawberry hand dug beds (which were ammended KS clay with no tiller) to raised beds and layered peat, cotton burr compost, grass clippings and topped with cypress mulch.
So far everything is doing great - direct seeded and plants. I have far far less weeding to do and my watering seems to be more efficent. Plus the smaller size beds make it much easier to tend and pick - I think I will get a higher yield as well.
This fall, I'll add three more layers when I've completed fall clean-up. If I've understood the Lasagna book properly - I'll be able to start spring seeds earlier especially if I cover the bed with floating cover. The added plus of not having to break my back turning the soil bed is very appealing.

I vote for lasagna (that's what I've been doing for awhile now) although I haven't tried Mel's mix. Really, it's more for convenience. I live in a 20-unit townhouse complex / courtyard area up 4 flights of stairs...the complex is built on top of rock in the middle of a large city block.

Since I compost, have leaves, etc. I just gather and move ingredients around rather than hauling up bags of stuff on my shoulders.

At the end of this season, I'm considering doing a ground cover on whichever beds aren't growing garlic.

mels mix is

1/3 peat moss
1/3 compost
1/3 vermiculite

I don't see that there is (in the long run) much difference...

* Both are complete soil replacements

* Both rely on amending the soil regularly (more compost/ingredients)

* Both are raised beds

* Both are chock full of organic matter

Personally, I am not terribly keen on putting newspaper and stuff into my garden, but from the little I have read - new newspapers are safe (on the all in all) as they are "soy" based ink (is there anything Soy cannot do!?!?!). I've read recommendations to contact the newspaper to make sure, and also to ask about the color inks they use...

I've been doing the Mel's mix, but after the first few, I have started putting a thick later of cardboard at the bottom of the bed to hold the first waterings better. In the future I may bed even more down there.

Unless someone did both side by side it would be hard to pick one over the other. I would think Mel's mix would have a better first year (since the compost is more broken in).

But the lasagna probably holds water better...

I think the actual choice of which is better depends on so many factors that change from person to person... Has anyone done a list of pros and cons for each? (non biased of course)?

What is Lasagna gardening?

Here is a broad overview of it... I believe there is an actual book on it out also.

Here is a link that might be useful: A google hit on it

Hi all,

Well, I now have two lasagna gardens or at least they started out that way. This spring we dug the broken down soil up and mixed it with the vermiculite. I have really liked the results. So I'm started with lasagna the first year then digging and mixing in the vermiculite the second year with very good results in plant growth.

Vicky

In the end it doesn't matter. Mel (of Sq Ft Gardening fame) will be the first one to tell you that of the 3 ingredients in Mel's mix the compost is the most important.

Mel teaches sq ft gardening in 3rd world nations where the idea of buying peat and vermiculite are unthinkable and there he simply teaches people how to make compost.

Lasagna gardening is simply one way to make compost.

So, which is better? Yikes. Is Ford or Chevy better?

In year one results are often lacking in comparison to subsequent years when using highly organic soils. It simply takes time for things to break down, develop the biological activity that makes things grow well and simply 'mellow' a bit.

Throw together Mel's mix or a lasagna bed in the spring and plant right away and there is a good chance either method will result in somewhat slow/stunted plants simply because it hasn't had time to mix and mellow, but in year 2 stand back and expect great things from it.

I am going to put forth that the "slow/stunted" plants are really dependent on what you had before.

My SFG is growing really well for a 1st year compared to our normal in-ground attempt last year. That being said, its not as good as the year before (in another horse-manured for 50 year location).

Our soil here is basically sand and gravel. So last year it did not work out well at all (and we are on a gentle slope). Our SFG is doing well enough, but somethings are a bit disappointing (beans for instance).

One big difference in the lasagna gardening books I've read and SFG is that SFG claims you only need 6 inches of growing medium. I'm just learning about SFG so I've never tried the 6 inches of Mel's mix, but I'm curious -- has anyone ever tried lasagna gardening in 6 inches of medium with success. I've always used 12 inches, but I'd love to use less......

In planning my square-foot garden for the summer, I've been contemplating this issue a lot. A lot. I love love love Mel's books. This whole "Mel's Mix" thing has really gotten my goat, though!

Here's my thing:

For some reason (I just can't put my finger on it), using *so much* vermiculite and perlite -- "inorganic" (as in nonliving) substances -- in an organic garden seems incorrect.

I am SURE the results are fabulous! I am sure the investment is totally worth it for immediately friable soil.

But...

I just feel like I want my garden to be a circle. I generate kitchen scraps and my rabbit poops --> these things get composted or "layered" in the bed (lasagna style) ---> I grow vegetables from out of the wastes ---> I use the veggies in the kitchen and feed some to my rabbit. Repeat.

I just have trouble finding where to put "I go to the store and buy several bags full of peat moss" into the circle.

I know this means that I will probably have less wonderful results my first, second, and even third years than the immediate-peat-vermiculite person, but as silly as it sounds I want to make a garden with as few nonlocal materials as possible.

I can see myself using recycled newsprint or cardboard boxes, I can see myself using horse manure from the police department stables, I can see myself using wood chips from the local tree cutting place and moldy hay from local farms, but I can't see myself buying peat moss from Canada, thousands of miles away, or vermiculite from mines in Australia, Brazil, China, Kenya or South Africa.

It's not that I'm questioning the method -- I'm not. I'm just saying that the use of those products just don't *jive* with my sense of what an organic garden is supposed to be.

OK. I got that out. :-)

Should say:

... *so much* vermiculite and PEAT MOSS -- "inorganic" (as in nonliving) substances ...

my bad. :-)

I think the main reason mel sticks to his guns about the mix is that he knows we gardeners are cheap, and many of the people reading his books are new to gardening and even cheaper. If a whole bunch of people built the sq foot beds, filled them with their weed-infested, poorly-draining, nutrient-deficient, crappy soil, and then had no success, they would probably blame the sq foot method and not the soil. Having a formula makes it simple for beginners (like me) to have great results their first year and want to keep gardening.

The lasagna method looks great, especially for starting new landscaping beds on the grass. Over time, I think the mel's mix ends up more lasagna-ish because you always add compost (and in my case, mulch) but never add peat or vermiculite.

I think that makes a lot of sense. Growing in potting soil is definitely easier.

I esp. liked that justaguy said: "Mel teaches sq ft gardening in 3rd world nations where the idea of buying peat and vermiculite are unthinkable and there he simply teaches people how to make compost."

This is a great forum.

Sweet-potato....I hear you.

I have never used Mel's mix. Just the thought of how much it would cost to start a small garden! Wow!

I do a sort of sq ft, lasagna, bio-intensive, potager thing. I add organic material every year from my yard and my chicken coop, (chickens are just egg laying compost machines) mulch heavily with grass and chopped leaves, and spot-double-dig for heavy feeding deep rooting plants like tomatoes or melons. I plant intensively, but in the style of french intesive. The thought of marking out squares seems too regimented for me. Although I have found the information regarding sq ft spacing to be quite valueble, I like the look and feel of curves, swirls and lots of flowers mixed into the garden.

And since we are on the topic, because I do like to use a mix of methods, and so like reading about others experiences with all of those methods, I would really like to see this particular forum opened up a bit. Adjusting the name of the forum to add lasagna and bio/french intestive would, I feel, bring in a lot more traffic and more exchanges of ideas without taking away from the sq foot info available here.

Just a thought....Kay.

But, with Mels mix you can start planting right now-no waiting. I have not seen a lot of people being successful with lasagna gardening. That is not saying there are none-I know there are. But, thats a lot of work, and it takes too long to get what you want. I want to plant today...

Sweet potato-We have quite a bit of peat moss in this country as well-it doesn't all come from Canada. And, peat moss is definetly organic. Its compressed plant material. I think your missing the point behind the concept of the 3 ingredients. Peat moss-loosens soil and hold water. Vermiculite is used to hold even more water. Compost gives you your growing nutrients. You can certainly do it without the peat moss and vermiculite and use only compost. But, there is no way for you to get the retention you would normally get from these 2 ingredients. And, if you are not careful, just going out and adding certain "compost" like horse/cow/chicken/turkey manure could burn your plants-actually more easily done than you would think. Mel doesn't think gardeners are cheap! He is setting you up for instant success. What good would it do to go out and spend a lot of money to amend a plot of land to grow things if it didn't work? Thats the whole story behind the SFG system. Home gardeners think they are farmers so they use old fashioned gardeners techniques that cause all the problems! Too much water, too many weeds, too much all at once harvest, poor soil conditions....SFG takes all that out of the mix and gets you started in the right way.....

IMO, the purpose of Mel's Mix is to guarantee a planting medium that will perform acceptably immediately after it is put in place. It is simply a standardized way to put together a bed suitable for intensive planting. If someone knows how to lasagna, or to use a diverse and well-finished composts to fill a bed, they don't need their hand held on setting up a bulletproof bed to start with.

In a similar fashion, the spacing guides are a standardized way to do intensive planting that will perform well on the first attempt in a location and can be tweaked from there. At every step, the SFG presentation / rules / procedures are a refinement and standardization of tried and true approaches to get someone successful in their first attempt at an intensive planting endeavor.

Or even experience gardners! No need for "hand held" around here. If you want to go out there and lasagna, go for it. Most people would prefer to start gardening like today, tomorrow, or the next day and not wait until the lasagna starts to "cook"....furthermore, there is a lot more work to do with lasagna than with Mels mix, which brings us right back to what the SFG wants to do: eliminate 80% of the work/water/weeding and get all the harvest...

After last year, my second year of Mel's mix, I am a convert. Starting with two boxes, I enjoyed great success right away. The next year, the soil was absolutely perfect; all I had to add was more compost from my own pile. The only problem I found was with the dimensions of the boxes themselves. I made them too wide and had to step in from time to time. Sore back. I am 65. This year, I made three more boxes only three feet wide.

I have begun to layer lasagna style in one of the boxes just to compare, but I have no results to report yet.

Best of all, no more tilling, no more weeding. I am so pleased. Also, for the first time ever, I have noticed the local stores carrying the right vermiculite grade in big cubic foot bags. They didn't before so Mel's methods must be catching on.

in regards to the one post to someones thing about the newspaper, if i remember right it has to be the non shiny one, that's what we use, i am excited to try the sq ft gardening, but the expense is really scary for me! i do understand the concept of you get what you pay for, so that alone is making it more good for me, and our garden is full of crab grass! uhh killer crabgrass!! so this will be awesome for me!! LOL no tilling, last year was a mess! oh man!! LOL i'm sure it was hysterical for the neighbors though, i was using the mantis to till "turned over" land in 50 x 30 garden. talk about falling over all the time!! LOL
this year it will be so nice!!

Hi, newbie here. Has anyone had success doing a hybrid version of lasagna and Mel's mix? I'm trying it but I don't really know what I'm doing and may just be making a big mess. I've been reading a bunch of forums on this site and I'm basically combining most of the stuff that seemed to make sense to me or seemed to make my life easier.

I built two 4x4 raised beds with cinderblock (two high) and lined the bottom with cardboard. Then I layered coffee grounds, leafmould, manure, and gravel wetting every layer. Because I need instant gratification, I topped the gravel with 6-8 inches of Mel's mix and plan to plant in that.

My hope is that next season I'll have nice compost in the bed and won't really need the mix. Both boxes have a gentle slope that I hope will help with drainage.

I filled the blocks with soil and rocks and then planted some flowers in the holes to soften the look of the blocks.

Before I build another, any suggestions for improvements or red flags here?

No more gravel/rocks, and pick out what you can of what you've already put in.

ok, i can get out the gravel. so, it's okay to put the mix right on top of the manure?

Yes, perfectly. That is actually one of the safest ways to incorporate uncured manure without burning the plants, the roots can dance along the top until the stuff has cooled down enough for them to delve into more aggressively.

Thanks so much. If you have time, would you mind explaining the problem with using gravel for drainage. I'm trying to *really* learn as I go!

Two things:

First, in a raised bed, the combination of height and the materials themselves provide plenty of drainage. I've accidentally left soaker hoses on for days and the standing water in the beds would still be gone in just a few minutes even though the surrounding area was a soppy mess.

Secondly, rocks only improve drainage if kept isolated so nothing gets between them to fill the air spaces. Mixed in a bed, the spaces will fill with the mix material will ultimately slow drainage as the water will reduce to the mix rate - but through restricted opening just where there is not rock - while the rocks provide no nutritional benefit to the plants. In a bed without vermiculite or expanded shale, sometimes a *little* bit of sand helps improve the percolation of the soil in "new" compost, but that is concerned with drawing water up rather than trying to help it move down.

Aaah. So much to learn....

Thanks again!