Ruth Stout vs Lasagna vs Worm Trench vs Compost/move/till
toffee1
13 years ago
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Kimmsr
13 years agotoffee1
13 years agoRelated Discussions
Tilling vs non-tilling
Comments (53)We have a 20' x 24' hoophouse (two layers of plastic) on decent clay soil. I am having some issues figuring out how to loosen the deeper layers of soil for planting, and how to do the final soil preparation for planting with a multi-row seeder. The first summer we did succession-plantings of buckwheat to loosen the soil and discourage the perennial weed grasses. Last summer the house grew tomatoes, herbs, peppers, chard, and brassicas. This year I would really like to implement mechanical seeding, but that requires extra care in soil preparation. I am mostly trying to follow Eliot Coleman's books on hoophouse growing--I also have the book "Teaming with Microbes" but am having some challenge figuring out how to marry up the concepts and applied them inside a structure where it never rains. Regarding loosening the deeper layers of soil, I tried using a broadfork, but cannot penetrate more than the top two inches of the soil due to mild compaction. A mattock breaks up the soil with some effort, or a Mantis tiller breaks it up well, but I'm not sure which approach is preferable. I also have not figured out how I want to water the whole hoophouse. I'd prefer not to spray water all over the wood structure, but would like to get good coverage. As a result, right now plants are spot-watered, which means that areas that are unplanted (and even areas near the plants) get very dry. So all the natural tillers (earthworms and microorganisms) have moved on. I'm thinking perhaps that maintaining a moister environment would help with the "tilling" of the deeper layers? For seedbed prep, Coleman stated that they loosen the deeper layers with a broadfork (isn't working for me), then "till" in amendments with a "Tilther," a tilling device that they had assembled using the motor of an electric drill that only tills the top 2" or so. Finished compost (presumably finely-screened) is applied over that, and the area is raked to a fine tilth, and then rolled prior to seeding. Sorry about this rambling message, but what would you suggest for: (1) loosening the deeper layers of the clayey soil to prepare for the planting? (tiller, spading, mattock, worms, green covers, or don't do it?) (2) watering system to encourage earthworms and organisms to colonize and keep the water where it needs to be? Also, is city water ok, or well water preferred?...See MoreNo-Till Ideas and Composting Techniques
Comments (84)Blutranes, I completely agree with you regarding the forums as a fantastic place for people with similar interests to share ideas. I also thought Rainer's post was exceptional, esp. when he/she cautioned against reductionist thinking. Pablo, I'll try one more time. "No- I suggested that your "data" did not answer my question." The intent of my post wasn't to respond to your question, merely to state my experience. "It's very simple. If you make a claim, you should be able to back it up. If not- then why make the claim?" I did back up my claim with a description of the differing growth of two identical plants. You are the one asking for an elaborate experiment done according to established scientific protocol. My experiment was never intended to be classified as "scientific" according to your definition. If you want to see results of the experiment you have in mind, you need to either do it yourself, or contact a research institution that will do it for you. "With links that cite actual studies. See the difference?" The article clearly says analysis of the peer-reviewed research will take place in upcoming issues, not in that article. You are complaining that they didn't include cites when that wasn't the purpose of the article. The B.C. article didn't include any direct quote from the studies. There was no need to provide a citation. Anything written by anyone other than the original author is a secondary source. That includes you. "Oh- c'mon- how many articles out there do this?" If you include a quote, you need to cite the source. Earlier in the thread you said you have had your work published under peer-review standards. Do these standards allow authors to publish un-referenced quotes they pull out of thin air? Check the Chicago Manual of Style for the rules on quotes. You'll find the rule is what I have said. In the context of you post, it looks like you are referring to the B.C. article. You can't have one set of standards for yourself and demand another set of standards from others. "I understand- until then, we don't have any that give us real hope that ACT does anything more than good old fashioned compost on the ground- at least that we've seen or that have been conclusive." Based on what I've read, since every batch of compost is different and can't be standardized, you can never find the scientific certainty you are hoping for. I don't want to see people taken in by something if it is really useless. The teas I have brewed from my own compost for use in my own garden have proved themselves. My experience is enough reason for me to continue. I encourage people to brew it for themselves and see if it has any benfits in their garden. I've read non-aerated compost teas shows many of the benefits and possible more than ACT. An advantage of ACT is that it is faster to brew. In a short growing season such as mine, it makes sense to brew aerated for two or three days instead of wait two weeks or more for non-aerated brewing. Also, although this again is mere anecdote, I always top dress the garden with regular old compost, but the rich growth doesn't take place until after my ACT application. If you prefer to wait until enough research has been done showing that ACT or even N-ACT is worth the time for you, that's fine....See Moretilling vs. 'lasagna' beds; composting help; new to area - HELP!
Comments (18)You're right, Nan, surfactants are found in lots of products. Soap and detergents are all surfactants - it's actually the surfactant molecules that surround and float dirt/grease molecules away. Guess it also floats the frog's protective slime coat away. Not surprising really. One way the issue around amphibians surfaced was when commercial herbicide was used to kill invasive exotic plants in ponds. The amphibians died - but not because of the active herbicide ingredient, but from the 1ppm surfactant in the herbicide formulation. For this reason, many people would like to see unadulterated herbicides (without other ingredients like surfactants) available to regular folks like us. At this time, for big bucks, professionals can buy the active ingredient in bulk, but smaller, affordable quantities are not marketed. No worry that toothpaste, shampoo, or any surfactants will be banned or limited - we don't ban the fossil fuels that are destroying the ozone layer, so what's a few frogs? In general, we ban things long, long after catastrophic results are obvious, and then we ban specific chemicals only when we have a method to detect that chemical - which is not trivial. Drinking water can legally contain like 2mg/L Total Organic Carbon, but virtually all the EPA monitors is volatile contaminants, which are testable in a GC (found in most labs), and make up typically around 0.2mg/L. So what are we drinking in the other 0.8mg/L? Mmmmmmm. And this attitude, my friends, is born not of a nuts-and-fruits birkinstok-wearing flower-child. It was born of too many years in a chem lab plus working with chemists at EPA labs 20 years ago, and finally standing in my own garden today, looking around and wondering what in the world we have done. I know there's harmful bacteria and fungi in the soil I play in, I eat fast food on occasion, and I know that loving strawberries means I injest a lot of pesticide, so i don't get carried away with all the dangers - if one thing doesn't kill us, another will, that's for sure. i just wish I weren't leaving such a mess for the kids to clean up. Want to get scared of your shampoo, look at the ingredients and then read http://www.ecsu.ctstateu.edu/depts/env_saf/msdspdf/sodium_dodecyl_sulfate_BP166100_Fisher.pdf#search='sodium%20lauryl%20sulfate%20msds' Here is a link that might be useful: one article from many...See MoreUsing The Ruth Stout Gardening
Comments (33)I have worked like crazy getting my Lasagna garden started. I hit a bonanza of cardboard, and have lined 3-40ft beds with it, two in tomatoes, and one across the garden in melons, (all are trellised). I had to throw some dirt on the cardboard to hold it in place, and then added grass clippings on top of that. It doesn't look too bad for starters. I found that when I hosed down the cardboard and got it good and saturated, it was easier to cut openings for my little plant starts, and melon seeds. I am so happy with this idea and glad I've started it. Lots of work up front but I think it will be very rewarding. I don't have access to spoiled hay and the like, but I think I can continue adding more cardboard, soil, clippings and compost and get the same results. Tomorrow will be accumulating more cardboard, and macheting down a bunch of Cannas that are getting too exhuberant, to sandwich in between layers of cardboard, along with some soil. I'm trying to avoid having to buy anything to add to this mix. About the burmuda grass, I keep it completely segregated from my gardening areas. About the only good thing I can say about it is that it now gives me some clippings to mulch the Lasagna bed with. As for the trees bordering my property, maybe the saving grace there is they shade out any burmuda, and drop plenty of leaves in the fall. The downside to them, as I see it, is that even though I am building the Lasagna bed, the tree roots will still be stealing water and nutrients underneath. Fortunately,I still have a wide open area for lots of sunshine in the veggie garden, and have somehow managed to grow nice vegetables. All in all, I still think the Lasagna bed will be my way out to improve my soil and hopefully raise up the level somewhat to help with the Spring wetness problem. Today my son "girdled" a bunch of Lombardy poplars at the back of my property to kill them, and cut off a bunch of lower branches, and started what will eventually become a berm by next spring, along with some trenching to allow run off in other directions, than into my garden the way it has in the past. I really owe everyone here a big thank you and cyber hug. There is no doubt in my mind that, even in spite of a super-saturated spring, and getting a late start, this is going to be the start of a whole new gardening experience for me! Shekanahh...See Moreluckygal
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